Cheap Grace

[Meowzltov]

This is frogsters understanding

The Temple doesn't exist
You can't keep the laws regarding the temple
Therefore you have broken all the law

Yes you are right. And sadly, he is not open to education in how Jewish law actually works.

 

[Meowzltov]

How do you know if you are doing the works you should be doing to be saved?

By examining your conscience. Catholics are trained to do this, but I know many protestants who do this better than most Catholics. You set time aside to ask yourself, "Am I breaking any of God's laws? Am I doing all I can for the least of these that I can manage?" It works best of you break things down into smaller categories. "Have I murdered anyone perhaps indirectly? Have I attempted suicide or thought about it? Have I assassinated someone's character with gossip?" Whatever you find of concern, you repent about it, and plan how you will make these changes in your life, as well as making amends if needed.

That's what works for ongoing salvation (sanctification). For initial justification (what non-denoms call being born again) you add to your repentance baptism, if at all possible.

 

[JustHisKid]

By examining your conscience. Catholics are trained to do this, but I know many protestants who do this better than most Catholics. You set time aside to ask yourself, "Am I breaking any of God's laws? Am I doing all I can for the least of these that I can manage?" It works best of you break things down into smaller categories. "Have I murdered anyone perhaps indirectly? Have I attempted suicide or thought about it? Have I assassinated someone's character with gossip?" Whatever you find of concern, you repent about it, and plan how you will make these changes in your life, as well as making amends if needed.

That's what works for ongoing salvation (sanctification). For initial justification (what non-denoms call being born again) you add to your repentance baptism, if at all possible.

So, it's pretty much up to you to decide if you are keeping yourself saved or not. Got it.

 

[Meowzltov]

It isn't at all Scriptural, it is your misunderstanding of Scripture. Further, salvation is not supposed to feel at all awkward.

I know I am saved and John confirms this.
1 John 5
5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Sorry, but I believe the scripture about fear and trembling. You should not feel secure. You should understand that you must perservere to the end in order to be saved. (Matthew 24:13).

I didn't see anything in your verses that contradicted these other verses of mine. By the way, did you realize that your translation is still including the Johannine comma? (Verse 7 should not be there.)

 

[JustHisKid]

Sorry, but I believe the scripture about fear and trembling. You should not feel secure. You should understand that you must perservere to the end in order to be saved. (Matthew 24:13).

I didn't see anything in your verses that contradicted these other verses of mine. By the way, did you realize that your translation is still including the Johannine comma? (Verse 7 should not be there.)

The passage about fear and trembling is not about being afraid and scared and working to be saved, but working out the salvation we HAVE. If I am not saved, I have no salvation to "work out". He is speaking to people who are already saved and know they have eternal life. They know they are children of God.

 

[Meowzltov]

So, it's pretty much up to you to decide if you are keeping yourself saved or not. Got it.

When we are immature Christians, God grants us more leeway to make mistakes -- we come to a fuller understanding with time and maturity. So for example, when I was a younger Christian, I didn't think it was a big deal to miss church. Now God has revealed to me why I need to go each week and why. So whereas before, skipping church didn't really threaten my salvation, it now becomes a matter of obedience verses disobedience. We are required to be faithful to the light we are given.

 

[Meowzltov]

The passage about fear and trembling is not about being afraid and scared and working to be saved, but working out the salvation we HAVE. If I am not saved, I have no salvation to "work out". He is speaking to people who are already saved and know they have eternal life. They know they are children of God.

It means that having salvation, we must work not to lose it.

 

[JustHisKid]

When we are immature Christians, God grants us more leeway to make mistakes -- we come to a fuller understanding with time and maturity. So for example, when I was a younger Christian, I didn't think it was a big deal to miss church. Now God has revealed to me why I need to go each week and why. So whereas before, skipping church didn't really threaten my salvation, it now becomes a matter of obedience verses disobedience. We are required to be faithful to the light we are given.

Ok, I see that this isn't getting through. If you want to believe that you are working on saving yourself, so be it.

 

[JustHisKid]

It means that having salvation, we must work not to lose it.

You cannot work to keep your salvation. Once a person is a child of God, he is a child of God. If you aren't saved, then you aren't. If you don't know you are a child of God, you cannot expect to enter His kingdom no matter who hard you try by going to church or whatever.

 

[Meowzltov]

Ok, I see that this isn't getting through. If you want to believe that you are working on saving yourself, so be it.

It's God who saves me. But he requires my cooperation.

 

[Meowzltov]

You cannot work to keep your salvation. Once a person is a child of God, he is a child of God. If you aren't saved, then you aren't. If you don't know you are a child of God, you cannot expect to enter His kingdom no matter who hard you try by going to church or whatever.

Just as the prodigal son became dead to the Father, so we who are children of God can become spiritually dead once again. Your OSAS notions are simply unbiblical, but I realize that I'm never going to reach you.

 

[JustHisKid]

It's God who saves me. But he requires my cooperation.

No, He doesn't. You have nothing to do with it. Grace is free, it doesn't require anything of you but to accept it. Because you are working to save yourself, God owes you something. God will be no debtor to anyone.

 

[JustHisKid]

Just as the prodigal son became dead to the Father

The prodigal son was never dead to his father.

so we who are children of God can become spiritually dead once again.

Lie.

Your OSAS notions are simply unbiblical, but I realize that I'm never going to reach you.

It is God who quickens a spirit and makes it alive. In fact the deposit of the Holy Spirit into a believer is a GUARANTEE of the inheritance of eternal life. Look it up.

 

[Meowzltov]

No, He doesn't. You have nothing to do with it. Grace is free, it doesn't require anything of you but to accept it. Because you are working to save yourself, God owes you something. God will be no debtor to anyone.

This is just not true. To accept God's grace i.e. we must renounce Satan and intend to instead live as God commands. That's part of repentence. Without that intention, your baptism is void.

 

[JustHisKid]

This is just not true. To accept God's grace i.e. we must renounce Satan

What are you talking about? God and satan are not equals where you have to renounce one to accept the other. I can't believe you just said that.

and intend to instead live as God commands. That's part of repentence. Without that intention, your baptism is void.

You can intend all you like but it will not save you. Only the blood of Jesus will save you. You either accept His free gift of salvation or you don't.

 

[Meowzltov]

What are you talking about? God and satan are not equals where you have to renounce one to accept the other. I can't believe you just said that.

So you think you can obtain salvation intending to continue following Satan? It's I who can't believe that you just said that.

 

[JustHisKid]

So you think you can obtain salvation intending to continue following Satan? It's I who can't believe that you just said that.

James 4
7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.…

 

[Meowzltov]

James 4
7Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.…

So if you believe in resisting the devil, why do you oppose me saying that people should renounce Satan?

 

[JustHisKid]

So if you believe in resisting the devil, why do you oppose me saying that people should renounce Satan?

Because they are not even close to being the same thing. You made up something that isn't in Scripture. I believe God's word, not yours.

 

[Meowzltov]

Because they are not even close to being the same thing. You made up something that isn't in Scripture. I believe God's word, not yours.

Uh huh.