Chernobyl - An Accurate Translation

[NJBeliever]

There is no way the seventh bowl and trumpet could be identical. That is not supported by Scripture.

 

[Achilles6129]

However, the sixth seal earthquake and seventh vial earthquake appear to be the same.

That's because they are the same. This is proven by the OT. And, if you add the two together, you see why they are hiding in the mountains during the sixth seal - they are hiding from the great hail that is falling upon them in the seventh vial.

At the moment of the 7th bowl/vial of the 7th seal, because things are numbered in consecutive, sequential, chronological order, six other seals have already been opened, followed by six other trumpets and six other bowls/vials. The 7th bowl/vial and 7th trumpet are the same moment, by the way:
Rev 11
The Seventh Trumpet

15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
"The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
and he will reign for ever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your saints and those who reverence your name,
both small and great—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

You do realize that the sixth seal also says that "the great day of his wrath is come" right? Sixth seal/seventh trumpet/seventh vial are all the same, Jen.

There is no overlap between the seals, trumpets and vials...except the 7th vial and the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal are the exact same moment.

Don't you understand that you're contradicting yourself here? If the 7th vial and the 7th trumpet are the same event, then the vials/trumpets have to be interspersed throughout one another.

The trumpets begin with the 7th seal, after the 6th seal because it says so.

It's written in code and deep allegory, Jen.

AND because the church is given her white robes and is seen in heaven while the 144,000 of Israel are sealed by God on earth at the same moment (the gathering) - the church are given those white robes in the 5th seal because it says so. The 144,000 are seen as sealed and protected through the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal. That establishes the time-frame right there!

The fifth seal deals specifically with those who were slain for refusing to worship the image of the beast, nothing else. Compare the fifth seal with Rev. 20:4.

Another establishment of order of events:

Gog (Northern Army) invades at the time of the 6th seal (when sun/moon darken/stars fall) according to Joel 2. Gog is destroyed by fire, hail and blood which just so happens to be the very next event after the 6th seal - the 1st trumpet of the 7th seal shows an outpouring of fire, hail and blood. Ezek 38 tells us that everyone will know it was God that destroys gog. So, when the devil is cast down and comes to his angry senses, he is "given a key" to the abyss (5th trumpet of 7th seal). Later, in Rev 13 we see the devil's pawn using "fire from heaven" to PROVE he is God. That is no coincidence.

1. There is no proof Gog invades at Joel 2. Although, I believe that Gog refers to the antichrist and his armies, and I have discussed this elsewhere.
2. Fire, hail, and blood also happens at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The relation to the 1st trumpet is unproven. Not to mention, that many other things happen at Gog's destruction that do not happen at the first trumpet (i.e., all the men on the face of the earth shake, mountains thrown down, etc.).
3. The Scriptures nowhere state that the devil is "given the key" to the abyss during the 5th trumpet.
4. Nowhere do the Scriptures state that the false prophet is attempting to prove he is God by fire from heaven.

Rev 12 shows the child caught up and the devil cast down to the earth and chasing the woman. Identifying each of those symbolic characters gives the order of events as well. The woman is spiritual Israel, represented as the 144,000 after giving birth to the child. The child is the church who is caught up at the moment of our birth, out of reach of the devil. That "birth" is the giving of white robes, our glorified bodies. We are dwelling in heaven from that moment on - we are blasphemed by the devil in Rev 13. The dragon of course is the devil. From the time the devil is given his key, he only has his short time of 42 months.

Again, nowhere does it state the devil is "given his key". Nor does it even imply it. And, I will disagree with you on the child being the church - the child is Christ.

The two witnesses and the devil each only have 1260 days. They overlap slightly with the 1260 days of the two witnesses beginning first, around the time of the 6th seal. It is the beast out of the abyss who kills them. That beast comes out of the abyss in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, described as the first woe, where the devil is killing people with his unholy armies.

