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Changing Christians

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a.d.ivNonasNovembres

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Over the ages the predominant voice of Christians as recorded has changed significantly.
Has Christianity changed, or is it just that those professing Christianity with the influence in society to represent it has changed? If the latter why has the "face of Christianity" changed (taking some of the below questions as a reference)? If the former:

Why has Christianity changed?
Is it a good or a bad thing that it has changed?
Is the Christianity of the present closer or further from Christ (or neither, or both!) than the Christianities of past centuries?
Is present day Christianity too effeminate? Why or why not?
Or was past Christianity too masculine? (surely not? twas always feminine compared to paganism wasn't it?) Why or why not?
How have socio-political changes influenced Christianity, should they have or should Christianity have risen above them?
How have theological disputes effected the socio-political development of society?
 

a.d.ivNonasNovembres

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Eastern Christianity has not changed since 33AD.
Currently reading a book about Christianity in Kiev. It disagrees with this statement.
I cannot judge the book as it is the first thing on the topic I have ever seen.
 
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E.C.

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Well, in that case...

Are we speaking about Eastern or Western Christianity because Eastern Christianity has had...

1) No Reformation. People attempt to argue that the Old-Believer Schism was a 'reformation' when in reality it was a schism over nothing theological but things like how Jesus is to be spelled in Slavonic and how one is to cross oneself.
2) The only sort of 'development' or 'change' that one can argue happened within Eastern Christianity were things that happened as a reaction to something else. Example: canonization of the Bible; it occurred because the Gnostics spread their fraudulent 'gospels' and thus the Church as a whole had to say what was what. Basically, there is no 'change for change sake' in the East.
3) There are only Seven Ecumenical Councils in the East as opposed to Rome's twenty-something.
4) The last major change in Eastern Liturgy occurred in the 5th century with the creation of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which shortened the Liturgy from two to two and a half hours to an average hour and a half.


I could go further, but the point being are we speaking of Western or Eastern Christianity? I ask only because it would help greatly.:)
 
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BrendanMark

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Well, in that case...

Are we speaking about Eastern or Western Christianity because Eastern Christianity has had...

1) No Reformation. People attempt to argue that the Old-Believer Schism was a 'reformation' when in reality it was a schism over nothing theological but things like how Jesus is to be spelled in Slavonic and how one is to cross oneself.
2) The only sort of 'development' or 'change' that one can argue happened within Eastern Christianity were things that happened as a reaction to something else. Example: canonization of the Bible; it occurred because the Gnostics spread their fraudulent 'gospels' and thus the Church as a whole had to say what was what. Basically, there is no 'change for change sake' in the East.
3) There are only Seven Ecumenical Councils in the East as opposed to Rome's twenty-something.
4) The last major change in Eastern Liturgy occurred in the 5th century with the creation of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom which shortened the Liturgy from two to two and a half hours to an average hour and a half.


I could go further, but the point being are we speaking of Western or Eastern Christianity? I ask only because it would help greatly.:)

Of course Eastern thought, culture, Christianity and interpretation has changed since 33ad. It was the East that had all the heresies and Christological controversies that required the councils in the first place , if nothing else. And to deny the place of the filioque (as a theological difference) in the Schism is just ridiculous.

But here's one example of the thought of St John of Damascus being a tad different to St Gregory the Theologian on a basic matter of theological import:

. . . Gregory would also reject any notion of Trinitarian perichoresis that conceives of the divine life as being purely reciprocal and not eternally based in the monarchy of the Father—as if, once the Father establishes the consubstantial Trinity, the hierarchical structure of the divine generations gives way to a purely reciprocal exchange of Divinity. Gregory is insistent that the three persons do not mingle with one another in such a way that their identities relative to one another change (20.7), and he is equally clear that the father is always the source of Divinity in the Son and the Spirit. However much one wants to ally him with the tradition of perichoresis found in the Peusdo-Cyril and John of Damascus, it must be borne in mind that for Gregory the divine life is eternally rooted and expressed in the monarchy of the Father.
Beeley, Christopher A. – Gregory of Nazianzus on the Trinity and the Knowledge of God [Oxford Studies in Historical Theology, 2008, p.212-213]
 
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a.d.ivNonasNovembres

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When I say changes. Really I am talking about how in some ages Christianity was used to defend Imperial grandeur (or at least to defend rigid stratification in society) and in other ages Christianity was used to attack it.
And also how earlier Christianity (and in this case the East surely has changed less than the West I will grant) there was a greater emphasis on asceticism (which seemed paradoxically to be at its most emphasised around the same sort of time that the Imperial grandeur was...
 
