Challenge: Explain the fossil record without evolution

Doveaman · Jan 21, 2016

The Barbarian said:
That would be more honest than trying to reconfigure the facts to fit your beliefs.

Since our beliefs are based on historical facts, then the observed facts must fit our beliefs.

We cannot change history.

The Barbarian · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said: ↑

How about I just admit I am going to go with my beliefs, and facts can take a hike?

Barbarian observes:
That would be more honest than trying to reconfigure the facts to fit your beliefs. You ever heard of Kurt Wise?

That's what he does, and he seems a lot happier than the guys at "Answers in Genesis."

And he gets a lot more respect.

Doveaman said:
Since our beliefs are based on historical facts, then the observed facts must fit our beliefs.

Depends on what your belief are, and what "historical facts" you've observed, I suppose.

We cannot change history.

Tell that to "Answers in Genesis."

The Barbarian · Jan 21, 2016

Doveaman said:
It is impossible to explain the fossil record using natural science (which includes evolution) if the animals did not die by natural causes.

Magic is indeed beyond nature. But since we know that God does almost everything by natural means in this world, we don't have to consider magic in our investigations.

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

-57 said:
I never said they did....learn the model. The lake was leaking and formed the meanders in the somewhat plastic flood deposits.

Plastic flood deposits would not form vertical walls. A flow rate needed to cut through that much sediment would be very high, and would not form meanders.

Later the entire lake drained following the already existing meanders.

A flow rate that high would cut through the meanders.

The Barbarian · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
If I stopped "reconfiguring the facts to fit my beliefs", I would eventually become an atheist ... wouldn't I?

Only if you assume that the facts support atheism. You've opened a little window into the thinking of creationists.

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
Unless they were created when the waters abated along a preset path.

The sediments making up the walls of the Grand Canyon were said to have come from Noah's Flood. There was no preset path.

fargonic · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
How about I just admit I am going to go with my beliefs, and facts can take a hike?

Utterly and perfectly honest.

But in a very real sense one takes themselves out of the game at that point. When we go with "God Did This" we effectively eliminate any ability to explain anything. We can learn nothing from this. We are not God, all we know is that whatever we see might simply be God bending and twisting all natural laws completely to His bidding.

He can certainly do that.

Now, imagine if you were a parent and you were raising an infant. You decide occasionally to remove all the lightbulbs in the house and suddenly the light switches don't function to turn lights on. You show the child that flipping the switch doesn't do anything. Then, when the child isn't looking, you re-affix all the light bulbs and then show the child how every time you flip the switch the lights come on.

Again, the child looks the other way, you loosen the bulbs, and ask the child what will happen if he or she flips the switch.

If the child has learned that the switch DOES work the lights then the child will be wrong, but if the child assumes only YOU flipping the switch will sometimes turn on lights the child will learn nothing about the linkage between switch and lightbulb.

I have a difficult time accepting a God who changes the laws of nature on the fly to suit some inscrutable need. And besides, what possible "need" could God have that He would "need" to ever change a law of nature?

It makes God more confusing and arbitrary.

The Barbarian · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
Your wafers must be green, instead of white ... eh?

Hitler wondered about that. He actually had some seized at the moment of consecration, just to see for himself. But even some Catholics don't know what comprises a satisfactory "wafer."

Or do you even take the Eucharist?

It's an old Christian practice. We think it's a good thing. You seem to be offended by it. Do you understand that we don't despise non-Christians?

lasthero · Jan 21, 2016

fargonic said:
Utterly and perfectly honest.

But in a very real sense one takes themselves out of the game at that point. When we go with "God Did This" we effectively eliminate any ability to explain anything. We can learn nothing from this. We are not God, all we know is that whatever we see might simply be God bending and twisting all natural laws completely to His bidding.

He can certainly do that.

Now, imagine if you were a parent and you were raising an infant. You decide occasionally to remove all the lightbulbs in the house and suddenly the light switches don't function to turn lights on. You show the child that flipping the switch doesn't do anything. Then, when the child isn't looking, you re-affix all the light bulbs and then show the child how every time you flip the switch the lights come on.

