Wow you guys really got after it. I guess I opened up a can of worms.
I have many comments to make to the post made but I will have to deal with them as I can. Its hard keeping up when you have 4 different threads on different subjects going all at once. Snup I will look over what you prensented and comment on it later. By the way how about that prophecy about me. You had any luck in your request to God to reveal something to me that is soon to take place so that if it does happen then I can proclaim it on here?
I must start with this post.
1 Cor 13:9 says we only "know in part" and 13:12 says we "see through a glass darkly". So your theory does not work.
Each of us can be hearing the Holy Spirit, however our hearing is not all the same. In each of our own imperfections, we hear only a little bit. Even you.
This one cracked me up.
Perhaps you don't see the humor in it. Correct me if I am wrong but it sounds like you are saying that people that are being guided by the holy spirit cant hear to well. Some of them here parts of what he is trying to say and others hear something else. This reminds of the commericals on TV about Cell Phones. Wife asks her husband to bring something home but because of the static he brings something different home than what she asked for. Thank you for such a good laugh.
But seriously when they in the 1st century spoke these parts of revealation that was revealed to them it wasnt fuzzy they did not get part of the message given to them they got the whole part not part of the part. Once again let us revisit 1 cor 13.
First off 1Cor 12,13.14 go together. In chapter 12 Paul talks about the different gifts then ends saying he is going to show them a more excelent way. In chapter 13 Paul starts talking about love. The Corith church was lacking greatly in love and Paul basical tell them they better get ready to start relieing on love because the gifts are not always going to be there. Now I think that most people agree that verses 8-10 teach that the miracles will cease. The place where the view changes is when they will cease. People look at verse 10 and see the word perfect and think well there is only one thing that is perfect that is Jesus so this is talking about Jesus second coming. Let us take another look at the context here.
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they
will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether
there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
Isnt this true love never fails. But then you see that prophecies, tongues, and knowledge (not head knowledge but spirtual knowledge provided directly from the HS. SEE 1Cor 12:8) They will fail and they will cease.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
They received what we now have in the word of God in parts. They we receive new reavlation creating yet another part of the whole word of God.
Lets look at few definations of the in part.
"A part, portion, division, of a whole" (persh)
"Part, in contrast to the whole (BAG)
"One of the constituent parts of a whole" Thayer
So verse 9 is talking about these parts of miraculous knowledge that they were receiving.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which
is in part will be done away.
Now the word perfect her simply means that of complete or mature. Lets take a look at some definitions
"Completeness" (Thayer)
"Complete, entire, as opposed to what is partial or limited" (Bagster)
"Complete in all parts" (Berry)
"Complete contrasted to in part or incomplete" (Young)
So you can see very clearly that the parts spoken of in verse 9 are all put together and made complete or made whole this is what verse 10 is talking about. It the fully revealed word. Verse 9 and verse 10 are connected to one another and are not talking about 2 entirely different things that just would'nt make sense. Let me give you some examples to make this even clearer. If I have all the pieces of an apple and I put them together I get the whole apple or the complete apple. Same thing with a pie. I put all the pieces together I get the whole pie. Now I think you would agree that if I put all the pieces of an apple together that I dont get an orange not I get an apple. It seems very very clear that the perfect/complete in verse 10 is all those parts put together in verse 9.
Jesus nor his second comming can be found anywhere in these verses. The word perfect here is NEVER used to describe Jesus 2nd comming.
verses 11-12 basical restates verse 9 and 10 by showing that while they are still getting these parts they are imature but when the parts all come together then the church becomes mature. I will finish up this post with the folloing article on the last verses of 1cort 13. AN ILLUSTRATION FROM PAUL'S LIFE
In 1 Cor. 13:11 Paul utilizes an analogy (the only illustration in this context) to emphasize the contrast between infancy and maturity. Sometimes proponents of current charismatic activity claim that having spiritual gifts is a mark of Christian maturity. Nothing could be further from the truth. The church in Corinth had more in the way of spiritual gifts than any other as far as we have record. Yet, it was a church plagued by factions, lawsuits, fornication, skepticism and drunkenness at the Lord's table! Paul said they were not spiritual but carnal (1 Cor. 3:1) and told them to quit being "children in mind" (1 Cor. 14:20), a condition aggravated by their inordinate use of tongue-speaking!