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Rick Otto

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"The 4th century was a time of tremendous upheaval. The Emperor Constantine made Christianity the recognized religion of the empire after his conversion in 312 -- which might seem a solution to the problems of a church intermittently persecuted in its early days. But the immediately post-Constantinian time was a period of stressful growth for Christianity, which was torn by heresies, unsure of its own internal authorities, and launched on a new course of make-or-break ascetical adventures. At the very moment when Christianity seemed to have won worldly success, the spiritual leadership of that church became dramaticaly & intransigently otherworldly. While previously unexpected order was being imposed from the top down by Constantine - who ran church councils as his political right, broke heresies, and installed bishops - a different kind of authority was surging up from below, to heady acclaim from ordinary people. Priests & bishops were caught between these totaly different impulses. If they aligned themselves too simply with one of the two dynamics, they could suffer defeat from the other. An imperial discipline derived from the Roman state could leave them open to charges of corruption in the eyes of the purists of the desert communities. On the other hand, an alignment with the unruly monks & mystics of Syria could lead to Roman repression, to a bishop's loss of patronage, including his revenues & his see itself.
We can see stages of this struggle when Athenasius of Alexandria hid among the desert communities while on the run from the imperial police in the 360s. Another stage was marked when Theophilus of Alexandria and John Chrysostom of Constantinople used a band of insurgent monks as pawns in their own power game, bargaining for the best way to present the treatment of them to the emperor in the early fifth century. These are just two better known cases of the problem posed to bishops by the adventurous ascetics at the time of their greatest popular appeal. The authorities did not know how to deal with the people who were outside the normal parish structure, and who felt that they were too pure themselves to submit to compromising clerics who were married, or tainted by political power, or so far below them in our Lord's favor that to move down toward them rather than farther up toward God was to betray the ascetic calling itself.
The man who has made it possible for us modern folk to understand the extraordinary power of the ascetics of the 4th & 5th centuries is Peter Brown. In his The Body & Society (1988) and other works, he has described how these daring souls commandeered the imagination of their time. They were the astronauts of spiritual space haunted by demons, people who tortured themselves into an entirely new state of being. David Brakke has compared them to those "technicians of the self" conceived by Michael Foucault, men who make of their owm bodies and psyches the laboratories of a new anthropological era. Their celebrity, earned paradoxically far off the ancient urban map, drew crowds to them for adulation and consultation, for the aura of wisdom that no longer shone upon mere priests or politicians. The difference in moral authority between priests & ascetics can be seen from this: Gregory Nazianzus late denounced his own Christian parents for persuading him to renounce ascetic life to become a priest. John Chrysostom only became a priest after his health broke in the desert, forcing him to give up the ascetic life.
One way to reduce the gap between priestly & ascetic authority was for the priests to imitate the ascetics, trying to regain lost ground by becoming celibate themselves, by fasting in the city as well as in the desert. An even quicker solution might be to co-opt the ascetics, making them priests or bishops, so people could not so easily contrast the two orders to the detriment of the priests. But the desert saints resisted this tactic. To leave the desert, to give up the utopian egalitarianism of the monasteries or the splendid isolation of the hermitages, would be a descent to the ordinary after the long struggle up onto rarified heights. It would, in Gregory Nazianzus's words, be a surrender of the ascetics dangerous glamour for "the drudging commerce in souls". Athanasius had to beg the desert stars to become bishops, and he sometimes failed. When the famous monk Ammonius was summoned to take on his duty as a bishop, he sent back his left ear, and threatened to send his tounge if asked again - thus disqualifying himself for ordination.
Consecrated female virgins were also a potential power in the 4th century, as the Arians proved by giving them teachers who recruited them for the conflict with orthodox tinitarians like Athanasius. Athenasius responed in his own see of Alexandria by creating a body of writings that proved from scripture that women must be docile, unlearned, and sequestered. He could not use that approach to the male heroes of the desert. He wooed them instead with campaigns to integrate them into the life of the laity & parish churches, curbing their penitential excesses with scriptural arguments, encouraging them to be politically active (but on his side), and subtly reshaping the image of their great symbolic leader, Saint Antony.
Athanasius's Life of Antony is one of the spiritual classics. It would play a role in Augustine's conversion. It helped to spread the monastic ideal. But Athanasius inflated the reputation of the saint while reducing his prickly individuality to manageable dimensions. He played down, for instance, the learning that Antony displays in his surviving letters, making him a docile follower of Athenasius in his own attacks on the learned pretensions of Arians. In the biography, Antony is made to tell Neoplatonist philosophers:

