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Chernobyl - An Accurate Translation

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by NightHawkeye, Jul 7, 2010.

  1. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    What's in a name?. Happy names like rose and daisy can be found in streets, towns and cities everywhere – regardless of language. Even non-flowering plant names like fern, oak and cat-tails are common. Unpleasant names like mugwort and wormwood are much less common. Such names are rarely used except when negative connotations are deliberate, such as Wormwood Scrubs prison in England.

    "Chernobyl Fallout: Apocalyptic Tale" was published by the New York Times on July 25, 1986. Claiming Chernobyl translated to Wormwood, potentially making it the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, Serge Schermann failed to substantiate his sources and his story was largely discredited.

    Armed with a couple of years of prior Russian language study, I decided to pursue original sources and dig deeper into the matter recently. Here are the verifiable facts:

    1) Chernobyl and chornobyl are Russian and Ukranian words meaning literally "black stalks", referring to artemisia vulgaris – four-foot high grassy plants known in English as mugwort or "common wormwood".
    2) Chornobyl (Чорнобиль) was the Ukranian city lending its name to the reactor.
    3) Wormwood, according to my 1984 (note this pre-dates the meltdown) Merriam-Webster Dictionary is Artemisia, esp. Artemisia absinthium. The definition explicitly encompasses all varieties of Artemisia.
    4) Mugwort (artemisia vulgaris) is closely related to artemisia absinthium, both genetically and in physical appearance.
    5) Curiously, mugwort was not listed in my Merriam-Webster dictionary of nearly 160,000 words, underscoring the fact that it is best known as "common wormwood".
    6) Prior to 1986 both Russian and Ukranian dictionaries included wormwood as a secondary definition for chernobyl/chornobyl and many internet translators still translate chernobyl into wormwood.
    7) Wormwood acquired its name because of its ability to act as a "de-wormer" (i.e., expelling intestinal worm infestations). The de-worming ability extends throughout various artemisia species.
    8) Polyn' ("полин" in Ukrainian or "полын" in Russian) is the primary term in Russian for artemisia absinthium or wormwood.
    9) Pelyněk černobýl is the Czech name for artemisia vulgaris (i.e., mugwort) and translates literally as wormwood vulgaris, thus helping to explain the relationship between and origins of both polyn' and chernobyl.
    10) Perhaps the most observable difference between mugwort and wormwood is whether the stalks are green or whether the stalks are dark green.
    11) Apsinthos (Aψινθος), the Greek word found in the earliest surviving Revelation manuscripts, means "bitter like wormwood". Although often used to describe artemisia absinthia, "wormwood" is not an exact literal translation.
    12) Historical translations include "Bitter" from the 1969 Worldwide English New Testament and "Wormwood (footnote - that is, Bitter)" from the 1973, 1984 New International Version of the Bible. Both of these predate the Chernobyl meltdown.
    13) The world's oldest surviving Bible, the Codex Sinaiticus (available online) uses the Greek name Apsinthion (Aψίνθιον), a broadly encompassing term meaning "of the nature of absinthia. (Note: Some claim there is evidence of this word having been changed from Apsinthos.)
    14) Only one of the many apocalyptic events described in Revelation was assigned a proper noun as a name (an obscure name at that).

    The facts indicate that Chernobyl is an accurate translation for the term Wormwood, as used in the third trumpet prophecy of Revelation, regardless of whether one translates from original manuscripts or English language texts. Counter-arguments claiming Chernobyl isn't a good translation fail when subjected to scrutiny.

    One question needing to be answered though is: What are the odds that an obscure name used in the Bible just happens to match the name of the city where one of the worst man-made disasters in history occurred? The odds of a mere coincidence would seem to be, mathematically speaking, extremely remote.

    A more substantive counter-argument is that the Chernobyl disaster doesn't fit the description given of the third trumpet prophecy. That argument loses merit though when one examines the passage critically. Although often interpreted as a literal star, asteroid or comet falling to earth, it's worth considering that the later fifth trumpet "star" is an obvious figurative star, thereby lending further credence to Chernobyl as the third trumpet prophecy.

