Charles Darwin

Tom 1

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Darwin never made a profession of faith, the closest he ever came is he signed a boilerplate doctrinal statement when he graduated from college. From his autobiography.

I read with great care Pearson on the Creeds and a few other books on divinity; and as I did not then in the least doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible, I soon persuaded myself that our Creed must be fully accepted....

But I had gradually come, by this time, to see that the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow as a sign, etc., etc., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian...

By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported...

Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.

And this is a damnable doctrine. (Charles Darwin's Autobiography)
Darwin accepted creeds he was exposed to, just accepting them without any indication of personal conversion. Over time he categorically rejected miracles, expressed famously in On the Origin of Species. His strongest words for religion are with regard to hell, he father and brother were atheists so he expected this meant they are doomed to perdition. This he rejects in no uncertain terms.

He was a life long agnostic and by the end of his life an avowed atheist. While I don't believe he was a bad man, he was never in any way shape or form a Christian.

There’s a little more to it than those quotes, and your intreptation of them, but I’m not going to argue the toss with you. I don’t see it as relevant, but it does seem that you are trying to put a particular spin on this that makes me ask why.
 
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Tom 1

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Treating redemptive history as fanciful poetic fantasy is equally false. The first five books of the Old Testament and the first five books of the New Testament are historical narratives. The divorce of Christian theism from history, including creation week, is to abandon the core doctrines of the Scriptures.

Those aren’t the only options. Interpreting the Bible with some care and attention, rather than just taking it to mean whatever you happen to think, is not treating it as fanciful poetic fantasy
 
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mark kennedy

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Those aren’t the only options. Interpreting the Bible with some care and attention, rather than just taking it to mean whatever you happen to think, is not treating it as fanciful poetic fantasy
I have studied the Scriptures in depth, I know what the creation account includes and there is no figurative language.
 
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mark kennedy

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There’s a little more to it than those quotes, and your intreptation of them, but I’m not going to argue the toss with you. I don’t see it as relevant, but it does seem that you are trying to put a particular spin on this that makes me ask why.
No spin, but I've studied the subject matter and spent a great deal of time unwavering Darwinian natural history. I know what Charles Darwin was and he was never a Christian. By the end of his life he was a avowed atheist. That's not my interpretation, that's the clear meaning of what he wrote in his own words.
 
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Ancient of Days

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The belief in a literal and inerrant Bible and the rejection of the Theory of Evolution is actually a minority position in the worldwide Christian community. However in parts of the USA it is sometimes the majority understanding

Appeal to majority is a logical fallacy. The acceptance of TOE by Christians is the destruction of their faith. Its the fatal compromise that under pins the rest of scripture and opens the door to allow Satan to have his way in them. " a little yeast works through the whole dough"
 
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Darwin never made a profession of faith, the closest he ever came is he signed a boilerplate doctrinal statement when he graduated from college. From his autobiography.

I read with great care Pearson on the Creeds and a few other books on divinity; and as I did not then in the least doubt the strict and literal truth of every word in the Bible, I soon persuaded myself that our Creed must be fully accepted....

But I had gradually come, by this time, to see that the Old Testament from its manifestly false history of the world, with the Tower of Babel, the rainbow as a sign, etc., etc., and from its attributing to God the feelings of a revengeful tyrant, was no more to be trusted than the sacred books of the Hindoos, or the beliefs of any barbarian...

By further reflecting that the clearest evidence would be requisite to make any sane man believe in the miracles by which Christianity is supported...

Disbelief crept over me at a very slow rate, but was at last complete. The rate was so slow that I felt no distress, and have never since doubted even for a single second that my conclusion was correct. I can indeed hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished.

And this is a damnable doctrine. (Charles Darwin's Autobiography)
Darwin accepted creeds he was exposed to, just accepting them without any indication of personal conversion. Over time he categorically rejected miracles, expressed famously in On the Origin of Species. His strongest words for religion are with regard to hell, he father and brother were atheists so he expected this meant they are doomed to perdition. This he rejects in no uncertain terms.

