Charismatic Movement inm Main Line

Dr.Strangelove said:

All we need is scripture. If we follow the truth of the Bible we become spotless by the Grace of God.

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I'm sorry buddy but people have tried to maintain that stance for centuries, it has never worked. It has never stopped GOD from handing out His gifts to folks, and it will never stop GOD from handing out the gifts.

It just won't work, sorry.

hello:
i think what happens with the person desiring these supernatural gifts (the Scriptures and experience clearly show ceased after the birth of the early Church), is that one's eyes fall away from Jesus; there is an hyper-focus on The Holy Spirit (Who will be testifying of Jesus); and the written Word wherein God has revealed Himself (its about JESUS) takes a lower place of importance in one's life.


Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

this New Testament passage clearly states God spoke in days past by prophets.

it states clearly in the last days God speaks to us through His Son: Jesus. Jesus' words and deeds are recorded in His Word.

we are quickened by The Holy Spirit (our earnest) and enabled to understand the Word, which reveals Jesus, and God's Plan (centered around Jesus), and we are Comforted and Helped by the Holy Spirit to understand and proclaim what?:

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Mark 1:15
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


i have read in this thread that the Holy Spirit is given to enable THE CHURCH, Christ's Body with supernatural powers (to raise the dead, heal the sick, speaking in tongues - these were KNOWN languages) and that any lacking in this ability are not saved or "right".....but is that what the Scriptures say?

what about the ultimate CHURCH epistle, Ephesians?

Ephesians 5
15See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. 18And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ; 21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

notice the list of things that happen in The Church as The Holy Spirit fills the members.

1) psalms (written Word)
2) singing (worship, praise)
3) giving thanks (thanksgiving, Glory to God)
4) submitting to one another (serving, helping)

Big Drew said:

Funny that...If all we needed was scripture and to follow the truth, then I doubt there would be 40,000 Christian denominations, with the majority of them believing some form of Sola Scriptura..................

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And it is interesting also to note the amount of Christians operating in the gifts,..

Estimated to number around 115 million followers worldwide in 2000, Pentecostalism is sometimes referred to as the "third force of Christianity", the first two being Catholicism and Protestantism.[41] Pentecostal and Charismatic church growth is rapid in many parts of the world.[42][43] The great majority of Pentecostals are to be found in developing countries although much of their international leadership is still in North America. The movement is enjoying its greatest surge today in the global South, which includes Africa, Latin America, and most of Asia.[44][45] One reason for this growth is Pentecostalism's appeal to the poor.[46] According to a United Nations report, the movement has "been the most successful at recruiting its members from the poorest of the poor."[47]
In 1998, there were about 11,000 different Pentecostal or charismatic denominations worldwide.[citation needed] The largest Pentecostal denomination in the world, the Assemblies of God, claims approximately 57 million adherents worldwide.[48] It has a significant presence in many countries including Cuba, Egypt, India, Indonesia and Nigeria.[49] The Church of God (Cleveland, Tennessee) has a membership of over 6 million,[50] the Church of God in Christ has a membership of 5.5 million,[2] the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel has 5 million members, the United Pentecostal Church International has a membership of over 4 million,[51] and the International Pentecostal Holiness Church has over 3 million members.[52]
The largest single Pentecostal church in the world is the Yoido Full Gospel Church in South Korea. Founded and led by David Yonggi Cho since 1958, it has to 1 million members in 2007.[53] Australia's largest church, Hillsong, is an Assemblies of God in Australia church with a membership exceeding 19,000

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Going off just the wiki source,.. Pentecostalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Thing is here, this is growing by leaps and bounds, it is not falling away. Cessionalists have spoken out against these activities for years now, and they have not slowed it down at all, Christians are still receiving GOD's gifts.

if possible (and i do believe it is very important), could i get the names of some of the Charismatic leaders that are working around the world right now?

i believe the Word when it commands us to test all things.

anyone, if you could tell me some of the ministries or persons by name i need to know.

thanks

~ child

ARBITER01 said:

And it is interesting also to note the amount of Christians operating in the gifts,..

Thing is here, this is growing by leaps and bounds, it is not falling away. Cessionalists have spoken out against these activities for years now, and they have not slowed it down at all, Christians are still receiving GOD's gifts.