    15) As with English, both the Greek and Aramaic words for star have multiple meanings.
    16) The Greek word ἀστήρ means not only star and famous, but also strewn over the sky - fitting terminology for the Chernobyl explosion and radioactive fallout which heavily contaminated thousands of square miles of land in the Ukraine, Belarus and Russia, much of which will be uninhabitable for thousands of years.
    17) An ever-increasing body of evidence suggests that the New Testament may have been originally written in Aramaic (i.e., the language Mel Gibson used in "Passion of the Christ") rather than Greek. The Aramaic word for star, kwkb, can be both noun and verb - for example, to be made a star, an interesting association since that definition applies literally to what happened at Chernobyl.

    Wormwood is one of the important clues in Revelation. It stands uniquely alone among the events of Revelation in that it was given a name. Though perhaps not a unique name, the unarguable fact is that the name Wormwood is one which is rarely used. Adding further unique identification is the fact that it is a proper noun rather than a common noun.

    Ultimately, one needs to form one's own conclusion as to whether Chernobyl fits the prophecy of Revelation. For me, the book of Revelation took on new meaning when viewed from a 20th/21st century perspective.
     
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  2. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    I was first told this meaning for Chernobyl by a Russian friend some years ago. He had no idea why this news excited Christians so much, but having learned that it did, he relished in telling them.

    But I never thought that the Chernobyl accident was the third trumpet. Instead, I concluded that by calling it Chernobyl (in Russian) the Holy Spirit was giving moderns a hint as to the true meaning of the third trumpet, that is, that it referred to a nuclear explosion. As it burned up a third of the world's commerce, the Chernobyl accident, though very serious, fell far short of meeting the description. But the United States controls approximately a third of the world's commerce and is nowhere else mentioned in the Revelation. I concluded that the third trumpet probably signified a nuclear destruction of the United States.

    Note that I said "probably." This is most absolutely not something I would argue about. It is just an opinion.
     
  3. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Seems a bit harsh ... Killing the two witnesses brings about only 7000 deaths.

    Revelation 11:
    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
    13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the eqrthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14 The second woe is past; and behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

    Note that the first woe ocurred earlier after the fifth trumpet in Revelation 9:
    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    12 One woe is past; and behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
    13 And the sixth angel sounded ...
     
  4. Biblewriter

    Biblewriter Senior Member Supporter

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    But at this time, God has begun to judge the earth for its wickedness. There is no nation on earth which has ever had the gospel so fully and almost universally proclaimed as the United States. Therefore those Americans who do not accept the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ are among the most guilty in the entire world.
     
  5. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    I've had similar thoughts, but God doesn't pour out his wrath unnecessarily. Revelation reveals something like what you refer to happening later during the seventh vial (bowl) judgement.

    Revelation 16:
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
     
  6. NJBeliever

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    I agree that the translation is correct but it is not the third trumpet. For one, the first 2 trumpets which precede have clearly not happened in recorded human history. Secondly, the third trumpet is a star hitting the Earth, not an explosion or meltdown. It's a burning star that hits the water and contaminates one third of the water on the Earth. This just did not happen with Chrenobyl.
     
  7. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    OK. Let's look at what has happened in recent human history ...

    Revelation 8:
    7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

    As has been pointed out recently, trumpets historically declare wars. The 20th century saw massive wars.

    Might WWI or WWII fit all the criteria? WWII with massive air raids and bombings clearly meets the "hail and fire mingled with blood" criterion. It also meets the "third part of trees burnt up" criterion. Arguably, WWI might meet these criteria as well.

    Is "all green grass was burnt up" met? Ever seen a WWI movie? The earth is always scorched during the trench warfare scenes. The reason is that the earth was scorched during WWI.

    Now, back to Revelation 8:
    8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;
    9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

    This sounds very much like WWII. Aircraft carriers are massive and many were sunk during WWII. Much blood was spilled in the oceans, and about a third of the ships were destroyed. No doubt, many creatures in the oceans unnecessarily perished as well.

    As I pointed out earlier, the word star, has multiple meanings. Perhaps the easiest way to demonstrate this is by looking at the fifth trumpet, which I merely alluded to earlier.

