Cheap Grace

[Sophrosyne]

I answered you first with a scripture you apparently didn't understand the relevance of, if you still don't how else to continue?

I'll break it down for you. You are using a human example to explain G-ds grace yet when it's shown to have existed before you say it isn't the same. You are imposing your understanding to explain the favor of G-d which has been an ongoing things since the garden.

I understand you are trying to use scripture to support an unbiblical doctrine in defiance of what Paul meant in his epistles. In other words you used the verse to try and convince us since you reject our understanding that God must have instead made it to where it cannot be understood by us but somehow it is understood by you when in fact the use of the verse equates the opposite.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 4:2 'The GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was to them also"
Gal 3:7 the Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Heb 11 the OT saints saved by pursuing "Righteousness which is by faith"
Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

green, no , they were not saved until the cross, the OT people.

Well the texts above appear to refute that - so also does Heb 11 refute it as all those in Heb 11 are said to be "pleasing to God" and "find acceptance with God".

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Abraham - 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God
OT saints - 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


They were saved by faith in the OT - but the OT saints did not go to heaven. (Except a few like Elijah and Moses as we see in Matt 17, and Enoch as we see in Gen 5 and Heb 11) -- and of course those who were raised and taken to heaven in Matt 27.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I answered you first with a scripture you apparently didn't understand the relevance of, if you still don't how else to continue?

I'll break it down for you. You are using a human example to explain G-ds grace yet when it's shown to have existed before you say it isn't the same. You are imposing your understanding to explain the favor of G-d which has been an ongoing things since the garden.

There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and it actually worked - both OT and NT.

 

[Frogster]

Well the texts above appear to refute that - so also does Heb 11 refute it as all those in Heb 11 are said to be "pleasing to God" and "find acceptance with God".

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Abraham - 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God
OT saints - 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.


They were saved by faith in the OT - but the OT saints did not go to heaven. (Except a few like Elijah and Moses as we see in Matt 17, and Enoch as we see in Gen 5 and Heb 11) -- and of course those who were raised and taken to heaven in Matt 27.

in Christ,

Bob

how could they have been perfected in regards to sin? The remission had not come yet, Jesus had not dhed his blood yet, it says in Heb 11, that they were not perfected yet. So you're wrong.

The heveanly country was about the future! it even says they did NOT RECEIVE THE PROMISE right in your verse!

 

[Frogster]

There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and it actually worked - both OT and NT.

The Gospel was hidden.

16:25 Now to him who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages

 

[Lulav]

There is only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9 and it actually worked - both OT and NT.

According to what you are referencing, there was more than one gospel back then, else why was Paul so adamant to fight with the Galatians about who they were listening to?

 

[Frogster]

According to what you are referencing, there was more than one gospel back then, else why was Paul so adamant to fight with the Galatians about who they were listening to?

incorrect, it was a false gospel. A different one, is false.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.


2Cor 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

 

[Lulav]

incorrect, it was a false gospel. A different one, is false.

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.


2Cor 11:4 For if someone comes and proclaims another Jesus than the one we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it readily enough.

You do realize that what Paul was referring to was the Gospel preached by the disciples of Jesus, the ones he called the Super Apostles, the ones Jesus appointed on earth to take the good news to Israel and the nations?

 

[Frogster]

You do realize that what Paul was referring to was the Gospel preached by the disciples of Jesus, the ones he called the Super Apostles, the ones Jesus appointed on earth to take the good news to Israel and the nations?

No, they were the false apostles, he is about to call them angels of light of the devil, he was not talking about james, peter, and john in 2 Cor 10-12.

He was being sarcastic, calling them "super apostles".


2 Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.14 And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

 

[Frogster]

You do realize that what Paul was referring to was the Gospel preached by the disciples of Jesus, the ones he called the Super Apostles, the ones Jesus appointed on earth to take the good news to Israel and the nations?

The false apostles were taking their money, and abusing the church.

20 For you bear it if someone makes slaves of you, or devours you, or takes advantage of you, or puts on airs, or strikes you in the face.

 

[Lulav]

Yeah, I answer to your post quoting Galatians and you skip over to a whole different group of people at Corinth. Yeah.

 

[Frogster]

Yeah, I answer to your post quoting Galatians and you skip over to a whole different group of people at Corinth. Yeah.

oh, I thought you meant that verse about corinth.

Ok, so to be clear what are you trying to say about gal 1? thanks.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 4:2 'The GOSPEL was preached to us just as it was to them also"
Gal 3:7 the Gospel was preached to Abraham.
Heb 11 the OT saints saved by pursuing "Righteousness which is by faith"
Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

green, no , they were not saved until the cross, the OT people.

Well the texts above appear to refute that - so also does Heb 11 refute it as all those in Heb 11 are said to be "pleasing to God" and "find acceptance with God".

