Chavs in the church!

[salamacum]

Actually I mean a lifestyle that the world would regard as unacceptable.

This has happened. Someone we have known for many years. Bad parents herself. Professed some form of faith. Taken under wing of a church member.
went away. Now 6 children by different men.
Returns to church. No commitment to change lifestyle. Jokes about the 'next man' and being divorced in a week.
Church has done up the council-provided house. Food and clothes regularly provided.
Council pays £800 a week (at least) in benefits.
Church members say - well, she's looking for love. And its for the children, isn't it?
What options are available to the leadership? If any?
Another working-class couple are furious. Say that the family has got the church 'over a barrel'

 

[contango]

Actually I mean a lifestyle that the world would regard as unacceptable.

This has happened. Someone we have known for many years. Bad parents herself. Professed some form of faith. Taken under wing of a church member.
went away. Now 6 children by different men.
Returns to church. No commitment to change lifestyle. Jokes about the 'next man' and being divorced in a week.
Church has done up the council-provided house. Food and clothes regularly provided.
Council pays £800 a week (at least) in benefits.
Church members say - well, she's looking for love. And its for the children, isn't it?
What options are available to the leadership? If any?
Another working-class couple are furious. Say that the family has got the church 'over a barrel'

This is the kind of situation where personally I'd withdraw all support.

If someone is making their best efforts to improve their situation I don't have a problem with offering help, whether that's financial or practical help.

If someone is making no attempt at all to improve their lot then they're certainly not going to drain my resources as well as their own.

Why would this person ever look to change when Someone Else picks up the pieces for her without question, leaving her free to live as recklessly as she wants without any fear of the consequences?

 

[salamacum]

Pity this item isn't continuing..
Because it IS a pastoral issue for a church. Any church.
It's the internal v external priority balance. Or the compassion v discipline thing. Or the church moral protection v not-judging dilemma. Or the child's needs v the parent.
Somebody else will always pick up the pieces because there are children involved. Shades of Mick Philpott? (UK readers)

 

[djlester]

It really is not right to be using the church's giving nature for their own greed. If the children are all in good health and not going without then I agree with contango, the only way she will change is if help is with drawn.

 

[contango]

It really is not right to be using the church's giving nature for their own greed. If the children are all in good health and not going without then I agree with contango, the only way she will change is if help is with drawn.

Unfortunately if too loose a definition of "children going without" is used she still won't change, as everybody else continues to pick up the slack.

 

[salamacum]

Unfortunately if too loose a definition of "children going without" is used she still won't change, as everybody else continues to pick up the slack.

This is the issue isn't it, Contango.
Whatever the censure, whatever the strictures we lay down...
for example - "you need to have your money, relationships, housekeeping, motherhood, hygiene, spirituality - whatever" managed and she just says "no, I won't - I'm a good mother, I can mange my money, I'm a christian etc etc. What can you do. It's about the children.

Remember Mick Philpott? Children for him were a means of financing his lifestyle.

 

[contango]

This is the issue isn't it, Contango.
Whatever the censure, whatever the strictures we lay down...
for example - "you need to have your money, relationships, housekeeping, motherhood, hygiene, spirituality - whatever" managed and she just says "no, I won't - I'm a good mother, I can mange my money, I'm a christian etc etc. What can you do. It's about the children.

Remember Mick Philpott? Children for him were a means of financing his lifestyle.

It is sad when children suffer for the omissions of their parents. One can hope that they will grow up with some ambition to do better for their own children. It always seems such a shame when children learn that if they don't do something for themselves there's always Someone Else to step in and do it for them.

 

[djlester]

It is sad when children suffer for the omissions of their parents. One can hope that they will grow up with some ambition to do better for their own children. It always seems such a shame when children learn that if they don't do something for themselves there's always Someone Else to step in and do it for them.

You are so right and it is a truly sad thing to say that the best we can hope for is the children don't turn out like the parents. Maybe with the children's exposure to the church they will develop their own sense of right and wrong from the examples of those they interact with within the congregation.