    Revelation 9:
    1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    Star, in this instance is subsequently revealed to be a "king".
    11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit ...

    I earlier showed three valid alternative definitions for star. There are actually more ...
     
  8. NJBeliever

    NJBeliever Newbie

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    There has been no event in recorded human history in which 1/3 of the trees and grass on the earth were burnt up. So at that point, this interpretation fails.
     
  9. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Well, you appear to be reading much more into the first trumpet than I do.

    The verse does not say over the entire earth. Is that a reasonable assumption to make? There are some clues provided. For example, the fourth trumpet preceeds all three woes:

    Revelation 8:
    12 And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.
    13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

    Assuming the trumpets and woes are in order of increasing severity (which seems to be a common assumption), then the extent of the first trumpets is limited.

    The fifth trumpet war is the first woe. Revelation 9:
    11 And they had a king over them which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
    12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.


    The second woe comes later, after the two witnesses die, but kills only 7000 people. Revelation 11:
    13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly
    .

    Clearly, perspective is important. If the subsequent second woe kills only 7000 people, should the first trumpet necessarily be over the entire earth?
     
  10. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    Killing the two witnesses does not bring about ONLY 7000 deaths.

    Here:

    Rev 16:5Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say: "You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged;
    Rev 16:6for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve."

    It does a lot more than that. All the evil is destroyed after the two witnesses are killed in the final judgments of His Great Wrath. That WRATH is EVERYTHING in the 7th seal (trumpets and bowls), followed by Christ coming on the clouds with His army to destroy.

    Chernobyl may or may not refer to a nuclear meltdown.

    What do you think would happen when God's massive earthquakes make the earth reel? What happens to the nuclear power plants in a massive earthquake?
     
  11. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Hi Jen,

    Thanks for the contribution. I tend to agree with much of your post, but I need to be clear that's just my opinion. Scripture provides specificity in only some places. There have been numerous interpretations involving your reference.

    The number 7000 is the specific number of men (/women?) killed in the "great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt".

    Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    To put the number 7000 into perspective, nearly all the major battles of World War I and World War II involved much larger numbers of deaths. Total deaths in World War I is estimated at 37 million. Total deaths in World War II is "innumerable" by human standards. We have only very rough estimates for the number of deaths in World War II. Some estimates are over 70 million.

    God's creations, each one. We seem to have forgotten them. Has God?

    These deaths were at the hand of men though, not God. That's an important distinction. The 7000 are "slain" by God.

    Even after the sixth trumpet mankind still doesn't get God's message ...
    Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk.
    Rev9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

    You seem to be linking the deaths of the two witnesses with all God's wrath at one time. That's an opinion. The events, however, are clearly and definitively separated in Revelation. My opinion is that the distinctions are important.

    Again, your opinion. I would argue that the distinctions between these which are made in Revelation are important discriminators intended to allow both insights and understanding. But again, that's my opinion.

    Rev 14:20 ... and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
     
  12. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    You and I agree that each trumpet and bowl is distinctive. The wrath of God begins when the sun/moon darken/stars fall according to Joel 2 and Rev 6. The entire seventh seal is the outpouring of the wrath of God - that seventh seal includes the trumpets, the beasts, and the bowls, Scripturally.

    Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.


    Rev 6:12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    ...

    Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?



    Wormwood/Chernobyl might indicate something nuclear. But a meteor could cause a nuclear explosion, no man-made nuclear involvement necessary.

    Tunguska event - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The Tunguska Impact--100 Years Later - NASA Science

    Rev 8:10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

    Rev 8:11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

    I am not saying the Tunguska event fulfills the 3rd trumpet of the 7th seal but rather establishes a precedent that a meteor could cause a nuclear (Wormwood/Chernobyl) event, just as is described in the 3rd trumpet event of the 7th seal of the scroll.
     
  13. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Jen,

    Thanks again for the considered response and taking the time to substantiate your arguments.

    Great! This is the point of contention. As others on this board have pointed out recently, Revelation is not in sequential (or chronological) order. Unresolvable contradictions appear when sequential order is assumed.