"We Christians acquire secret wisdom not by skill in Greek arguments but by the power of faith dispensed to us through Jesus Christ... You cannot by your verbal enticings halt the advance of Christ's teaching, whereas we, by calling on the crucified Christ, can disperse those demons you revere as gods. Through the symbol of the cross, your magic becomes impotent, your potions ineffectual."

The power of the ascetic came through prayer, which worked miracles. Athanasius, even while celebrating this cleansing holiness, had to control it. In a typical contest between charismatic & institutional leadership, he won the contest by not claiming a total victory for his side. Instead, he relativized the differences between the two groups.Sometimes, he said, even bishops work miracles. And sometimes, by his careful promptings, even monks can submit to organizational disciplines. He made the monks more ecclesial and the priests more ascetical. This was an important step along the path to an entirely celibate priesthood. After all, some monks had refused to take the Eucharist from bishops they considered too worldly. One remedy for that was to make priests more ritually pure.
What gave the ascetics their renown, as Peter Brown emphasizes, was the perception of their spiritual powers. - to heal, to forsee, to exorcise, to defy the devil. Athanasius could not compete in this arena, miracle by miracle, but he could empphasize what power the priest had and the ascetic did not - the miraculous power to consecrate bread & wine and make it become the Lord. "Monks participated in the unity through receiving the sacraments at the hands of the bishops. By using this maneuver, Athanasius helped promote the idea of the priest as a person whose power resides in his eucharistic consecration. The Eucharist was Athanasius'strump card. If the monks would not be ordained themselves, they remained dependant on the bishops for "the celebration of Lent and Easter, because Christian Pasch was an epitome of the Christian life," no matter what other rites the ascetics could invent. Spiritual power surged up from below in the monks' triumphs over the body. But another kind of power struck from above, like lightening, and was distributed out through the consecrating hands of priests. This view could help along the tendancy to focus authority at the top of the hierarchic structure, where power to ordain channeled power to consecrate out among the priests. In time this power to consecrate would be seen as the essence of the priesthood. For many it still is. Paul VI speaks in his encyclical of "the ministry of the Eucharist, in which the whole spiritual good of the Church is contained."

The danger of this approach is that it seperates the priest from the community whose joint meal was the original condition of the Eucharist. We see that in the way the priest eventually began to celebrate the Eucharist by himself - after all, what really mattered was just his consecration of the sacred elements. Everything else could be dispensed with. This one power of the priest was the source of awe he could elicit from the faithful; it became a kind of magic potency. Folk legend among Catholics told of wierd uses the power could be put to. we heard such stories from the nuns. A fallen priest had only to pronounce the magic words over a bakery window, and all the bread would be turned into the Lord - so a pious priest would have to eat every last crumb in order to prevent others from desecrating the Lord's body. If a hurried communicant leaves the church with the Lord's body still undigested in him, an acolyte hurries along with a lighted candle to show the Lord is still present.
When I was young I used to serve a private Mass for a priest who was either so scrupulous or so pious that when he came to the purported words of consecration he sounded out each consonant and vowel seperately, as if making sure the magic formulae was given all its force: "Hoc est e-nim cor-pus me-um." A quantifying of the miracles arose, in which it was considered "wasteful" for priests to celebrate the Eucharist together since they could each consecrate that much more of the Lord if they said their seperate Masses. The original sign of union had become a means of seperation. The priest's private business at the altar was something the laity could only behold from afar, if at all, as the sanctuaries became a reserve for the priestly caste. The priest turned his back on the laity, as if huddled over his private mystery. Rood screens, or (later) communion rails, fenced the vulgar multitude off from the sacred proceeedings."