Are you equating the beast to Apollyon? If so, the comparison is conjecture, and cannot possibly be proven.

The order of Revelation's numbered events is clear. Everything is numbered in their order.

It cannot possibly be. Revelation 14 alone disproves this entire hypothesis, because Revelation 14 speaks of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

"18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." Rev. 14:18-20

There is more than ample Old Testament evidence to prove that this is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. And, there are 7 total Second Comings in the book of Revelation.

Revelation:

1. Seals 1-4 (great tribulation - began at the ascension of Christ, subsequent desolation of Israel and continues to this day)

Unproven.

2. Seal 5 (rapture - the moment when the church is given her "garments of righteousness", her "white robes" that are "washed in the blood of the Lamb")

Cannot possibly be proven. The fifth seal, according to the Scriptures, is the death of those who have refused to worship the image of the beast (see Rev. 20:4).

3. Seal 6 (gog invasion - no flesh would survive unless cut short)

4. Seal #7 (trumpets 1-6, bowls 1-6, trumpet 7/bowl 7)

Again, impossible to prove.

5. Christ comes on the clouds and destroys all the evil, especially those who have gathered to war against him from the 6th bowl of the 7th seal.

This Second Coming is spoken of 7 times throughout Revelation. Modern christianity misses most of those 7 times.

But you are jumping on one word with the Euphrates thing and assuming they are the same moment. In the 6th trumpet, the angels bound at the Euphrates are loosed. In the 6th bowl, the Euphrates dries up. Two different events!

Well, not to be offensive, but you have jumped on one word in many places and assumed they are the same event. While it is possible they are different events, it is reasonable to assume that the 6th vial is the gathering of the beast's armies, and the 6th trumpet is those armies in action. It makes sense, but it does not have to be true, necessarily.

With the 6th seal, the islands and mountains are moved from their places and in the 7th bowl, the mountains and islands are not found! Big difference!

Not really, Jen. Two different ways of describing the same thing. Plus, the OT proves the 6th seal is the Second Coming of Christ to destroy the beast + his armies.

It's like saying that the 2nd trumpet, which turns 1/3 of sea to blood and kills 1/3 of creatures/ships, is the same moment of the 2nd bowl when the sea turns to blood and EVERY LIVING CREATURE in the sea dies. It's not the same moment. There is a remarkable difference - in one moment, 1/3 turns to blood and 1/3 of creatures die, but in the 2nd moment, all of it turns to blood and all creatures die. God is giving people chance after chance to repent and choose Him.

The two events are obviously related. The 2nd trumpet is 1/3 the sea, and then the 2nd vial is a continuation of that judgment.

Revelation is most definitely in sequential, consecutive, chronological order BECAUSE the seals, trumpets and bowls are NUMBERED.

Already been disproven. Even you mentioned that the seventh trumpet/seventh vial are one and the same, which disproves the numbering hypothesis.

Were the ten plagues out of order? NO Does God change or lie? NO

Apples to oranges.

There is no way the seventh bowl and trumpet could be identical. That is not supported by Scripture.

It is entirely supported by Scripture. But we have already had this debate before

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Achilles, I just saw you responded with a long post. I will get back to you soon. You have misunderstood a great deal.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Can time be finished if the vial (bowl) judgements haven't begun?

Can the mystery of God be finished if the vial (bowl) judgements haven't begun?

The bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets of the 7th seal.

The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are one and the same.

Revelation is like this:

A 7-sealed scroll:
1. Seals 1-4 opened, consecutively together at the ascension of Christ who sent them out, after appearing heaven as the "slain lamb". And yes, this can be proven with scriptures.
2. Seals 5-7 opened consecutively together as Christ is returning. And yes, this can also be proven with scriptures.

Seal #7 of that scroll looks like this:
1. Trumpets 1-6
2. Bowls 1-6
3. Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 which are the same

More later...gotta go for now

 

[HisdaughterJen]

That's because they are the same. This is proven by the OT. And, if you add the two together, you see why they are hiding in the mountains during the sixth seal - they are hiding from the great hail that is falling upon them in the seventh vial.

