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Cessationism - Part 16

Discussion in 'Pentecostal & Assemblies of God' started by Saint Steven, Jul 14, 2018.

  1. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Here again is the sixth and final point the Cessationists claim prove that
    the gift of tongues have already ceased. The whole list is found on post 2.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    6) Current observation confirms that the miracle of tongues has ceased. If the gift were still available today, there would be no need for missionaries to attend language school. Missionaries would be able to travel to any country and speak any language fluently, just as the apostles were able to speak in Acts 2. As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2). And we see that as the era of the apostles drew to a close, healing, like tongues, became less frequent. The Apostle Paul, who raised Eutychus from the dead (Acts 20:9-12), did not heal Epaphroditus (Philippians 2:25-27), Trophimus (2 Timothy 4:20), Timothy (1 Timothy 5:23), or even himself (2 Corinthians 12:7-9). The reasons for Paul’s “failures
    to heal” are 1) the gift was never intended to make every Christian well, but to authenticate apostleship; and 2) the authority of the apostles had been sufficiently proved, making further miracles unnecessary.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    It will require more than one post to address this mess. Let's work through it one point at a time.

    Here's the next one.
    "As for the miracle gift of healing, we see in Scripture that healing
    was associated with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles (Luke 9:1-2)."

    How would you answer the Cessationists?

    James 5:14-15
    Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church
    to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.
    15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well;
    the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven.

    Hmm... ?????
    Are the elders of the church the Apostles? (nope)
    Does that mean this scripture is no longer valid? (nope)

    James goes on to say this.

    James 5:17
    Elijah was a human being, even as we are.
    He prayed earnestly that it would not rain,
    and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years.
    18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain,
    and the earth produced its crops.

    Was he saying that there was something special about Elijah
    that enabled him to do these things? No, he says that,
    "Elijah was a human being, even as we are." - vs 17

    What did Jesus say about this?

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me
    will do the works I have been doing,
    and they will do even greater things than these,
    because I am going to the Father.

    What was that? If you are an Apostle you will do "greater things"? (nope)
    Jesus says, "whoever believes in me..."

    Jesus says we will be doing the works he did and even greater things.

    What do the Cessationists say?
    "... we see in Scripture that healing was associated
    with the ministry of Jesus and the apostles..."

    Is that a fact? (nope)

    Mark 16:17-18
    And these signs will accompany those who believe:
    In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
    18 they will pick up snakes with their hands;
    and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;
    they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

    Just to be clear, I'm not recommending snake handling, or drinking deadly poison. lol
     
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  2. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    I heared of these chures which had thier pastor dead from handling snakes , does that mean that the pastor did not believe in Christ ?
     
  3. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    That's a good question.

    The NIV translation has this note between verses 8 and 9 of Mark chapter 16.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    The earliest manuscripts and some other ancient witnesses do not have verses 9–20.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    What this means is that these verses were added at a date later than the oldest and most original manuscripts. These oldest and most original manuscripts were not available at the time of the King James Version translation. So, these verses ended up in the NT canon of scriptures.

    Furthermore, snake handling and drinking deadly poison is not being presented here as a ritualistic practice for the church. What this means is that some believers will face life-threatening situations and be protected by the Lord. A deadly snake will attack and the Lord will enable the believer to pick it up without personal harm. Or someone may try to murder a believer with a poison but they survive. Both seen as miraculous interventions. I have heard testimony of attempted poisonings of pastors. They survived, which is a fulfillment of this scripture.

    These are my opinions on the subject. I hope that helps.

    Here's a NT example of this.

    Acts 28:2-6
    The islanders showed us unusual kindness.
    They built a fire and welcomed us all because it was raining and cold.
    3 Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper,
    driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand.
    4 When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other,
    “This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea,
    the goddess Justice has not allowed him to live.”
    5 But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects.
    6 The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead;
    but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him,
    they changed their minds and said he was a god.
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
  4. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    So we can't say that person is not a believer if he does not speak in tongues , snake handle or survive deadly poison . These are just gifts from God at appointed times to protect us or serve other purpose and we can't force God to give us such gifts on our demand when we want them .
     
  5. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I agree.
    Supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit follow salvation.
    And not every believer operates in the gifts, I would say, by their own choice.
    There are gifts (manifestations) for the whole church. Some choose not identify or open their gifts. Which is unfortunate in my opinion. But not a salvation issue.