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what you have said is true: those who question this THIRD WAVE have not slowed it down: but what does that have to do with legitimacy?


from that wiki entry:

Other distinctive practices
Besides spiritual gifts, some Pentecostals believe they experience other manifestations (physical responses) of the Holy Spirit's presence. Two of the most well known examples are dancing in the Spirit and, what has been described as,[25] a form of prostration known as being "slain in the Spirit".[26] While phenomena such as these have been present in Pentecostalism from the beginning, not all Pentecostals agree with the biblical legitimacy and appropriateness of certain or all forms of physical manifestations. The frequency and prominence of their occurrence in a Pentecostal worship service can vary, from being common in one local church to being nonexistent in another. Slaying and dancing in the Spirit are two such practices originating in classical Pentecostalism but are now more common among independent neo-Pentecostal and charismatic groups.

Traditionally, dancing in the Spirit has been defined as,
Slaying or resting in the Spirit (also known as "falling under the power") is a phenomenon in which a person falls (usually) backwards while being prayed over.[26] It is believed by Pentecostals to be caused by "an overwhelming experience of the presence of God".[27] While not an example of manifestations of the Spirit, the "Jericho march" is an example of a rare traditional Pentecostal practice that has not seen revival in the independent charismatic churches. It involves a congregation marching with loud shouts of prayer and singing.[28]

While the classical Pentecostal denominations form a major part of the movement over the years, many smaller independent groups not connected to the historical churches have developed. Often centered around a charismatic leader, these "latest move of God" groups are constantly emerging and dividing the movement, creating more variety but also schism and bitterness. Some of these independent movements include the followers of Charles Simpson in the Covenant churches movement, the followers of Kenneth Hagin and Kenneth Copeland in the Word of Faith movement, and the followers of Earl Paulk in the Kingdom Now theology.[40] Some of these groups have been successful in utilizing the mass media, especially television and radio, to spread their message.

These new movements are often at odds with the classical Pentecostals over disagreements in doctrine and practice. Many classical Pentecostal leaders seek to distance themselves and their organizations from these newer movements.

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i am curious to know how many here experience the above manifestations (i.e.: slain in the spirit, etc) and can document that it is Biblical from The Word...please document. thanks. also, have you been taught you are not saved without the outward sign of these things?

so, it seems numbers don't matter, since there are splitting and schisms continually. there may be millions experiencing this Third Wave, but they are forming small sects. sects can become cults.

more on AoG to follow.

child of Jesus said:

what you have said is true: those who question this THIRD WAVE have not slowed it down: but what does that have to do with legitimacy?

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Has everything to do with it, if it was false, like all the cessionalists have claimed for years, it would have died out.

It is not slowing down one bit for supposedly being something false, in fact, I think those numbers are greater than the baptists, but I haven't checked that.

ARBITER01 said:

I'm sorry buddy but people have tried to maintain that stance for centuries, it has never worked. It has never stopped GOD from handing out His gifts to folks, and it will never stop GOD from handing out the gifts.

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It works fine until people start messing with stuff they wern't meant to.

ARBITER01 said:

And it is interesting also to note the amount of Christians operating in the gifts,..

Thing is here, this is growing by leaps and bounds, it is not falling away. Cessionalists have spoken out against these activities for years now, and they have not slowed it down at all, Christians are still receiving GOD's gifts.

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How very very true. The signs and wonders crowd are growing. There are millions out there. Soon they will be the majority.

It's not falling away.

It IS the falling away!

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;'

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

wiki:
Estimated to number around 115 million followers worldwide in 2000, Pentecostalism is sometimes referred to as the "third force of Christianity", the first two being Catholicism and Protestantism.[41] Pentecostal and Charismatic church growth is rapid in many parts of the world.[42][43] The great majority of Pentecostals are to be found in developing countries although much of their international leadership is still in North America. The movement is enjoying its greatest surge today in the global South, which includes Africa, Latin America, and most of Asia.[44][45] One reason for this growth is Pentecostalism's appeal to the poor.[46] According to a United Nations report, the movement has "been the most successful at recruiting its members from the poorest of the poor."[47]

....................