He was a life long agnostic and by the end of his life an avowed atheist. While I don't believe he was a bad man, he was never in any way shape or form a Christian.

Do you know why Fundamentalists single out Darwin as a purveyor of evil, but don't complain about other people, such as Hutton, Lamarck, or Champollion, whose work appeared to contradict the Fundamentalist interpretation?
 
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Tom 1

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Appeal to majority is a logical fallacy. The acceptance of TOE by Christians is the destruction of their faith. Its the fatal compromise that under pins the rest of scripture and opens the door to allow Satan to have his way in them. " a little yeast works through the whole dough"

TOE doesn’t affect my faith in the slightest, and I don’t see why it should. I don’t have to look at the Bible through other people’s eyes. I think sometimes people get the idea that God is some old religious duffer who doesn’t get all the ‘sciency’ stuff. We have no idea how complex and layered God’s creation is
 
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mark kennedy

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Do you know why Fundamentalists single out Darwin as a purveyor of evil, but don't complain about other people, such as Hutton, Lamarck, or Champollion, whose work appeared to contradict the Fundamentalist interpretation?
They haven't singled him out, in fact I quoted quoting Lamarck. I didn't say he was evil I said he was an atheist and he categorically rejected miracles. There are a long line of contributors to Darwinism including Oliver Wendel Holmes, Herbert Spencer, Asa Grey and others. I know why creationists are opposed to Darwinism, it's because the Christian faith is predicated on miracles a fundamental insight even Charles Darwin understood.
 
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mark kennedy

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TOE doesn’t affect my faith in the slightest, and I don’t see why it should. I don’t have to look at the Bible through other people’s eyes. I think sometimes people get the idea that God is some old religious duffer who doesn’t get all the ‘sciency’ stuff. We have no idea how complex and layered God’s creation is
First of all if God didn't create life in the beginning, why would be believe the promise of eternal life in the gospel? Also the 'sciency' stuff is far from conclusive with regards to universal common ancestry. Human lineage in particular is poorly supported in the fossil record and genomic comparisons.
 
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mark kennedy

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Appeal to majority is a logical fallacy. The acceptance of TOE by Christians is the destruction of their faith. Its the fatal compromise that under pins the rest of scripture and opens the door to allow Satan to have his way in them. " a little yeast works through the whole dough"
It's an existential principle of the Christian faith, God created life and has intervened in human affairs throughout our history. By the way, the historic narrative of Genesis 1 is confirmed in no uncertain terms in the New Testament witness.
 
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Ancient of Days

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TOE doesn’t affect my faith in the slightest, and I don’t see why it should. I don’t have to look at the Bible through other people’s eyes. I think sometimes people get the idea that God is some old religious duffer who doesn’t get all the ‘sciency’ stuff. We have no idea how complex and layered God’s creation is

That's called denial. You also teach others to do the same and the price for those consequences is eternal. If the creation account is not literally true as God described it, then the rest of the bible is unnecessary.
 
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Tom 1

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That's called denial. You also teach others to do the same and the price for those consequences is eternal. If the creation account is not literally true as God described it, then the rest of the bible is unnecessary.

Literally true according to whose interpretation? The text itself doesn’t support that, Christians recognised that 2000 yrs ago. I’m not going to get into an argument about it, I’d just suggest investing in some useful, solid commentaries on Genesis. There’s more to take into account that what you think when you read it, in English, in the 21st C
 
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Tom 1

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First of all if God didn't create life in the beginning, why would be believe the promise of eternal life in the gospel? Also the 'sciency' stuff is far from conclusive with regards to universal common ancestry. Human lineage in particular is poorly supported in the fossil record and genomic comparisons.