It says at the time of the opening of the 6th seal of that scroll:

Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Think about that for a moment. The sun/moon have darkened/stars fallen, great earthquake, the church has disappeared (5th seal). Everyone knows that it's GOD and His Day of Wrath who has come - everyone!
They are hiding in their caves, no mention of hail at this point, and asking, "For the great day of his wrath is come (meaning, "is here") and who SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?" "Shall be able" is future tense.

You do realize that the sixth seal also says that "the great day of his wrath is come" right? Sixth seal/seventh trumpet/seventh vial are all the same, Jen.

See previous explanation.

Don't you understand that you're contradicting yourself here? If the 7th vial and the 7th trumpet are the same event, then the vials/trumpets have to be interspersed throughout one another.

No, the bowls (vials) come AFTER the 6th trumpet/between the 6th and 7th trumpets. The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are one and the same. It's the end of the wrath - hail, earthquake, "it is done".

It's written in code and deep allegory, Jen.

The fifth seal deals specifically with those who were slain for refusing to worship the image of the beast, nothing else. Compare the fifth seal with Rev. 20:4.

No, you have ADDED that to Rev 6. It says no such thing. In fact, it tells the martyrs who are calling out to God for justice to wait before that justice comes because MORE martyrs have yet to happen. The only martyrs AFTER the giving of white robes (glorified bodies) in the 5th seal are those who die at the hands of the anti-christ during the 7th seal.



more answers to your post in next post.

 

[Achilles6129]

The bowls are between the 6th and 7th trumpets of the 7th seal.

I suppose that is possible, but I think it is very unlikely. I think that they are more widely interspersed throughout the trumpets.

The 7th bowl and the 7th trumpet are one and the same.

Quite right.

Revelation is like this:

A 7-sealed scroll:
1. Seals 1-4 opened, consecutively together at the ascension of Christ who sent them out, after appearing heaven as the "slain lamb". And yes, this can be proven with scriptures.
2. Seals 5-7 opened consecutively together as Christ is returning. And yes, this can also be proven with scriptures.

Seal #7 of that scroll looks like this:
1. Trumpets 1-6
2. Bowls 1-6
3. Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 which are the same

Hmm..well I disagree with some of this and agree with other parts. You believe that seals 5-7 are the rapture? I definitely disagree with that.

Trumpets/bowls I think are interspersed more widely. But you are 100% correct about the trumpet 7 and bowl 7 being the same. Add the sixth seal to that too

 

[HisdaughterJen]

1. There is no proof Gog invades at Joel 2. Although, I believe that Gog refers to the antichrist and his armies, and I have discussed this elsewhere.

The Northern army invasion of Joel 2 is definitely gog. It cannot be the anti-christ because the anti-christ isn't even on the stage until the 7th seal is opened. The Northern army invasion (gog) happens at the time of the sun/moon darkening/stars falling/earthquake, because it says so. That is the 6th seal and the very same moment that Jesus described in Matt 24 and that invasion at that moment is the reason the tribulation (which we have been in (4 seals) since the ascension of Christ ) is cut short for the sake of the elect.

2. Fire, hail, and blood also happens at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ. The relation to the 1st trumpet is unproven. Not to mention, that many other things happen at Gog's destruction that do not happen at the first trumpet (i.e., all the men on the face of the earth shake, mountains thrown down, etc.).

Yes, and the 2nd coming of Christ begins when the church is removed in the 5th seal, at the same moment that gog's armies are invading in the 6th seal, followed by th 7th seal full of wrath! It's ALL the return of Christ, leading up to His coming on the clouds!

It is no coincidence that there is a Northern army invasion at the time of the sun/moon darkening/stars falling/earthquake (Joel 2) which is the 6th seal and the very next moment is fire, hail and blood (trumpet 1 of 7th seal) which just so happens to be what destroys GOG!

