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Challenge: Is Evolution REALLY a theory in crisis?

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Warden_of_the_Storm

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This is a claim I've seen bandied around more times than once; that evolution is a 'theory in crisis'.

And yet not one person I've seen make that claim is able to actually say how or why it's in crisis.

So, this is my challenge: show me how and/or why the theory of evolution is a 'theory in crisis'?

If you say it's not, don't comment saying it's not, since that's not need for this thread.
 

Warden_of_the_Storm

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It's always in crisis and always changing, each branch of science holds to differing views of evolution.

But changing is what science does. New information replaces old information, completer information replaces incomplate information.

That does not mean that evolution is a theory in crisis. Just saying it is does not make it so.
 
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durangodawood

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It's always in crisis and always changing, each branch of science holds to differing views of evolution.
Could you briefly show us a couple of these divergent views so I could get a sense of what youre talking about?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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The question is… can you be shown

If they can present it, then I can be shown.

If you're only going to do your usual, one sentence snippet comments, then please just leave this thread.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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“Modern” humans are millions of years old


The idea of their evolution is contradicted

But it's not because there is no evidence of Homo Sapiens being millions of years old apart from the claims of one single person.

That does nothing to show that evolution is a theory in crisis.


There, you've said your piece, now go away.
 
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Gene2memE

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Michael Cremo also says modern humans are not recent. They’ve been present for millions of years

Michael Cremo is a victim of motivated reasoning. He holds to presuppositions about the age of humans, which are based on his religious beliefs.

His 'evidence' doesn't stand up to even the most basic of scrutiny. His books are less historically accurate than Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter.
 
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Gene2memE

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There was a movement, beginning around the middle of the 2000s, that the modern synthesis should be extended.

The argument was that the existing model needed to be widened to incorporate developmental concepts at the organism (rather than gene) level. This included new ideas from epigenetics, neo-Lamarkianism, evolutionary developmental biology and various selection and ecological models. This is known as the Extended Evolutionary Synthesis (EES).

This volume and pace of this movement has largely died down, or at least it has gone very quiet in the publicly available literature in the past few years.

What has occurred is that existing parts of the model have been expanded to incorporate these new ideas. Plus, there has been an acknowledgement that the impact of most of these ideas may have been overstated by their advocates and that there were overlaps with existing concepts within the existing structure.

So, they probably don't require a major revision to the framework to incorporate after-all.

Here's a review by the John Templeton Foundation - which is an organisation that has not exactly had a comfortable history with the modern conception of evolution - on the prospects for the EES.


It basically ended with the standard scientific cop-out when you can't get the answer you want - 'more research is needed'. The final sentence is a banger though: "It is sobering to realize that there will not be any “slam dunk” finding that will revolutionize evolutionary theory as we know it."
 
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AV1611VET

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And yet not one person I've seen make that claim is able to actually say how or why it's in crisis.

From the online etymology dictionary:

CRISIS: decisive point in the progress of a disease," also "vitally important or decisive state of things, point at which change must come, for better or worse,

Examples in evolution:

Pangenesis went into crisis and was worsened to the point of being dropped.

Lamarckism was obsoleted by Natural Selection.

Vitalism was obsoleted by organic chemistry.

Maternal impression was obsoleted by genetic theory.

Preformationism was obsoleted by cytology.

Haeckel's theory of embryo development is now considered defunct.

Telegony is now considered defunct.

Scientific racism was obsoleted by human evolutionary genetics.

Lampreys-as-Ancestory now considered defunct (after 150 years).

Evolution is a theory in crisis.
 
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Ivan Hlavanda

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This is a claim I've seen bandied around more times than once; that evolution is a 'theory in crisis'.

And yet not one person I've seen make that claim is able to actually say how or why it's in crisis.

So, this is my challenge: show me how and/or why the theory of evolution is a 'theory in crisis'?

If you say it's not, don't comment saying it's not, since that's not need for this

This is a claim I've seen bandied around more times than once; that evolution is a 'theory in crisis'.

And yet not one person I've seen make that claim is able to actually say how or why it's in crisis.

So, this is my challenge: show me how and/or why the theory of evolution is a 'theory in crisis'?

If you say it's not, don't comment saying it's not, since that's not need for this thread.
Could there be an evolution? Sure, but what about the forces that are driving it, where do they come from?

Where do laws of physics come from? How is it possible that gravity, energy etc can be messured? How can that there be equations so precise?

If you say there is no God, then life is just a coincidence, and so is your brain, how can you then trust your brain, how can you trust your conclusions and judgement? If you say we can trust our minds, that's the effect, what caused that? We trust ourselves because we were created, if we were not, why do people trust each other when everything is just random and nothing has any meaning? If you can trust your thoughts, then it is because your brain was designed. It is the reason why we trust our computers for example. Would you trust a computer if it was not designed?

C.S Lewis once said this:

“Supposing there was no intelligence behind the universe, no creative mind. In that case, nobody designed my brain for the purpose of thinking. It is merely that when the atoms inside my skull happen, for physical or chemical reasons, to arrange themselves in a certain way, this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But, if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? It's like upsetting a milk jug and hoping that the way it splashes itself will give you a map of London. But if I can't trust my own thinking, of course I can't trust the arguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist, or anything else. Unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought: so I can never use thought to disbelieve in God.”

How can our bodies be complex if no one designed them? If there is no creator, how can there be life from no life?