I do believe that God created life. Theories about how that happened exactly aren’t incompatible with that belief, because we don’t know how God did it. You don’t know that, I don’t know that, nobody does. The fact that God created life, and how that actually happened, what the process was, are 2 entirely separate issues. One is essential to know, the other is just a curiosity as far as I’m concerned. If we live long enough to see it then the 2 will come together eventually.
 
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mark kennedy

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I do believe that God created life. Theories about how that happened exactly aren’t incompatible with that belief, because we don’t know how God did it. You don’t know that, I don’t know that, nobody does. The fact that God created life, and how that actually happened, what the process was, are 2 entirely separate issues. One is essential to know, the other is just a curiosity as far as I’m concerned. If we live long enough to see it then the 2 will come together eventually.
No they are the same issue and how God created life was miraculous in no uncertain terms. The word translated 'created' in Genesis 1 is from the Qai form of the Hebrew word 'bara'. It is used only of God in that form. It is used to speak of the creation of the heavens and the earth, life in general and three times to speak of the creation of Adam and Eve. The naturalistic assumptions of Darwinism is simply incompatible with Christian theism, period.
 
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mark kennedy

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It says what it says, God is VERY CLEAR about that. At this point you only have two choices, you either believe him or you don't. It is very clear that YOU don't.
Yes and it's confirmed throughout the Old Testament and in the New Testament. In Luke's genealogy when he gets to Adam it calls him 'son of God', indicating he was created with no human parents. Creation is often one of the first statements before a doctrinal discussion, Hebrews 1, Romans 1, John 1 all affirm the doctrine of creation in no uncertain terms. With regards to interpreting Genesis 1 in some figurative way, there is one problem with that. Namely there is no figurative language.
 
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I have studied the Scriptures in depth, I know what the creation account includes and there is no figurative language.

I too have studied the Scriptures in depth, I know what the creation account includes and it is almost entirely figurative language.
 
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Darwinism Must Die So That Evolution May Live --- By CARL SAFINA

"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat-catching," Robert Darwin told his son, "and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family." Yet the feckless boy is everywhere. Charles Darwin gets so much credit, we can’t distinguish evolution from him. Equating evolution with Charles Darwin ignores 150 years of discoveries, including most of what scientists understand about evolution. Such as: Gregor Mendel’s patterns of heredity (which gave Darwin’s idea of natural selection a mechanism — genetics — by which it could work); the discovery of DNA (which gave genetics a mechanism and lets us see evolutionary lineages); developmental biology (which gives DNA a mechanism); studies documenting evolution in nature (which converted the hypothetical to observable fact); evolution’s role in medicine and disease (bringing immediate relevance to the topic); and more. By propounding "Darwinism," even scientists and science writers perpetuate an impression that evolution is about one man, one book, one "theory." The ninth-century Buddhist master Lin Chi said, "If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him." The point is that making a master teacher into a sacred fetish misses the essence of his teaching. So let us now kill Darwin.

That all life is related by common ancestry, and that populations change form over time, are the broad strokes and fine brushwork of evolution. But Darwin was late to the party. His grandfather, and others, believed new species evolved. Farmers and fanciers continually created new plant and animal varieties by selecting who survived to breed, thus handing Charles Darwin an idea. All Darwin perceived was that selection must work in nature, too. In 1859, Darwin’s perception and evidence became "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or The Preservation of Favored Races in the Struggle for Life." Few realize he published 8 books before and 10 books after "Origin." He wrote seminal books on orchids, insects, barnacles and corals. He figured out how atolls form, and why they’re tropical. Credit Darwin’s towering genius. No mind ran so freely, so widely or so freshly over the hills and vales of existence. But there’s a limit to how much credit is reasonable. Parking evolution with Charles Darwin overlooks the limits of his time and all subsequent progress.