Again, the child looks the other way, you loosen the bulbs, and ask the child what will happen if he or she flips the switch.

If the child has learned that the switch DOES work the lights then the child will be wrong, but if the child assumes only YOU flipping the switch will sometimes turn on lights the child will learn nothing about the linkage between switch and lightbulb.

I have a difficult time accepting a God who changes the laws of nature on the fly to suit some inscrutable need. And besides, what possible "need" could God have that He would "need" to ever change a law of nature?

It makes God more confusing and arbitrary.

I don't know if there's a God or not, but if he does exist, I would hope that he wouldn't be so petty as to get mad at me for using the brain he gave me to come up with some logical conclusions about the planet he put me on.

Michael · Jan 21, 2016

lasthero said:
I don't know if there's a God or not, but if he does exist, I would hope that he wouldn't be so petty as to get mad at me for using the brain he gave me to come up with some logical conclusions about the planet he put me on.

fargonic · Jan 21, 2016

lasthero said:
I don't know if there's a God or not, but if he does exist, I would hope that he wouldn't be so petty as to get mad at me for using the brain he gave me to come up with some logical conclusions about the planet he put me on.

That's my general hope as well.

That's why I dislike the various concepts put forth on here like "embedded age" in which God literally embeds billions of years of history into a "newly formed" rock. I understand why someone would want to go with that. It isn't "lying" because God can do whatever He wants and He could, presumably, "embed" literal age into something without it going through actual time.

But in the end what it means is we have something that isn't exactly what we think it is and that is due solely from God's actions. If we literally think the rock has been around for millions of literal actual real years and indeed it hasn't but just "is" millions of years old by fiat of God, then I fear we learn nothing and in fact wind up less informed.

AV1611VET · Jan 21, 2016

Loudmouth said:
The sediments making up the walls of the Grand Canyon were said to have come from Noah's Flood.

I don't believe that.

I believe the Grand Canyon opened up when God broke Eden (Pangaea) up into five continents.

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
I don't believe that.

That is what the creationists are saying. Your argument is with them, not me.

I believe the Grand Canyon opened up when God broke Eden (Pangaea) up into five continents.

Such a process would not produce incised meanders, so your claims are equally falsified.

AV1611VET · Jan 21, 2016

Loudmouth said:
Such a process would not produce incised meanders, so your claims are equally falsified.

No kidding!?

Where did I just say these meandering rivers came from?

The flood waters receding along a preset course, or the breakup of Eden?

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
No kidding!?

Where did I just say these meandering rivers came from?

From Pangea breaking up.

AV1611VET · Jan 21, 2016

Loudmouth said:
From Pangea breaking up.

Ah ... I see now.

You're about to say I think the Colorado River is a "meandering stream," aren't you?

Pretty sneaky!

I think you know what I mean by "meandering streams" ... don't you?

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
Ah ... I see now.

You're about to say I think the Colorado River is a "meandering stream," aren't you?

It is what you said.

"I believe the Grand Canyon opened up when God broke Eden (Pangaea) up into five continents."

The Grand Canyon includes the meanders that were shown previously.

AV1611VET · Jan 21, 2016

Loudmouth said:
It is what you said.

"I believe the Grand Canyon opened up when God broke Eden (Pangaea) up into five continents."

The Grand Canyon includes the meanders that were shown previously.

I'm glad I caught that when I did!

You sneaky thing, you!

Loudmouth · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
I'm glad I caught that when I did!

You sneaky thing, you!

You still haven't shown how I have misinterpreted anything.

fargonic · Jan 21, 2016

AV1611VET said:
Ah ... I see now.

You're about to say I think the Colorado River is a "meandering stream," aren't you?

Pretty sneaky!

I think you know what I mean by "meandering streams" ... don't you?

This is a MEANDER BEND in the Colorado River. It is pretty much the definition of a meandering stream.

Challenge: Explain the fossil record without evolution

Re-Created, Not Evolved.

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