3. The Scriptures nowhere state that the devil is "given the key" to the abyss during the 5th trumpet.

Revelation 9

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


You don't think that is symbolically speaking of the devil?

4. Nowhere do the Scriptures state that the false prophet is attempting to prove he is God by fire from heaven.

Gee, lets see about that:

When gog invades in the 6th seal (sun/moon darken/stars fall), and is subsequently destroyed by God in the 1st trumpet of the 7th seal (hail, fire, blood), everyone KNOWS God did it and they give glory to God according to Ezek 38/39.

Then, the anti-christ steps forward, claiming to be God, with lying wonders. So, what kind of false miracles are going to convince people that he is God?


2 Thess 2: 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

And what is one of the lying wonders that the Bible says he does?

Rev 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

Why, oh why, would making fire come down from heaven in full view of men make people believe that he is God?...unless that's what God used to destroy gog (which everyone credits God for).

 

[Achilles6129]

It says at the time of the opening of the 6th seal of that scroll:

Rev 6:17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Think about that for a moment. The sun/moon have darkened/stars fallen, great earthquake, the church has disappeared (5th seal). Everyone knows that it's GOD and His Day of Wrath who has come - everyone!
They are hiding in their caves, no mention of hail at this point, and asking, "For the great day of his wrath is come (meaning, "is here") and who SHALL BE ABLE TO STAND?" "Shall be able" is future tense.

Oh, Jen. No it isn't It's actually present tense:

Here's the interlinear (from http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev6.pdf):

Greek: kai tis dunatai stathenai
Literal: and any (who?) is-able to-be-stood

" 17for (AT)the great day of their wrath has come, and (AU)who is able to stand?" Rev. 6:17 (NASB)

"17because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?" Rev. 6:17 (YLT)

It is present tense, Jen. And even if it were "shall", "shall" can still be talking about an event presently happening.

No, you have ADDED that to Rev 6. It says no such thing. In fact, it tells the martyrs who are calling out to God for justice to wait before that justice comes because MORE martyrs have yet to happen. The only martyrs AFTER the giving of white robes (glorified bodies) in the 5th seal are those who die at the hands of the anti-christ during the 7th seal.

Jen, the martyrs of the 5th seal have died at the hands of the AC for refusing to worship his image. Compare:

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: " Rev. 6:9

"4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Again, nowhere does it state the devil is "given his key". Nor does it even imply it.

Wasn't the devil referred to as a star in the old testament, symbolically?

Isa 14:12How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

We know that the stars that are cast down with the devil are fallen angels, and we know that Revelation is full of symbolism matching the Old Testament, so...

"Given a key" is symbolism referring to "given power". The only fallen angel/devil given power in Revelation is the devil.

And, I will disagree with you on the child being the church - the child is Christ.

The child can only be one of two things, Scripturally - Jesus or the church. Given the timing of the events of Rev 12 as well as the fact that Jesus refers to the church in the same manner (ruling with a rod of iron/sitting on his throne) in Rev 2 and 3, the child is definitely the church!

Are you equating the beast to Apollyon? If so, the comparison is conjecture, and cannot possibly be proven.

Rev11: 7And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Rev 9:
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

I don't know if "apollyon" is the beast. It says apollyon is king over the things in pit.

 

[Achilles6129]

The Northern army invasion of Joel 2 is definitely gog. It cannot be the anti-christ because the anti-christ isn't even on the stage until the 7th seal is opened. The Northern army invasion (gog) happens at the time of the sun/moon darkening/stars falling/earthquake, because it says so. That is the 6th seal and the very same moment that Jesus described in Matt 24 and that invasion at that moment is the reason the tribulation (which we have been in (4 seals) since the ascension of Christ ) is cut short for the sake of the elect.

Antichrist is on the stage back in the 5th seal, as is proven by comparison of the 5th seal to Rev. 20:4.