    This multi-part series is about the erroneous doctrinal stronghold that has prevented many from receiving their gifts. We've been robbed!

    I am doing everything I can to be a part of the solution. Which for me means presenting a strong biblical position against such heresies.
     
  6. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    With regards to things like snake handling, I wouldn't advise it. When we see certain preachers handle snakes in front of their congregation, I'd consider this rather foolish regardless of whether or not they're able to survive it or not. What's the purpose? To demonstrate their faith? You do that by setting the example by the way you live, not by doing some magic trick. The one thing that the apostles did is to bring back the dead, something that I don't believe exists today although some men do have the gift of healing.
     
  7. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    So the gift of rising people from death ceased ? People would lay thier sick and dead on road so Paul's shadow could pass by them because they had such faith that he was able to help them .
     
  8. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I agree for the most part. But about raising the dead, please consider these scriptures.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Matthew 10:8
    Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,
    drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
    and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Jesus gave us a list in Matthew 10:8 which includes raising the dead.
    And promised that those who believe would do greater things than he had been doing.
    I think we sell ourselves short to believe that God will not raise the dead today.
     
  9. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Why I'm not able to bend spoon with one finger sounds easier than raising ppl from dead . How do i gain more faith to do it . Some demonic magicians can do that with power of Satan why I can't .
     
  10. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Only God can raise the dead.
    If he tells you do it, then you have permission. And not until.
    It's not something we can do by our own free will.
     
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  11. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    That was Paul and the gift was one of the apostolic gifts I believe. Although you have people out there calling themselves apostles, I believe that the apostles were a select group of men who at that time were necessary and sometimes required supernatural gifts to prove to men they had special gifts from God. I don't trust anyone today who claims to be an apostle. As pointed out, men through the spirit of Satan can appear to raise the dead, but it's only some kind of a trick. Yes, men have "come back to life" who were physically dead (dead according to doctors) but that is God doing the work, not the work of some man, (although as men we can pray for it and I do believe that some have the gift of prayer).
     
  12. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    Should church pray over every dead to try to bring him back from the dead and if not then it just was not God's will ?

    I agree if it was up to us to rise people from dead then nobody would be dying and Christians could be immortal raising ourselves back from the dead endlessly ...
     
  13. 2tim_215

    2tim_215 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    "Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,
    drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give."
    That was the 12 He was speaking to.
     
  14. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Acts 5:15
    As a result, people brought the sick into the streets and laid them on beds and mats
    so that at least Peter’s shadow might fall on some of them as he passed by.
     
  15. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    What about this one. Who is he speaking to?

    John 14:12
    Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing,
    and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
     
  16. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    Again, only God can raise the dead.
    He'll give you permission when he wants your help.
     
  17. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    How can I know if he gave me permission or not ? Would he speak to me in dream or something like speak to me through Holy Spirit ?
    Have you ever witnessed somebody raised from dead ?

    You see if we don't know if he gave permission or not then every time we pray for somebody who died to bring him/her back to life we can be praying against God's will , but if we never pray then nobody will rise from dead .
     
  18. yeshuaslavejeff

    yeshuaslavejeff simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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    In china and in africa, in the groups of Ekklesia immersed in Jesus' Name born again followers of Jesus DOing what the Father in heaven says to DO and speaking what the Father in heaven says to speak,

    they pray for the dead at times, and at times the dead are restored to life (after a week on the slab in the morgue, or in the hospital ) .
    They may pray for days without stopping,
    or in seconds may simply speak "arise" ....
    or the dead may not arise, and they stop praying as God gives them peace leaving or arranging for the dead to be buried.

    They may or may not know when it will happen.
     
  19. Saint Steven

    Saint Steven You can call me Steve Supporter

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    I think if God needs you to raise someone from the dead he will be very clear with you.
    I have not witnessed such a thing. I think I have heard of it happening.
    I believe it could happen. If God asked me to pray for someone, I would do it.
    But I wouldn't run around the morgue praying for everyone thinking I could do it of my own free will.
     
  20. Chinchilla

    Chinchilla Well-Known Member

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    You know I heared of churches which pray after every dead and then if he does not rise they blame themselves for lack of faith just like they blame themselves for not being able to heal wound / restore somebody's arm or leg .
     
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