Cheap Grace

[Meowzltov]

I have come across people who advocate "Once Saved Always Saved"

Don't even get me started on that topic LOL

 

[MoreCoffee]

Don't even get me started on that topic LOL

A hot button issue for you?

 

[bugkiller]

How many times have I heard some Christians complain that they are against "works salvation" by which they mean they don't want a Christian faith that demands anything of them??? I have news for them. Christ demands EVERYTHING of us. OUR VERY LIVES are to be a living sacrifice unto him. That said, how can you complain about God asking our obedience, our faithfulness, our good works? "For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works" Eph 2:10. Yes, we are saved by Grace, but not a cheap grace!

From the posts in this thread, I don't think you've got any concept of grace. What you're clearly promoting is earned grace. The reward for which is death. Rom 3:23

bugkiller

 

[MoreCoffee]

From the posts in this thread, I don't think you've got any concept of grace. What you're clearly promoting is earned grace. The reward for which is death. Rom 3:23

bugkiller

That is probably not true; that is to say it is unlikely that Open Heart is promoting earned grace because that would truly be an oxymoron and one ought never to assume that one's interlocutor is engaging in that kind of illogic.

 

[Meowzltov]

A hot button issue for you?

Since I was 11. I'm 54. LOL

 

[Meowzltov]

From the posts in this thread, I don't think you've got any concept of grace. What you're clearly promoting is earned grace. The reward for which is death. Rom 3:23

You can think that all you want buggie. But I'm saved by grace, and my gratitude has no words. Grace is not someething I earn, I totally get that. You are having a hard time understanding my position.

 

[Steeno7]

Not at all. I'm not that brilliant. I learned the terms by reading the Catholic Lutheran Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification that was issued in 2000. It was a watershed in Church history; you really should read it, as it heals the whole faith/works disagreement between Catholics and Lutherans.

They say what you say? That God's grace is initially free, but then must be earned by required works?

 

[Steeno7]

Our Christian life doesn't end with our salvation. Repentance means we have returned to God's way, that we now walk with God. It is a way of life. There is a ton of verses that talk about this (froggie are yu paying attention?):

• For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do goodworks, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph 2:10
• What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? James 2:14-26
• In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven. Matt 5:16
  
• First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds. Acts 26:20
  
• but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God. 1 Tim 2:10
  
• Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 1 Tim 6:18
  
• And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds Hebrews 10:24
  
• to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up Eph 4;12
  
• Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, but that you yourself are living in obedienceto the law. Acts 21:24
  
• Through him we received grace and apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith for his name’s sake. Romans 1:5
  
• Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you Romans 16:19
  
• so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from faith Romans 16:26
  
• Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 2 Cor 9:13
  
• And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. 2 John 1:6

To walk this Christian walk of good works and obedience, we cannot do it on our own. It takes the grace of God. Thus we speak of GRACE FOR THE JOURNEY.

Biblically "walk" refers to how we live. And scripture is clear that how we live is by faith in Jesus Christ. It is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved and it is how we continue to live. It is only we who do live by faith in Christ who are obedient...indeed it is only we who can be obedient.

 

[listed]

You can think that all you want buggie. But I'm saved by grace, and my gratitude has no words. Grace is not someething I earn, I totally get that. You are having a hard time understanding my position.

I am sure that buggie appreciates permission to think as he will.
It is very clear you are promoting grace by works in which case it is not grace.
Jesus said
Ye shall know them by their fruits.
Fruits and works are 2 very different things. An apple is not a work of an apple tree. It is a fruit. It can not help itself. IOW it can not produce turnips.

 

[Cribstyl]

Oh, froggie doesn't like that one.

You're being a false witness against the Frog. I know what he understand on about Eph2:10. He can distinguish that Paul is talking about grace in these words.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Then after grace is received we can submit to being His workmanship.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Cribstyl]

Again, initial grace is free. Grace for the journey requires a response from us. You can't get around the scriptures. You can't tell God that what he is doing just doesn't fit into your definition.

Who is trying to get around scriptures?

The scriptures teach....
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.


You're the one trying to contradict and manipulate what scriptures say about grace and appearing to say that law is given by Jesus Christ.
You're using word games to claim that "keep my commandments" means keep the law given to Moses.
Christians are commanded to live be obedient and righteous lives. The law package is not the covenant we're under.

 

[Albion]

You can think that all you want buggie. But I'm saved by grace, and my gratitude has no words. Grace is not someething I earn, I totally get that. You are having a hard time understanding my position.

Because Grace does not save in itself. It's by Grace that God enables us to be saved, either by imparting Faith OR by counting your efforts to your credit (the latter of which I think is your view of the matter).

 

[Meowzltov]

They say what you say? That God's grace is initially free, but then must be earned by required works?

Earned is completely the wrong word. There is an interplay thereafter, where we respond to our salvation with obedience, and God responds to us with grace so that we might obey.

 

[Meowzltov]

It is only we who do live by faith in Christ who are obedient...indeed it is only we who can be obedient.

It is an interplay. We live obediently to receive continued grace for the journey. And God gives us that grace so that we might obey. It's a circle.

 

[Steeno7]

Earned is completely the wrong word. There is an interplay thereafter, where we respond to our salvation with obedience, and God responds to us with grace so that we might obey.

You are insisting on "requirements" for Gods grace, "earned" is exactly the right word. God is not the responder, we are. We respond to His grace. Grace which is freely given and freely received......or not.

 

[Steeno7]

It is an interplay. We live obediently to receive continued grace for the journey. And God gives us that grace so that we might obey. It's a circle.

Grace that would be given in response to obedience would not be grace. Just more nonsensical gibberish.

 

[Meowzltov]

Biblically "walk" refers to how we live. And scripture is clear that how we live is by faith in Jesus Christ. It is by the grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ that we are saved and it is how we continue to live. It is only we who do live by faith in Christ who are obedient...indeed it is only we who can be obedient.

So you agree then that obedience and good works ARE a necessary part of our Christian walk?

 

[Meowzltov]

They say what you say? That God's grace is initially free, but then must be earned by required works?

The Lutherans say what Catholics say, that initial justification is by grace alone and not earned, but that the subsequent journey requires faithfulness, obedience, and good works. After years of dialogue it turned out that the disagreement was one of semantics, where Lutherans meant one thing by justification (initial justification) and Catholics were meaning an entirely different thing (ongoing justification/sanctification). Use of the new vocabulary adopted by both sides has led to the mutual declaration.

 

[Steeno7]

So you agree then that obedience and good works ARE a necessary part of our Christian walk?

Necessary as in "required", as in works we must do or else, nope.

 

[Steeno7]

The Lutherans say what Catholics say, that initial justification is by grace alone and not earned, but that the subsequent journey requires faithfulness, obedience, and good works. After years of dialogue it turned out that the disagreement was one of semantics, where Lutherans meant one thing by justification (initial justification) and Catholics were meaning an entirely different thing (ongoing justification/sanctification). Use of the new vocabulary adopted by both sides has led to the mutual declaration.

Not what I asked.