However, I have to look at Joel 2 more closely. So for now I will not comment on what you have said. However, I strongly suspect that Gog is the antichrist, and if so, you are unwittingly making my point But I will study Joel 2 in a little bit more detail.

Yes, and the 2nd coming of Christ begins when the church is removed in the 5th seal, at the same moment that gog's armies are invading in the 6th seal, followed by th 7th seal full of wrath! It's ALL the return of Christ, leading up to His coming on the clouds!

There is no evidence the church is removed at the 5th seal. We're just going to have to disagree.

Revelation 9

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.


You don't think that is symbolically speaking of the devil?

No, and here's the reason why. Satan is cast out at the beginning (or near) of the great tribulation. This verse happens during the great tribulation. Unless John is somehow going back in time, or something. But I do not see that verse as being symbolic of Satan.

Rev 13:13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast;

Why, oh why, would making fire come down from heaven in full view of men make people believe that he is God?...unless that's what God used to destroy gog (which everyone credits God for).

So you are saying that God destroying Gog by fire will actually be made out to appear as though the false prophet has destroyed Gog by fire. This cannot be, however, since Rev. 13 emphatically states that HE (the false prophet) makes fire come down from heaven to earth in the sight of men. The false prophet himself does these things. In Ezekiel 38, it is God who does the things described. So it cannot be true.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Oh, Jen. No it isn't It's actually present tense:

Here's the interlinear (from http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/rev6.pdf):

Greek: kai tis dunatai stathenai
Literal: and any (who?) is-able to-be-stood

" 17for (AT)the great day of their wrath has come, and (AU)who is able to stand?" Rev. 6:17 (NASB)

"17because come did the great day of His anger, and who is able to stand?" Rev. 6:17 (YLT)

It is present tense, Jen. And even if it were "shall", "shall" can still be talking about an event presently happening.

Present tense or future tense, the people are asking, WHO CAN STAND because of the wrath of God?

You are forgetting that there is an entire 7th seal AFTER the 6th seal. It is absurd to think that items which are numbered, numbered by GOD no less, are somehow out of order.

And then there's this:

Joel 2:31The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.

Jen, the martyrs of the 5th seal have died at the hands of the AC for refusing to worship his image. Compare:

"9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: " Rev. 6:9

"4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4

The 5th seal martyrs who are calling out for justice who are given white robes are representing the church and the timing of the giving of glorified bodies and the catching away to the throne of God. The reason, that I can see, that God used them in the 5th seal description is because of their question, which they are continually asking..."WHEN WILL I BE AVENGED???" God says, NOT YET, BUT SOON, MORE MARTYRS HAVE TO HAPPEN.

Luk 18:7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

In Revelation, the only people who are dying for Christ AFTER the 5th seal, when the church (including the martyrs) are given their white robes (glorified bodies/robes of righteousness washed in the blood of the lamb) are those who die at the hands of the beast/devil/antichrist during the 7th seal.

That verse you quoted in Rev 20 is describing, not the martyrs of the 5th seal who cry out for justice, but those who died at the hands of the beast!

 

[NightHawkeye]

Rev 9:
11And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

I don't know if "apollyon" is the beast. It says apollyon is king over the things in pit.

Apollyon translates to Destroyer.

Curiously, Saddam also means Destroyer.
Rev 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Sound familiar?

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Cannot possibly be proven. The fifth seal, according to the Scriptures, is the death of those who have refused to worship the image of the beast (see Rev. 20:4).

And yet, that's not what it says AT ALL!

Rev 6:9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.



Nutshell version:

Fifth seal of 7-sealed scroll opened. There are martyrs crying out (under the altar, not before throne) to be avenged. White robes (symbolic of clothes of righteousness/glorified bodies) were given to them and they are told to wait to be avenged until more martyrs happen.

The only people who die for Christ as martyrs after this event are those who die at the hands of the anti-christ in the 7th seal, before final judgment.