    Only one of two possible assumptions about Revelation can be correct. Either Revelation is in chronological order or, like a fascinating book with intertwined stories, it jumps around in time.

    Looking first at the beginning of the bowl judgements of Revelation 16:
    1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.

    Obviously, all seven vial (bowl) judgements are included in the wrath of God.

    This contrasts with the seals where, as you pointed out, the wrath of God didn't begin until after the sixth seal was opened. Revelation 6:
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake ...
    ...
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand?


    Notice that the sixth seal begins with a great earthquake. Yet, in the vial judgements, that same great earthquake doesn't start until the seventh vial. Revelation 16:
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.


    The six preceding vial (bowl) judgements occur prior to the great earthquake, hence, they must also occur prior to the sixth seal which opens with the great eqrthquake. This contradiction alone shows that Revelation is not in sequential order. There are other contradictions as well.

    Since Revelation is not in sequential order then one must look for other evidence to determine whether or not an event is part of God's wrath. As presented earlier that other evidence indicates that the trumpets are largely the handiwork of man rather than part of God's wrath being poured out upon mankind.

    Yes, but why look for fanciful interpretations when one of the worst manmade disasters in history fulfills the prophecy.

    Please do let me know of any inaccuracies here. My intention was to be absolutely accurate. Thanks.
     
  14. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    I typed out a long, detailed response and then lost it...UGH!

    Anyway, there is more than one earthquake in Revelation. There's no reason to assume all the earthquakes in Revelation are one and the same.

    And, when things are numbered, as the seals, trumpets, (woes), and bowls are, they are most definitely sequential, consecutive, chronological in nature.

    The seals are on a 7-sealed scroll, written on both sides (also described in Zechariah) and is describing the events of the judgment and wrath of God on Israel, the world, and the devil.

    The first four seals were opened consecutively together after the ascension of Christ, who is the only one worthy to open the sealed scroll, since he died for all who believe (Rev's slain lamb description). They have been riding ever since. Christ sent them out. They are described in Zech 1 and 6 as well. They are of God, and have nothing to do with the devil as is commonly taught.

    The last three seals will be opened consecutively together as Christ is returning, and the wrath begins. After all the seals have been opened and the events of those seals have taken place, then Christ comes on the clouds and destroys all who have chosen unwisely.

    The 7th seal is the wrath of God. It, too, is in sequential order because it's numbered. It looks like this:
    1. Trumpets 1-6 (trumpets 5, 6, 7 are described as the "woes")
    2. Bowls 1-6
    3. Trumpet 7/Bowl 7 which are identical.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  15. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Yep, don't ya just hate it when that happens ...

    Agreed.

    However, the sixth seal earthquake and seventh vial earthquake appear to be the same.

    Rev 6:
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Revelation 11
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    You have presented no evidence or arguments to refute what was shown in my last post, Jen.

    It is only true that the seals are in sequential order, the trumpets are in sequential order, the vials (bowls) are in sequential order and the woes are in sequential order. There is demonstrated overlap between the seals, trumpets and vials.

    You clearly have strong opinions, Jen. I believe we are both after the same thing though - the truth. Back it up with scripture rather than proclamations based on opinion. When the evidence is out in the open, it's easy enough to sort through and find the truth.
     
  16. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    LOL! Yes, I have strong opinions... ;)

    Look closely at the two scriptures you quoted that you are claiming are the same event. I'll requote them:

    Rev 6:
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Revelation 16
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



    In the 6th seal, there's an earthquake and people hide saying, "the great day of His wrath has come, and who SHALL BE ABLE to stand".

    In the 7th bowl of the seal that FOLLOWS the 6th seal, namely the 7th seal, "IT IS DONE".

    The outpouring of wrath is a little over 42 months long before final destruction. God is giving people a chance to save their own lives for eternity, even if they die during this time.

    What you are seeing in Rev 6 and Revelation 16 is the beginning and the near-ending of the wrath of God.
     
  17. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    In Rev 6, when the 6th seal has been opened, there is a darkening of the sun/moon and stars falling along with an earthquake. This is what Jesus described in Matt 24. This happens at the end of the nearly 2000 year tribulation which every Christian has endured (first four seals) or else no one would survive. The reason no one would survive, Jesus was talking to Israel, is because of the gog invasion that happens at that exact moment. See Joel 2.

