Cheap Grace

[JustHisKid]

Uh huh.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Frogster]

He is referring to a post about a month ago under his hard to buy clothes under the law thread, start at that link and read on, you were part of the conversation, and basically did agree with me but he is using it in a twisted manner saying you have to do all 613 laws or if you don't you've broken the law. The sophistry abounds there as in other places.

This is frogsters understanding

The Temple doesn't exist
You can't keep the laws regarding the temple
Therefore you have broken all the law

well. if one cant' keep it one breaks it..lol!

 

[Frogster]

No, if what I've said doesn't answer your question, then I honestly don't understand your question. The only thing I can do at this point is refer you to what I've already written. Maybe you can explain what you mean by works -- it's possible we are having semantical difficulties.

well gee if u think world save, please tell us what works u did to get saved. I am not asking an unreasonable question, tell us what works saved you.

 

[Frogster]

The analogy doesn't work. Using your analogies line reason, you would have to conclude that faith apart from works is still faith. That's not what the verse is saying. And just as an aside the idea that faith apart from works is still faith would still contradict James at face value. Faith "apart" from works is still dead (not faith at all). All in all, your analogy is blown out of the water.

I still believe the context (with James) is that faith apart from works "alone" justifies you. Otherwise you have Paul and James contradicting each other -- a no no.

gen 22 does not say justified about James who also said no law to be justified, peter said faith and grace in acts 15, James agreed, and all of Paul proves you wrong, as you can't even post Paul to argue from, so go ahead, say what u want, but the facts i posted stand, and your Pauline omission is noted by all.

 

[Meowzltov]

well. if one cant' keep it one breaks it..lol!

That's where you are so wrong. You have no understanding of Jewish law. Or any other kind of law. There are laws regarding factory output of pollution that I don't keep because I don't own a factory; it doesn't mean I'm breaking the law. But I'm sure you can't understand that.

 

[Meowzltov]

well gee if u think world save, please tell us what works u did to get saved. I am not asking an unreasonable question, tell us what works saved you.

Does this post mean you have no intentions of explaining what you mean by works?

 

[Meowzltov]

Pauline omission

Sounds like I'm really irritating you by not playing into your games.

 

[Lulav]

well. if one cant' keep it one breaks it..lol!

So would you like the secular authorities to go by your understanding? I'm sure they would love to meet their ticket quota for the month.

By your understanding if you don't have a car then you can't keep all the road and traffic and driving laws thus, the police can cite you (give you a ticket) for breaking each and every law on the books.

Can you afford that?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Does this post mean you have no intentions of explaining what you mean by works?

I assume that you understand what works are. If so, please tell me exactly what works you performed to secure your salvation. Are these works universally applicable to all people everywhere or only specific to you?

 

[Meowzltov]

I assume that you understand what works are. If so, please tell me exactly what works you performed to secure your salvation. Are these works universally applicable to all people everywhere or only specific to you?

I have an understanding of works. However, I suspect that the reason Froggie and I disagree and that the conversation seems so nutty is that he is using a different definition than mine. That's why I asked.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I have an understanding of works. However, I suspect that the reason Froggie and I disagree and that the conversation seems so nutty is that he is using a different definition than mine. That's why I asked.

Thank you. I usually find that coming to an understanding of key ideas is critical to reaching a conclusion, whether or not an agreement is finally accepted.

Here is an interesting Wikipedia article on good works. Please read it and let me know what you think of it and what aspects, if any, fit your understanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works

Thanks again.

 

[Meowzltov]

Here is an interesting Wikipedia article on good works. Please read it and let me know what you think of it and what aspects, if any, fit your understanding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_works

It was a good article. I even picked up some good verses for the Law and Sabbath forum.

For those who claim that grace doesn't include works:
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

 

[bbbbbbb]

It was a good article. I even picked up some good verses for the Law and Sabbath forum.

For those who claim that grace doesn't include works:
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

I am glad it helped. I think the primary issue is whether or not grace requires works or if it produces works.

 

[Meowzltov]

I am glad it helped. I think the primary issue is whether or not grace requires works or if it produces works.

The works required for grace are also works helped by grace. It's a circle. God grants us grace which we use for works which grant us grace and so on. I don't think we earn grace...just that we are required to cooperate with grace.

 

[Frogster]

That's where you are so wrong. You have no understanding of Jewish law. Or any other kind of law. There are laws regarding factory output of pollution that I don't keep because I don't own a factory; it doesn't mean I'm breaking the law. But I'm sure you can't understand that.

please lets elevate the debate already..

 

[Frogster]

Does this post mean you have no intentions of explaining what you mean by works?

your reply is what ruins threads, everyone knows just what I mean. But what do u do? Give a meaningless semantical reply that takes up cyber space.

 

[Frogster]

It was a good article. I even picked up some good verses for the Law and Sabbath forum.

For those who claim that grace doesn't include works:
Titus 2:11,12
For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age.

what is the teaching (red above), law or grace? I would advise that you read rom 6:17 to see the doctrine it was NOT works! loll..

what was the doctrine (teaching) of 6:17? Do u know? I bet you don't.....love frog.


17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,

 

[Frogster]

you ask, but u never quote Paul.

 

[Frogster]

the

So would you like the secular authorities to go by your understanding? I'm sure they would love to meet their ticket quota for the month.

By your understanding if you don't have a car then you can't keep all the road and traffic and driving laws thus, the police can cite you (give you a ticket) for breaking each and every law on the books.

Can you afford that?

the thread is now in a down spiral if you are going to resort to this, thanks, said with respect an luv, frog,

 

[Meowzltov]

please lets elevate the debate already..

I have. It's one sided, we me scoring all the outstanding points. Prrrrr....