Papal Sin - Structures of Deceit by Garry Wills
 
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Rick Otto

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That was from a history professor at Northwestern U, a loyal RC who wants reform.
A larger perspective of the history of Church relations with broader Society can be seen in The Barbarian Conversion From Paganism to Christianity by Richard Fletcher
 
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Rhamiel

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http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html
here is an article about the masculine and feminine nature of the Evangelism and Catholicism respectivly
The Orthodox have changed less, but there has been change, evolution of doctrines, all kinda things. For one thing, there was a time when the Emperor had a lot of control over the Chruch in the East, now there is not even an Emperor
 
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E.C.

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http://www.mark-shea.com/fem.html
here is an article about the masculine and feminine nature of the Evangelism and Catholicism respectivly
The Orthodox have changed less, but there has been change, evolution of doctrines, all kinda things. For one thing, there was a time when the Emperor had a lot of control over the Chruch in the East, now there is not even an Emperor
They'll be back! :D

Reminds me of an article that was written about a year or so ago about why Orthodoxy is seeing more male converts than are other Christian Churches/denominations/sects/whatevers.


The difference between 'change' in the East and 'change' in the West, is that the East had councils when councils needed to be held and whatever 'change' came out of said councils was more so a way of defining stuff.

Example: Arianism and the Ecumenical Council at Nicea in 325. Arius started saying that Jesus was not God, or divine, that He was merely a created creature. The whole Church convened at Nicea to put an end to the dispute as called for by the Emperor, St. Constantine. Contrary to popular Protestant propoganda Constantine did not have an opinion towards the theological whatevers at the time, but merely convened the Council because A) he's the emperor and could pool the resources together for travel, food, etc B) Arianism has certainly shaken the Church as a whole and one can only imagine the sorts of riotings that happened because of it. He merely said "All you leader types, figure out a solution to this problem" and they did. Thus we have the Trinity which defines who is divine. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three persons, one in essence and undivided.

Was this Council called just for the sake of calling a Council? No, it had a purpose, a point and a solution to whatever the problems were that needed addressing at the time.

Then there are those in the West that call councils together merely for the sake of calling councils. Change for the sake of change and dogmas for the sake of dogma-making. Like Vatican II.
 
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a.d.ivNonasNovembres

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I would say that the changes the book I was reading talked about were not really the kind of things that happen in councils, but for instance the degree to which chronicalers allowed feudal warrior class values (from which many of them were drawn) to override their ecclesiastical values, as well as changes of emphasis between religion more based on the caritative principle and one more based on awe.

Of course the extent to which these changes happened is very disputable considering the lack of documentation, and due to the sketchy chronology of the documentation of the 13th and 14th centuries in Russia (a point the author makes himself) likewise it is not all the same geographically.

And in terms of the West too, I am not thinking of big changes in the sense of defining doctrines or disciplines within the Church in councils, but more the shift of ...atmosphere almost, from one originally centered around asceticism with a much thicker strain of "awe" very early on, becoming permeated with feudal values later and then finally from the renaissance on becoming more and more (although by no means in an entirely linear way and certainly not in unison across the geography) caritative.

Also all these strains do co-exist, its not like something entirely new came in but more that things were emphasised that had not been as emphasised and things that had been more emphasised became less so.

Of course it is possible its just an artifact of surviving sources. In the feudal age it may be more likely that things reflecting the values of the ruling class will be protected and disseminated, whilst speeches and writing which oppose those values or do not empasise them sink into oblivion etc

I want to say though about the Old Believers... of course in no sense do they come across like a Russian version of Protestantism. But, it strikes me that if those people had thought that the way you do the sign of the cross really does matter (and history vindicates they did it in the "older" way) is that really so different to the common saying lex orandi, lex credendi (I know the Orthodox have a similar saying but I don't know what it is). And yet both the Orthodox and the Catholic Churches have seen fit to say there are some things which can legitimately be changed, which all integralist ideas aside, don't make that much difference - in both cases the principle that you can change these things has been affirmed and that changing them does not change the faith. Once you have affimed that principle you can't just say "but we are better because we have changed less" since the legitimacy of some change has been affirmed, unless you can define why a ceirtain degree of change actually does change the faith itself and is illegitimate.
 
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