John Wimber/Vineyard/Third Wave
"John Wimber's teachings about "paradigm shifts" and "worldviews" are very similar to those in the New Age movement, which seeks to draw people into Eastern mysticism. New Age philosophy also attacks Christianity as being a product of Western "rationalism" and "scientism" in its attempts to shift people's thinking away from rational thought to the non-rational base associated with Eastern religions. It is also comparable in most ways to the blind leap of faith into a non-reasoned relgious experience of existentialism. True Christianity never includes the demand for a non-reasoned blind leap of faith. Paul said," I know whom I have believed in ...". This concept originated with the Babylonian Mystery religions and were require for the initiate to enter into the deeper mysteries of this mother of all false religions and heresy. If you have not had the chance to read Hysop's "The Two Babylon's' ", I encourage you to purchase that book and investigate for your self the bizarre connection with the present day and the days of Nimrod." (Testing The Fruit Of The Vineyard, John Goodwin, Pastor, Solid Rock Christian Fellowship, Testing Fruits of the Vineyard)

Influence Links Of The Third Wave Movement

Dr.Strangelove said:

It works fine until people start messing with stuff they wern't meant to.



How very very true. The signs and wonders crowd are growing. There are millions out there. Soon they will be the majority.

It's not falling away.

It IS the falling away!

2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;'

2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

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Sorry fella, make all the personal claims against GOD and His gifts all you wish, but they are worthless, and you know it. They do nothing since they are empty claims.

Pentecostalism is going to outgrow the protestant churches. Start crying now.

ARBITER01 said:

Pentecostalism is going to outgrow the protestant churches. Start crying now.

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I weep for those trapped in that system.

Indeed only a remnant of the true Church of God will remain. We've always been a minority and persecuted by the masses. Nothing new under the sun.

I believe a multitude will come from the tribulation though. Those who come to Christ in those times and havn't been caught in the web of false doctrine.

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Dr.Strangelove said:

I weep for those trapped in that system.

Indeed only a remnant of the true Church of God will remain. We've always been a minority and persecuted by the masses. Nothing new under the sun.

I believe a multitude will come from the tribulation though. Those who come to Christ in those times and havn't been caught in the web of false doctrine.

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Sorry fella, no one is persecuting you except yourself.

Check those numbers again, GOD doesn't raise illegitimate children friend, making claims that all those folks are just deceived hasn't stopped GOD one bit has it?

You're ambition in this area is worthless, it has no results.

Church-growth specialist C. Peter Wagner in his book, “The Third Wave of the Holy Spirit” first used the term, “Third Wave Movement.” It originated at Fuller Theological Seminary in 1981 under the classroom ministry of John Wimber, founder of the Association of Vineyard Churches (see Vineyard Christian Fellowship - An Expose). Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” Like the charismatic renewal, the Third Wave Movement is a renewal and revival movement.

Third Wavers are difficult to classify doctrinally because there is a de-emphasis on doctrine. As a result, doctrine can vary widely. See Third Wave Doctrines

The book, Charismatic Chaos by John MacArthur can be read on-line (scroll down to the charismatic chaos section). Chapter 6 of this book deals with The Third Wave (John MacArthur)

From Bible.org comes a well written academic article well worth reading: Excited Utterances: A Historical Perspective On Prophesy, Tongues and Other Manifestations of Spiritual Ecstasy (Dr Matthew Allen)

Below are some characteristics of the Third Wave movement:

1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture. Third Wavers thus deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement. This is a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry by Robert M. Bowman.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

5. Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. These miracles made people interested in the Good News. This is how we should evangelize today. A Power Encounter happens when the Kingdom of God encounters the Kingdom of Satan. It is here when God shows his power over Satan and people turn to the Lord.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom. The ushering in of the kingdom depends on the church. Instead of looking for the coming Savior, the church is to solve the problems of planet earth. God’s glory now replaces the physical Son of God coming back.

8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body. Even a Christian can be demonized. A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

9. Kingdom Now; Kingdom-Dominion; Restoration Theology (This is also associated with the House-church and Restoration movements. For more information, see Kingdom Theology. For an excellent article on this subject, well worth reading, see Ten reasons to reject Kingdom-Dominion teaching. Another article to read is Dominion Theology, Kingdom Now Theology, Recontructionism.