HEB 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Abraham - 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God
OT saints - 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

They were saved by faith in the OT - but the OT saints did not go to heaven. (Except a few like Elijah and Moses as we see in Matt 17, and Enoch as we see in Gen 5 and Heb 11) -- and of course those who were raised and taken to heaven in Matt 27.

how could they have been perfected in regards to sin? The remission had not come yet, Jesus had not dhed his blood yet

The Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world". Your complaint that the Bible text of Heb 11 cannot possibly be true - is an argument "with the text".

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

Heb 11 says that they did not receive that heavenly land - and indeed neither have you or I gone to heaven - to this very day.

Abraham - Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

So also do we "wait for" it. The 2nd coming has not happened yet.

In Heb 8:1-6 we find the heavenly temple - that God made.

In Heb 11 we find the heavenly city - that God made.

You and I are on earth - we are not in heaven, that does not mean we are not born-again.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

The Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world". Your complaint that the Bible text of Heb 11 cannot possibly be true - is an argument "with the text".

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

Heb 11 says that they did not receive that heavenly land - and indeed neither have you or I gone to heaven - to this very day.

Abraham - Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

So also do we "wait for" it. The 2nd coming has not happened yet.

In Heb 8:1-6 we find the heavenly temple - that God made.

In Heb 11 we find the heavenly city - that God made.

You and I are on earth - we are not in heaven, that does not mean we are not born-again.

in Christ,

Bob

You can try tp weave verses together, but heb11 says they were NOT perfected until the JNT people were.

Why does rom 5 day, the grace did not come until the cross? What was the ONE ACT?

18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

 

[BobRyan]

The Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world". Your complaint that the Bible text of Heb 11 cannot possibly be true - is an argument "with the text".

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

Heb 11 says that they did not receive that heavenly land - and indeed neither have you or I gone to heaven - to this very day.
Abraham - Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God
So also do we "wait for" it. The 2nd coming has not happened yet.

In Heb 8:1-6 we find the heavenly temple - that God made.
In Heb 11 we find the heavenly city - that God made.
You and I are on earth - we are not in heaven, that does not mean we are not born-again.

You can try tp weave verses together, but heb11 says they were NOT perfected until the JNT people were.

Heb 11 actually says what I have quoted from it above.

And also this

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Frogster]

Heb 11 actually says what I have quoted from it above.

And also this

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

in Christ,

Bob

lol, apart from us, but the us were in the new cov time! The OT people were only perfected then, with the NT people, not APART FROM US. Only in the New cov, the sprinkling, read the verses here.


23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


Sin remission only came by the Blood of Christ, and that is it, case closed!

 

[Frogster]

duplicate.

 

[BobRyan]

lol, apart from us, but the us were in the new cov time! The OT people were only perfected then, with the NT people, not APART FROM US. Only in the New cov, the sprinkling, read the verses here.


23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.


Sin remission only came by the Blood of Christ, and that is it, case closed!

Says nothing about us being the savior of the OT saints.

We cannot perfect them , we are ourselves sinful humanity - having a sinful nature - also like them needing salvation. We do not become their saviors - the text is talking about OT saints not reaching the heavenly city that they seek apart from NT saints who are also waiting for that city. And in Rev 21 the city comes down out of heaven from God.

Heb 11 actually says what I have quoted from it above.

And also this

Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

Heb 11
39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The text says "apart from us" -- not apart from Christ - and we are no savior. Therefore the text is talking about the promise of glorification and Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

 

[Frogster]

Says nothing about us being the savior of the OT saints.

We cannot perfect them , we are ourselves sinful humanity - having a sinful nature - also like them needing salvation. We do not become their saviors - the text is talking about OT saints not reaching the heavenly city that they seek apart from NT saints who are also waiting for that city. And in Rev 21 the city comes down out of heaven from God.



It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

I know we do not save them, but if they were not saved "apart from us" the saved ones, then that means that they were not saved until the "us" were.

It is talking about salvation, because the perfect word is about sin remission, let me know if you want proof. See 7:11, it is about perfection.

You act like Jesus did not open the curtain!

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh,

 

[Frogster]

Says nothing about us being the savior of the OT saints.

We cannot perfect them , we are ourselves sinful humanity - having a sinful nature - also like them needing salvation. We do not become their saviors - the text is talking about OT saints not reaching the heavenly city that they seek apart from NT saints who are also waiting for that city. And in Rev 21 the city comes down out of heaven from God.



It does not say "Apart from Christ they should not be made perfect" so it is not talking about salvation.

It does not say "apart from those who have died before us - but after the cross -- they should not be made perfect".

It says "us" referring to all NT saints in all of time - saints that are also waiting..
Peter says "fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you AT the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1 Peter 1:3. We too "eagerly wait for it" as Paul says in Phil 3.

as far as your Peter verse, they we already experiencing salvation, they were already redeemed, and born again.

1 peter 1:9 obtaining the outcome of your faith, the salvation of your souls.


18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,

23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;