    At the moment of the 7th bowl/vial of the 7th seal, because things are numbered in consecutive, sequential, chronological order, six other seals have already been opened, followed by six other trumpets and six other bowls/vials. The 7th bowl/vial and 7th trumpet are the same moment, by the way:
    Rev 11
    The Seventh Trumpet

    15The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
    "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ,
    and he will reign for ever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying:
    "We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
    the One who is and who was,
    because you have taken your great power
    and have begun to reign.
    18The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.
    The time has come for judging the dead,
    and for rewarding your servants the prophets
    and your saints and those who reverence your name,
    both small and great—
    and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
    19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.


    The seals are on a scroll. Revelation is describing the events as each seal on that two-sided scroll is opened.

    There is no overlap between the seals, trumpets and vials...except the 7th vial and the 7th trumpet of the 7th seal are the exact same moment.

    The trumpets begin with the 7th seal, after the 6th seal because it says so. AND because the church is given her white robes and is seen in heaven while the 144,000 of Israel are sealed by God on earth at the same moment (the gathering) - the church are given those white robes in the 5th seal because it says so. The 144,000 are seen as sealed and protected through the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal. That establishes the time-frame right there!

    Nutshell version:
    1. Fifth seal - church given white robes
    2. Next chapter shows that white robed multitude standing before the throne in heaven at the same time the 144,000 of Israel is seen being sealed and protected by God on earth!
    3. THEN, we see that 144,000 who were sealed STILL on earth during the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal.

    Another establishment of order of events:

    Gog (Northern Army) invades at the time of the 6th seal (when sun/moon darken/stars fall) according to Joel 2. Gog is destroyed by fire, hail and blood which just so happens to be the very next event after the 6th seal - the 1st trumpet of the 7th seal shows an outpouring of fire, hail and blood. Ezek 38 tells us that everyone will know it was God that destroys gog. So, when the devil is cast down and comes to his angry senses, he is "given a key" to the abyss (5th trumpet of 7th seal). Later, in Rev 13 we see the devil's pawn using "fire from heaven" to PROVE he is God. That is no coincidence.

    Another establishment of order of events:

    Rev 12 shows the child caught up and the devil cast down to the earth and chasing the woman. Identifying each of those symbolic characters gives the order of events as well. The woman is spiritual Israel, represented as the 144,000 after giving birth to the child. The child is the church who is caught up at the moment of our birth, out of reach of the devil. That "birth" is the giving of white robes, our glorified bodies. We are dwelling in heaven from that moment on - we are blasphemed by the devil in Rev 13. The dragon of course is the devil. From the time the devil is given his key, he only has his short time of 42 months.

    Another establishment of order of events:

    The two witnesses and the devil each only have 1260 days. They overlap slightly with the 1260 days of the two witnesses beginning first, around the time of the 6th seal. It is the beast out of the abyss who kills them. That beast comes out of the abyss in the 5th trumpet of the 7th seal, described as the first woe, where the devil is killing people with his unholy armies.
    The two witnesses are doing their thing, miracles and testimony, which just so happen to match up to the first four trumpets of the 7th seal. They are around at that time. They are killed after the 6th trumpet. THEN, the bowls of wrath begin - poured out on those who "killed the prophets and the saints". The only prophets around during that time are the two witnesses. Therefore the two witnesses are dead/resurrected at the time of the bowls. The bowls are poured out on the kingdom of the anti-christ.

    The 7th trumpet/7th bowl are identical - earthquake, hail, and "it is done" wording.

    The order of Revelation's numbered events is clear. Everything is numbered in their order.

    Revelation:
    1. Seals 1-4 (great tribulation - began at the ascension of Christ, subsequent desolation of Israel and continues to this day)
    2. Seal 5 (rapture - the moment when the church is given her "garments of righteousness", her "white robes" that are "washed in the blood of the Lamb")
    3. Seal 6 (gog invasion - no flesh would survive unless cut short)
    4. Seal #7 (trumpets 1-6, bowls 1-6, trumpet 7/bowl 7)
    5. Christ comes on the clouds and destroys all the evil, especially those who have gathered to war against him from the 6th bowl of the 7th seal.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2010
  18. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Jen, Jen, Jen,

    You're missing God's beauty and simplicity.