The action of the 5th seal is not death, not martyrdom, it's the giving of the white robes. The people crying out for justice are already dead, already martyrs! They are part of the church who cry out for justice!

Luk 18:7And will not God bring about justice for his chosen ones, who cry out to him day and night? Will he keep putting them off?

Then, in the very next chapter of Revelation we see a WHITE ROBED innumerable multitude STANDING BEFORE THE THRONE who have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb - that, Achilles, is the church! The washing of robes is referencing Exodus 19:10-20 where God tells Moses to consecrate the people for two days (today and tomorrow - BIG CLUE THERE) and have them wash their clothes and then He would come.


Furthermore, it is impossible for the 5th seal martyrs to be those who die at the hands of the anti-christ because the devil doesn't even get his 42 months of power until the 7th seal!

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Besides that, Achilles, and this PROVES YOU WRONG, if the 5th seal martyrs are those who die at the hands of the beast, then why does God say, MORE MARTYRS MUST STILL COME IN????????????????

The 5th seal martyrs are doing their thing NOW. They are those who have currently died as martyrs and are crying out to be avenged. THE MORE MARTYRS for which the 5th seal martyrs are told to be patient before vengeance are those who die at the hands of the beast, after the 5th seal, proving my point correct.

 

[Spirit Compass]

There has been no event in recorded human history in which 1/3 of the trees and grass on the earth were burnt up. So at that point, this interpretation fails.

Cultures prior to the modern age relied on written documents and story telling to transfer knowledge. A literary technique known as synecdoche is a literary style that is part of the Revelation. Using the 1/3 is a symbol for what was seen. If you've watched the Weather Channel regarding forest fires in the USA, for example, modern technology shows a topographical sky view showing which states have raging fires, and where the smoke is being blown by wind currents. This is not exaggeration, it is a reporting technique. The fires in the Rocky Mountain states and California in the 90's showed 1/3 of the USA being affected by the burning and smoke of the fires, in which even the green grass was burned.

It is certain that when John saw the events of the vial judgements he wrote in the style that includes synecdoche, which comes from the Greek language. Since John wrote the Revelation while imprisoned on the Isle of Patmos, a Greek Island, it seems that he wrote in a style that would have been known and understood at that time.

 

[Spirit Compass]

Apollyon translates to Destroyer.

Curiously, Saddam also means Destroyer.
Rev 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit."

Sound familiar?

In support of this interpretation of the name Apollyon from Greek to English, and then with reference to Saddam, it should be understood from the reading of the 5th Vial Judgement that the location of the Beast is on earth, in the earth, and involves warfare. Saddam was captured in a hole in the ground. The city of Baghdad was bombarded with more artillery shells, bombs, missiles and rockets, and air attack support than all of that used by the U.S. Armed Forces in WWII. The sun and and the air were darkened by the smoke of destruction, which was poured out on the entire city. This invasion and occupation of Iraq followed the invasion and air assault on another enemy who also lived in a bottomless pit, and was permitted to escape. Both invasions included air-to-ground missile strikes and bombing sortees. Read about the vial judgement/plague here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7472181/ Seven Angels and Seven Last Plagues.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

In support of this interpretation of the name Apollyon from Greed to English, and then with reference to Saddam, it should be understood from the reading of the 5th Vial Judgement that the location of the Beast is on earth, in the earth, and involves warfare. Saddam was captured in a hole in the ground. The city of Baghdad was bombarded with more artillery shells, bombs, missiles and rockets, and air attack support than all of that used by the U.S. Armed Forces in WWII. The sun and and the air were darkened by the smoke of destruction, which was poured out on the entire city. This invasion and occupation of Iraq followed the invasion and air assault on another enemy who also lived in a bottomless pit, and was permitted to escape. Both invasions included air-to-ground missile strikes and bombing sortees. Read about the vial judgement/plague here: http://www.christianforums.com/t7472181/ Seven Angels and Seven Last Plagues.