 

[salamacum]

Actually some of the kids are coming to church. Two are in my 'club'.
Another three are in the juniors.
But they only come because they are picked up. This in itself is a big ask.
One recent thing - a gentle spirit turns away wrath.
The mum wound up the council with her demanding tone of voice and as a reesulot had no bins and collection for her 'new' house. Result, rubbish, rats and environmental problems.
My wife took up the issue and persuaded the council to provide the missing bins free of charge.
I really wonder how much of the family's deprivation is due to failure or inability to practice grace and patience (kingdom values) when they are needed in dealings with providers.

 

[salamacum]

Are the kids abused? No. Neglected yes. But its a fine line.

 

[seashale76]

Pity this item isn't continuing..
Because it IS a pastoral issue for a church. Any church.
It's the internal v external priority balance. Or the compassion v discipline thing. Or the church moral protection v not-judging dilemma. Or the child's needs v the parent.
Somebody else will always pick up the pieces because there are children involved. Shades of Mick Philpott? (UK readers)

Sure, it is a pastoral issue and this is a hard call to make. This woman desperately needs for her spiritual needs to be met, but that appears to be the last concern she has for herself. So, I guess your church decided to help with what material needs they could- even though it seems she's pulling the poor mouth act than anything else.

If I were your pastor, I'd still make sure the kids had a ride to church and maybe even give clothing assistance if they needed it. If they needed groceries, then do that too. The kids can't help who their mother is and that she isn't raising them properly. However, I think the line is crossed at the church decorating their flat, etc.

In the end though- I'd say it is better for the church to do too much for this family rather than nothing at all. If this woman is truly taking advantage then it is on her.

My church runs a food pantry and we have to attempt to make sure certain rules are followed. Even still, some people slip through the cracks and try to play the system. You can't weed all of that out because some people are good at lying and conning others. In the end, that is between them and God.

I also think your thread hasn't gotten a lot of people commenting because most of us here in America have never even heard the term chav, so they have no idea what you're talking about.

However, I've found a terrible little music video that sort of explains:

Chav Scum - YouTube

 

[salamacum]

Seashale,

thanks for that. I appreciate it. What do you call chavs in the USA? Chav I think comes from a romany/gypsy word chaver.
Anyway, there are a lot worse people than this mother. In fact there is some evidence that she is trying in some small way to rise to some of God's expectations of her or at least some of ours.
But she's just not capable to bringing up these kids on her own. All the best decisions
made for the household have been made for her by church members. Even getting rubbish bins delivered.
Of concern is how some compassion-fatigue is being felt by the caring people in church. I've heard recently idioms like "you make your bed, you must lie in it"
But its the issue of "Should ALL needs be met by the church, even if they are real needs and the church can meet them"
This mother is on state benefits well in excess of the earned income of all earners in the church bar one. But again - its about the children, isn't it?

 

[seashale76]

In the US there are a variety of terms people use depending on the situation, most of them are not nice and, unfortunately, what people are called sometimes depends on race and/or if they live in a rural or urban area. Council flats would be called section eight or the projects. One way of referring to this woman would be to call her a welfare queen. Other terms would be redneck, ghetto, or trailer trash. It's well known that some women have a lot of children to get more assistance.

Years ago, when people were on food assistance it was called welfare/food stamps. They were given literal stamps kind of like they did on the old ration cards. Now, they are given credit cards with an amount for food called EBT. There are a lot of shenanigans that go on with people buying things with EBT that they aren't legally allowed to, and store owners, etc. sometimes turn a blind eye. For example, you can't buy hygiene products with EBT.

Regarding this woman, if there is evidence that she is making some changes, then I don't think now would be the time to abandon the help and compassion. Yeah, she's made some awful decisions in her life that she can't undo, and maybe she's overwhelmed and doesn't know what else to do. I also suppose that if going above and beyond has really been a true help to her, then that has obviously made an impact on her (and her kids). The grumblers may need to be reminded that it is about the kids and that it is better to do too much than not enough or nothing. You all don't really know what kind of impact your actions will make on someone else spiritually either. Like I said earlier- I think decorating her flat was a little too far- but I'm imagining flowers and picture frames. For all I know you all made sure the kids had beds and they had a couch or something- and that isn't a bad thing at all.

The church should take care of their own- and this woman has attached herself to your church community. However- it is situational- how much should be done for people. Definitely keep holding this woman and her kids up in prayer.