    You overlooked the other double parallel in those passages confirming the sixth seal earthquake to be the seventh vial earthquake:

    Rev 6:
    12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
    13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
    14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
    15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
    16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
    17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


    Revelation 16
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
    18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
    19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
    20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
    21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    One of the more obvious double parallels confirms the overlap of the sixth trumpet and sixth vial at the "great river Euphrates" war.

    Revelation 9: Sixth Trumpet
    13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
    14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
    15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
    16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

    17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
    18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.


    Revelation 16: Sixth Vial (Bowl)
    12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.

    No one really knows the timing of events, Jen. That's why so many different timelines have been proposed. That's also probably why so many just accepted the sequential ordering as you have.

    Nevertheless, unresolvable contradictions exist with that sequential timeline. I'll respond to some of your other comments as time permits (especially if you convince me of the error of my ways).
     
  19. HisdaughterJen

    HisdaughterJen Well-Known Member

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    But you are jumping on one word with the Euphrates thing and assuming they are the same moment. In the 6th trumpet, the angels bound at the Euphrates are loosed. In the 6th bowl, the Euphrates dries up. Two different events!

    With the 6th seal, the islands and mountains are moved from their places and in the 7th bowl, the mountains and islands are not found! Big difference!

    It's like saying that the 2nd trumpet, which turns 1/3 of sea to blood and kills 1/3 of creatures/ships, is the same moment of the 2nd bowl when the sea turns to blood and EVERY LIVING CREATURE in the sea dies. It's not the same moment. There is a remarkable difference - in one moment, 1/3 turns to blood and 1/3 of creatures die, but in the 2nd moment, all of it turns to blood and all creatures die. God is giving people chance after chance to repent and choose Him.

    Think of the Christmas earthquake and tsunami of a few years ago...that massive earthquake changed the landscape of that area - islands and mountains were moved from their places. Imagine if they were no longer found! Two different things - one far worse than the other....which is a common theme and difference between the trumpets and the bowls. The bowls are worse, by far, than the horrors of the trumpets! It's as if God is showing restraint on His wrath until the bowls.

    Revelation is most definitely in sequential, consecutive, chronological order BECAUSE the seals, trumpets and bowls are NUMBERED.

    Were the ten plagues out of order? NO Does God change or lie? NO
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2010
  20. NightHawkeye

    NightHawkeye Work-in-progress Supporter

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    Jen,

    Thanks again for detailing your interpretations.

    I agree with you that they could be two different events.

    Again, they could be two different events. Conversely, they could also be the same event. As others have pointed out, the double parallels simply look at the same event from two different perspectives. That is, different viewpoints of the same event; viewed from left or right, front or back, beginning or end, etc.

    So, what's true and what's a lie? Truth is not false. When a thing is shown to be false, it cannot then also be true.

    Now, here I see a couple of unresolvable conflicts with the sequential timeline interpretation - the seventh angel from the trumpet series:

    Revelation 10:
    6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
    7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
    8 And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth.
    9 And I went unto the angel, and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up; and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey.
    10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
    11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

    Can time be finished if the vial (bowl) judgements haven't begun?

    Can the mystery of God be finished if the vial (bowl) judgements haven't begun?

    The answer is clearly NO. For the sake of argument though, let's assume the answer is yes, then conflict appears with the sixth vial (bowl) judgement.

    Revelation 16:
    15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
    16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
    17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

    Note that the mystery of God is still not finished after the sixth vial judgement. Like a thief, God gathered together the unknowing into Armegeddon. Clearly, the mystery of God wasn't finished.

    Note also the obvious double parallel between the mystery of God being finished and time being no more with the seventh vial angel's declaration of: "It is done."

    Jen, considerable scriptural evidence indicates that the sequential timeline interpretation for all of Revelation cannot be true.
     
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