That's all well and good but the 5th trumpet is during the wrath of God. It hasn't happened yet. This is just like people trying to associate the oil spill with the seas turning red. When the Day of God's Wrath begins, everyone will know it and it will be obvious.

 

[NightHawkeye]

That's all well and good but the 5th trumpet is during the wrath of God.

Opinion. It may even be a majority opinion, Jen, I'll grant you that. Still, doesn't make it the correct interpretation.

It hasn't happened yet. This is just like people trying to associate the oil spill with the seas turning red.

We do know that the Chernobyl disaster happened. We know that Chernobyl translates to Wormwood. We also know that the description of the 3rd trumpet accurately matches that of the Chernobyl disaster.

As for the 5th trumpet, let's look at the evidence:
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Clearly, this description is an accurate representation of the scene when Saddam torched the oil wells in Kuwait. Some younger members on this board may not have been around at the time to see the pictures on TV, and in newspapers and magazines, but I still remember it well. Anyone who hasn't seen the pictures should look them up on the internet.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Facts:
1) Saddam's name literally means Destroyer (or Apollyon). This name is not a result of his military actions. Apparently, his birth was so protracted and horrible for his mother that she named him "Destroyer".
2) Kuwait invasion: 2 August 1990
3) US counter-invasion: 17 January 1991
This is exactly five months and 15 days. Prophetic, yes?
4) Saddam ravaged Kuwait during this time. Many (most) Kuwaitis fled the country.
5) The descriptions of locusts have been equated by many with military helicopters.

 

[Spirit Compass]

That's all well and good but the 5th trumpet is during the wrath of God. It hasn't happened yet. This is just like people trying to associate the oil spill with the seas turning red. When the Day of God's Wrath begins, everyone will know it and it will be obvious.

For you then the Fifth Trumpet and Vial Judgement do not refer to modern warfare of the 20th and 21st Century. You then refer to the oil spill, which is really biotic poisoning {BP} of the sea, and you cannot see that as another of the vial judgements!

You also state that everyone will know the wrath. Have you ever heard the song, 'Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord?" That is a song of wrath written and sung during the American Civil War. Why would the writer of that song choose symbolism and wording from the Bible associated with the wrath of God? You do not believe that warfare is wrath. Those who have lived in it and through it know is both as hell and wrath.

The harvest has already begun. The vial judgements have already been poured out on the earth, and are continuing to be revealed to those who hear the trumpet.

 

[HisdaughterJen]

Opinion. It may even be a majority opinion, Jen, I'll grant you that. Still, doesn't make it the correct interpretation.


We do know that the Chernobyl disaster happened. We know that Chernobyl translates to Wormwood. We also know that the description of the 3rd trumpet accurately matches that of the Chernobyl disaster.

As for the 5th trumpet, let's look at the evidence:
Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

Clearly, this description is an accurate representation of the scene when Saddam torched the oil wells in Kuwait. Some younger members on this board may not have been around at the time to see the pictures on TV, and in newspapers and magazines, but I still remember it well. Anyone who hasn't seen the pictures should look them up on the internet.

3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
7 And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men.
8 And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions.
9 And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle.
10And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months.
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

Facts:
1) Saddam's name literally means Destroyer (or Apollyon). This name is not a result of his military actions. Apparently, his birth was so protracted and horrible for his mother that she named him "Destroyer".
2) Kuwait invasion: 2 August 1990
3) US counter-invasion: 17 January 1991
This is exactly five months and 15 days. Prophetic, yes?
4) Saddam ravaged Kuwait during this time. Many (most) Kuwaitis fled the country.
5) The descriptions of locusts have been equated by many with military helicopters.

The events of Revelation are NUMBERED for a reason. GOD NUMBERED them. One comes before two, two before three, and so forth. To pull events from history and try to make them fit is rediculous. It's like saying the earthquake in 2005 was satan falling to the earth. This is how cults get started.