Evolution (if you say there is no God) never made any sense in the first place. It's bunch of non-sense, because if we say we were not created, then everything is just random and so are our brains, so how can we trust them for science?

Law of Biogenesis says that in nature, life comes from previously existing life of its own kind. Every single science experiment ever done in Biology proves this to be true.

Evolution? Maybe, but only because there is a creator.
 
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jayem

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I'm going off-topic here. But if any belief, mindset, or conjecture is in crisis, it's Christianity. This is pasted from from a Pew Research (a trustworthy polling organization) study in 2022:

"Since the 1990s, large numbers of Americans have left Christianity to join the growing ranks of U.S. adults who describe their religious identity as atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular.” This accelerating trend is reshaping the U.S. religious landscape, leading many people to wonder what the future of religion in America might look like...

Depending on whether religious switching continues at recent rates, speeds up or stops entirely, the projections show Christians of all ages shrinking from 64% to between a little more than half (54%) and just above one-third (35%) of all Americans by 2070. Over that same period, “nones” would rise from the current 30% to somewhere between 34% and 52% of the U.S. population."


This isn't necessarily a rejection of religion. Traditional Christian doctrines are being replaced by a sort of free-form spirituality. In most western European countries, this has been going on for several decades. The graph in the link suggests that a steady decline in Americans identifying as Christians is a distinct possibility. This isn't a certainty. But it's quite plausible.

Modeling the Future of Religion in America

Sorry for going off-topic.
 
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Gene2memE

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Could there be an evolution? Sure, but what about the forces that are driving it, where do they come from?

Variation (through mutation), passed on via heredity and conserved/exhausted through natural selection.


Where do laws of physics come from?

The 'laws' of physics are just human descriptions of observed physical phenomena.

It may be that universes capable of supporting intelligent life are only possible within a small range of certain physical parameters. Or, it may be that there are other universes that have different physical characteristics to our own.

How is it possible that gravity, energy etc can be messured? How can that there be equations so precise?

Math is a symbolic language (actually a series of languages) invented by humans to describe reality. It's not surprising then that it can be used to describe the universe.

If you say there is no God, then life is just a coincidence,

It may be 'just coincidence', it may be inevitable. There's no way (at present) to ascertain which.

and so is your brain, how can you then trust your brain, how can you trust your conclusions and judgement?

I don't. At least, not fully.

I've learnt to trust my brain through dint of repetition and intersubjective agreement. All my conclusions/judgements, except those involving labels/names and escoteric claims, are tentative. They are subject to revision should better or confounding evidence come along.

However, a chair is a chair. A rock is a rock. 1+1=2. And the available evidence supports life being at least 3.7 billion years old and having undergone constant evolution since then.

If you say we can trust our minds, that's the effect, what caused that? We trust ourselves because we were created, if we were not, why do people trust each other when everything is just random and nothing has any meaning?

Who said everything is just random? Evolution doesn't make any claims about the randomness (or otherwise) of the universe. Or of life.

Just because there's no externally defined meaning, doesn't mean that meaning doesn't exist.

If you can trust your thoughts, then it is because your brain was designed.

Evidence is needed to support this conclusion.

It is the reason why we trust our computers for example. Would you trust a computer if it was not designed?

Faulty comparison. All instances we have of computers are known to be designed. No instances we have of life are known to be designed. But all instanced we have of life are known to have evolved.

How can our bodies be complex if no one designed them?

How can our bodies be so poorly constructed if something designed them?

If there is no creator, how can there be life from no life?

Abiogenesis isn't a solved question, but there are several plausible pathways from non-life to life. The general outline is that under some environmental conditions basic chemicals are known to combine into amino acids. These interact, and in their interactions they can spontaneously combine into more complex chains. These chains form novel and complex shapes capable of self replication, and these have been show to subsequently combine into basic encapsulated "cells" (for lack of a better word).

Evolution (if you say there is no God) never made any sense in the first place. It's bunch of non-sense, because if we say we were not created, then everything is just random and so are our brains, so how can we trust them for science?

People are generally down on things they aren't up on. What's your level of education when talking about evolution?

Also, if you want to express your argument better, I suggest looking up Alvin Plantinga's 'Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism'.

Law of Biogenesis says that in nature, life comes from previously existing life of its own kind. Every single science experiment ever done in Biology proves this to be true.

The 'Law of Biogenesis' isn't a thing. It's an invention of creationists, and/or a retelling of Pasteur's refutation of spontaneous generation. There's no law in biology that states that life cannot come from simpler, non-living prebiotic molecules.
 
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BeyondET

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Faulty comparison. All instances we have of computers are known to be designed. No instances we have of life are known to be designed. But all instanced we have of life are known to have evolved.
This eye ball was designed. Best optics on the planet, the mantis shrimp.

1000000147.jpg
 
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Gene2memE

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This eye ball was designed. Best optics on the planet, the mantis shrimp.

It's a remarkable eye. Can you support your contention that it was designed? How would you show that?

How would you differentiate it from an object that wasn't designed?
 
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BeyondET

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It's a remarkable eye. Can you support your contention that it was designed? How would you show that?

How would you differentiate it from an object that wasn't designed?
it's one of a kind, humans are studying it trying to figure out the complexity of it. Possibly creating something better than blue ray.

The amount of bio technology that can be learned from it is huge.
 
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