10. A favorite Scripture that those associated with this movement like to quote is Isaiah 43:19 “Behold, I will do a new thing.” For more information, see The New Thing.

Pentecostal, Charismatic, Third Wave Movements

child of Jesus said:

Habakkuk 2:4
“Behold, his soul is puffed up; it is not upright within him, but the righteous shall live by his faith.

James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Hebrews 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if [any man] draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Romans 1:17
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Romans 9:30
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

Romans 10:2
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

Romans 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Galatians 3:11
But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

2 Corinthians 5:7
(For we walk by faith, not by sight)

Hebrews 11:1
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

Matthew 16:4
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

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KABLAMMO!!!

I guess we live by faith then, not by miracles?

Shall we add Mr. Arbiters sig in there for good measure?

"There's no glory in the flesh, and no heavenly reward either."

1 Corinthians 1
20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

what are called to do? what are we empowered to do?

"But we preach Christ crucified."






Third Wave Teachers:

C. Peter Wagner

Quotes from C. Peter WagnerNew Apostolic ReformationTHE GOSPEL AND SPIRITUAL WARFARE: A REVIEW OF PETER WAGNER’S CONFRONTING THE POWERSWelcome the new prophets to head of the churchApologetics Research
Rick Joyner

Rick Joyner is a Gnostic. The Apologetics Research Resources on Religious Cults, Sects, Religions, Doctrines etc. has written some articles on Third Wave teachers and teachings. This research organization believes Rick Joyner and Morningstar Ministries to be one the most unsound and dangerous teachers around. His error-filled, unorthodox teachings include (but are not limited to) Kingdom Now (or Dominion) theology, extra-biblical revelation, and the denial of the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. Rick Joyner is a Third Wave teacher and has written many books including The Final Quest which is about Joyner's vision on what he sees is a civil war now underway in Christendom between those who support the new thing God is doing today (called the "move of God") and those who oppose it. Those who oppose the "move" as seen by Joyner, comprise the hordes of hell. The "move of God" Joyner supports is the Toronto Blessing and similar renewal and revival movements. Oppose this 'new thing God is doing' and you're in trouble. He has declared war on those who oppose the New Thing God is doing. See Rick Joyner, Christian Gnostic: Civil War for details.

Other Third Wave teachers

Other Third Wave teachers include Jack Deere, Ted Haggard, Bill Hamon, Cindy Jacobs, George Ortis Jr. and,Dutch Sheets. Click here for more information.
Unbiblical Doctrines, Teachings and Phenomena of the Third Wave Counterfeit Revival Movement
Quotes from Third Wave leaders

Dr.Strangelove said:

KABLAMMO!!!

I guess we live by faith then, not by miracles?

Shall we add Mr. Arbiters sig in there for good measure?

"There's no glory in the flesh, and no heavenly reward either."

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Hows that campaign against against GOD's gifts going?

Any results?

ARBITER01 said:

Sorry fella, no one is persecuting you except yourself.

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I stay away. But I'm sure they will get to me at some point.

ARBITER01 said:

Check those numbers again, GOD doesn't raise illegitimate children friend, making claims that all those folks are just deceived hasn't stopped GOD one bit has it?

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God doesn't raise them no, you are correct.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the 'falling away'?

Where are false teachers gonna be mostly hanging out?

Are church buildings safe havens from apostacy?

Dr.Strangelove said:

I stay away. But I'm sure they will get to me at some point.



God doesn't raise them no, you are correct.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on the 'falling away'?

Where are false teachers gonna be mostly hanging out?

Are church buildings safe havens from apostacy?

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How's that cessionalist campaign again? Any news from the battle front?

ARBITER01 said:

Hows that campaign against against GOD's gifts going?

Any results?

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Kundalini spirits are not Gods gifts.

YouTube - SHOCKING DOCUMENTARY 1- False spirits invade the church - KUNDALINI WARNING - Andrew Strom -Part 1

ARBITER01 said:

How's that cessionalist campaign again? Any news from the battle front?

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Fine thanks.

The news is Arbiter seems to be running out of steam.

He's not responding to the topic anymore.