Cheap Grace

[Meowzltov]

Not supportable by the Scripture.

What? Ninevah was not saved?

 

[Lulav]

Not always. I'm not sure why that would be important.

Then how would they learn of the one true G-d? and that they were at odds with him?

 

[Lulav]

listed said: ↑
You simply refuse to believe John 1:17. Grace and truth are not the law. They are opposed to each other. Grace grants exception to the law issued at Mt Sinai.

Lulav said: ↑
You have no position to state what I believe and what I don't believe.
Conclusions to be made from your statement above are thus.

• Grace and Truth are separate from the Law
• Grace and Truth are in opposition to each other
• Grace allows you to not have to keep G-ds commandments
• You have a free ticket to do as you please and still please G-d

How about this, why didn't these people know that the law was done away with?

John, who was the beloved disciple, one of the chief apostles, why didn't he know this and teach it?

By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d and observe His commandments.
For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome. 1Jn5:2-3


At the time of the Beast and the mark there will be these people living, why didn't they get that free pass to not have to follow the law, but yet seem to be rewarded?

9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to their faithfulness in Jesus.

if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.~~Jesus of Nazereth c 32 ce

It is obvious from what you post what you believe.

Fine, but you still don't have the knowledge about me to say I refuse to believe something.

Truth and grace or as I said Grace and truth is a single item by compound with the word and. You misread the sentence.

Where do you get the idea that Truth and Grace are the same thing? Does saying bread and butter make them the same things?

I plainly said Grace and truth are not the law and are opposed to it. John 1:17 reads that way.

Why are you reiterating that? It was one of my points from your post.

• Grace and Truth are separate from the Law
• Grace and Truth are in opposition to each other

You have the pronouns of 1 John 5:2-3 mixed up.

What?

By this we know that we love the children of G-d, when we love G-d and observe His commandments.
For this is the love of G-d, that we keep His commandments;
and His commandments are not burdensome. 1Jn5:2-3

Direct quote from the bible. You want another version?

2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands.
3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome

Yes I am very familiar with your Revelation text, the SDA use it all the time. You do not understand what commandments John is talking about.

If you are so familiar why didn't you answer my question about it. G-ds commandments are G-ds commandments, G-d does not change. I think it is you who doesn't understand that G-d still requires obedience to him still today.

Kool, use an out of context passage also recognized to oppose John 10 making Jesus a liar.

How does a quote from Jesus make Jesus to be a liar. And please give which passages you are referring to, a whole chapter does not help and I don't see how anything in John 10 relates.

 

[BobRyan]

"BobRyan, post: 68051331, member: 235244"]The Bible says Jesus is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world". Your complaint that the Bible text of Heb 11 cannot possibly be true - is an argument "with the text".

Heb 11
4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.
5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 7
Then the Lord said to Noah, “Come into the ark, you and all your household, because I have seen that you are righteous before Me in this generation.

Gal 1:6-9 there is only one Gospel.
John 8 "Abraham saw My day and was glad".
1 Cor 10 "they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ"
1 Peter 1 OT prophets saw "the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow"

Heb 11 says that they did not receive that heavenly land - and indeed neither have you or I gone to heaven - to this very day.

Abraham - Heb 11:10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God

So also do we "wait for" it. The 2nd coming has not happened yet.

In Heb 8:1-6 we find the heavenly temple - that God made.

In Heb 11 we find the heavenly city - that God made.

But was a prophet back then sent to all the different nations, like Jonah was?

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave..." John 3:16 - this is the pre-cross position of God "who does not change" Mal 4:1-8
The Holy Spirit "convicts the world of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 not just the saved.

Romans 2:13-16 says that those who do not have access to the Bible - respond in some cases to the Holy Spirit - in true New Covenant fashion we then see the "works of the Law written on the heart" by this world wide work of God.

 

[BobRyan]

Then how would they learn of the one true G-d? and that they were at odds with him?

Romans 10 says it is through nature that the "Good news" is preached.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

 

[Lulav]

Romans 10 says it is through nature that the "Good news" is preached.

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


That is exactly my point, see highlighted above.