Science was primitive in Darwin’s day. Ships had no engines. Not until 1842, six years after Darwin’s Beagle voyage, did Richard Owen coin the term "dinosaur." Darwin was an adult before scientists began debating whether germs caused disease and whether physicians should clean their instruments. In 1850s London, John Snow fought cholera unaware that bacteria caused it. Not until 1857 did Johann Carl Fuhlrott and Hermann Schaaffhausen announce that unusual bones from the Neander Valley in Germany were perhaps remains of a very old human race. In 1860 Louis Pasteur performed experiments that eventually disproved "spontaneous generation," the idea that life continually arose from nonliving things. Science has marched on. But evolution can seem uniquely stuck on its founder. We don’t call astronomy Copernicism, nor gravity Newtonism. "Darwinism" implies an ideology adhering to one man’s dictates, like Marxism. And "isms" (capitalism, Catholicism, racism) are not science. "Darwinism" implies that biological scientists "believe in" Darwin’s "theory." It’s as if, since 1860, scientists have just ditto-headed Darwin rather than challenging and testing his ideas, or adding vast new knowledge.

Using phrases like "Darwinian selection" or "Darwinian evolution" implies there must be another kind of evolution at work, a process that can be described with another adjective. For instance, "Newtonian physics" distinguishes the mechanical physics Newton explored from subatomic quantum physics. So "Darwinian evolution" raises a question: What’s the other evolution? Into the breach: intelligent design. I am not quite saying Darwinism gave rise to creationism, though the "isms" imply equivalence. But the term "Darwinian" built a stage upon which "intelligent" could share the spotlight.

Charles Darwin didn’t invent a belief system. He had an idea, not an ideology. The idea spawned a discipline, not disciples. He spent 20-plus years amassing and assessing the evidence and implications of similar, yet differing, creatures separated in time (fossils) or in space (islands). That’s science. That’s why Darwin must go.

Almost everything we understand about evolution came after Darwin, not from him. He knew nothing of heredity or genetics, both crucial to evolution. Evolution wasn’t even Darwin’s idea. Darwin’s grandfather Erasmus believed life evolved from a single ancestor. "Shall we conjecture that one and the same kind of living filaments is and has been the cause of all organic life?" he wrote in "Zoonomia" in 1794. He just couldn’t figure out how. Charles Darwin was after the how. Thinking about farmers’ selective breeding, considering the high mortality of seeds and wild animals, he surmised that natural conditions acted as a filter determining which individuals survived to breed more individuals like themselves. He called this filter "natural selection." What Darwin had to say about evolution basically begins and ends right there. Darwin took the tiniest step beyond common knowledge. Yet because he perceived — correctly — a mechanism by which life diversifies, his insight packed sweeping power.

But he wasn’t alone. Darwin had been incubating his thesis for two decades when Alfred Russel Wallace wrote to him from Southeast Asia, independently outlining the same idea. Fearing a scoop, Darwin’s colleagues arranged a public presentation crediting both men. It was an idea whose time had come, with or without Darwin. Darwin penned the magnum opus. Yet there were weaknesses. Individual variation underpinned the idea, but what created variants? Worse, people thought traits of both parents blended in the offspring, so wouldn’t a successful trait be diluted out of existence in a few generations? Because Darwin and colleagues were ignorant of genes and the mechanics of inheritance, they couldn’t fully understand evolution.

Gregor Mendel, an Austrian monk, discovered that in pea plants inheritance of individual traits followed patterns. Superiors burned his papers posthumously in 1884. Not until Mendel’s rediscovered "genetics" met Darwin’s natural selection in the "modern synthesis" of the 1920s did science take a giant step toward understanding evolutionary mechanics. Rosalind Franklin, James Watson and Francis Crick bestowed the next leap: DNA, the structure and mechanism of variation and inheritance.

Darwin’s intellect, humility ("It is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance") and prescience astonish more as scientists clarify, in detail he never imagined, how much he got right. But our understanding of how life works since Darwin won’t swim in the public pool of ideas until we kill the cult of Darwinism. Only when we fully acknowledge the subsequent century and a half of value added can we really appreciate both Darwin’s genius and the fact that evolution is life’s driving force, with or without Darwin.
 
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