 

[Frogster]

I don't disagree. What I said, however, was that it worked backwards in time.

but until the one act, the word Paul repeated a lot in Rom 5, what condition were the OT people in? Before the shedding of blood, that brought remission, what condition were they in?

 

[Meowzltov]

Then how would they learn of the one true G-d? and that they were at odds with him?

As Paul said, there is enough evidence in Nature that no one is free of guilt. We call it natural law.

 

[Meowzltov]

but until the one act, the word Paul repeated a lot in Rom 5, what condition were the OT people in? Before the shedding of blood, that brought remission, what condition were they in?

A state of grace, due to the shedding of Jesus blood. My guess is that you are just not familiar with manipulating time in your head very well.

 

[Rajni]

You can't tell God that what he is doing just doesn't fit into your definition.

Why not? Christians of all persuasions do that all the time.
That's why there's so much diversity within Christendom overall.
(I'm embarrassed to admit how long it took me to finally figure that out...)

-
-

 

[Meowzltov]

Why not? Christians of all persuasions do that all the time.

That may be true, but it is still presumptuous and arrogant.

 

[Rajni]

That may be true, but it is still presumptuous and arrogant.

Or, just part and parcel of spiritual growth.

Let's face it, we're dealing with an invisible God in whom it takes faith to believe.
It therefore follows that anything believed about Him also takes faith.
He's invisible to the naked eye and He knows it.
(Or He's hiding in plain sight and the joke's on us. )
At any rate, I highly doubt He gets His petticoats in a twist if those aiming for Him
miss their mark on even a regular basis. At least He's in their radar, and
that's gotta be good for something, imo.

"Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable His judgments,
and His paths beyond tracing out!
Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been His counselor?”

But back to your original point about the term "cheap" grace,
I have to say I've never understood that. I would think
that the more God does for the soul's well-being, the more
priceless His grace would be, rather than cheaper.
To be free to love and honor Him out of pure love,
untainted by even a smidgen of fear-based motives --
a true relationship with the King of the
Universe... that's Heaven here and now.

-

 

[Lulav]

As Paul said, there is enough evidence in Nature that no one is free of guilt. We call it natural law.

Was there no nature in Ninevah?

 

[BobRyan]

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:


That is exactly my point, see highlighted above.

Notice how Paul answers that question in Romans 10 - that he asks in Romans 10?

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?”
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:
“Their sound has gone out to all the earth,
And their words to the ends of the world.”


Ps 19
The heavens are telling of the glory of God;
And their expanse is declaring the work of His hands.
2 Day to day pours forth speech,
And night to night reveals knowledge.
3 There is no speech, nor are there words;
Their voice is not heard.
4 Their line has gone out through all the earth,
And their utterances to the end of the world.
In them He has placed a tent for the sun,

 

[Frogster]

A state of grace, due to the shedding of Jesus blood. My guess is that you are just not familiar with manipulating time in your head very well.

you are wrong, sin reigned in death, from Adam to Moses! guess what? the OT people were in the at time period!

please refute the text.


14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

 

[Meowzltov]

Was there no nature in Ninevah?

Who knows why God went the extra mile in Ninevah.

 

[Meowzltov]

14 Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.

Death still reigns. It's only through Christ that we have eternal life.

 

[Frogster]

Death still reigns. It's only through Christ that we have eternal life.

but the Spiritual life was after the cross, Rom 5 totally proves you to be incorrect.

So, how did they have sin remission when the blood had not be shed yet?

Did the blood of animals do it?

Where, when how, did they have sin remission prior to the sprinkling?

,Heb 12:24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

It even says, they were in old cov sin still. The redemption did not happen until the blood was shed, that is a fact. The death of the testator had to happen, 9:16


9:15 Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant

When were they made perfect?It says "firstborn", that was only when Christ died on the cross.

12:23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

 

[Meowzltov]

but the Spiritual life was after the cross, Rom 5 totally proves you to be incorrect.
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });

You keep saying that, but your arguments are not convincing. I'm sorry but most of the Christian world is not dispensationalist, and I agree with most of the Christian world.

 

[stevenfrancis]

He
Once again no one believe your works save you or give you salvation, since we are all saved by grace through faith in Christ. Good works is what you do because you are saved. Faith without works is dead.

(emphasis mine)

Bingo. Winner Winner chicken dinner