Paul's illustration is to point out that just as he left behind childish ways when he grew from infancy to manhood, so also the infant church would discard spiritual gifts when revelation is complete. When Jesus "gave gifts unto men" (Eph. 4:8), it was so that part by part the Word might be correctly set forth through the apostles and other divinely aided teachers (Eph. 4:11) to build up the body (Eph. 4:12) until it arrived at "the unity" (wholeness) of "the faith" (the New Testament content) and the wholeness of the (full) "knowledge" ([@epignosis]) of the Son of God, "unto a full-grown ([@teleios]) man" (Eph. 4:13). Thus, when the revelation became "perfect" ([@teleios] -- 1 Cor. 13:10), the body of Christ also became "full-grown" because Christians were protected from doctrinal "error" (Eph. 4:14) and able to speak "the truth" (Eph. 4:15). When the full revelation was given, the church could then "grow up" (Eph. 4:15) and reach the status of "man" (Eph. 4:13). Being "no longer children" (Eph. 4:14), the body of Christ put away "the things of the child" (literal reading of 1 Cor. 13:11). The formerly infant church discarded the spiritual gifts.
MIRROR DARKLY -- FACE TO FACE
Many have misunderstood the meaning of "that which is perfect" because of misunderstanding the "mirror darkly" -- "face to face" contrast of 1 Cor. 13:12. It is not a new illustration,<19> but rather Paul's explanation (in figurative terms) of the illustration he just gave (notice the "for"). So many see the afterlife in this verse, but it is not here. The "then" (when we shall see face to face) is not "at the final end" or "evidently in heaven," as two brethren (and others) have suggested.<20>
To see in a mirror was a figurative expression which meant "to receive revelation from God." "Mirror" in Hebrew is the same word as "vision." In contrast to other prophets who had to depend on the "dark speeches" of a vision or a dream, Moses experienced a mouth-to-mouth (clear) understanding of God's will (Num. 12:6-8). The rabbis of the Midrash said the prophets saw God in clouded mirrors whereas Moses saw him in a clear one. So also Paul says that while revelation is still incomplete "we see in a mirror darkly." The mirror is clouded or obscure -- literally, "in an enigma." But later, when all spiritual knowledge and prophecy were to be finished, the image would be "face to face." It is not necessarily the mirror that is done away but the obscurity.
"Face to face" expresses the clarity of our understanding. Jacob (Gen. 32:20), Moses (Exo. 33:11; Deut. 34:10) and the Israelites (Deut. 5:4-5) were said to have encountered God "face to face." It was not meant literally, for God said, "My face shall not be seen" (Deut. 34:23). So also Paul (1 Cor. 13:12) refers not to seeing the face of God or Jesus in heaven (1 John 3:2; Rev. 22:4), but rather to the here and now as "with unveiled face" we behold "as in a mirror the glory of the Lord" (2 Cor. 3:18). God has revealed himself "to give the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor. 4:6). And we "receive with meekness the implanted word" (James 1:21) when we look into the "mirror" (James 1:23) of "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25). That mirror reflects "face to face" now that God's Word is finished.
KNOW FULLY AS FULLY KNOWN
The second part of 1 Cor. 13:12 is also a commonly misunderstood statement. Here again, some think "then" points to eternity as the time when spiritual gifts will no longer be needed. Others who deny current charismatic activity still see heaven in the statement because they conceive of this as "merely another illustration" that Paul is using.<21> This supposed contrast between earth and heaven has been promoted in response to the Greek construction and to translations later than the King James which insert a word such as "fully" into the statement. So, for example, the American Standard Version reads: "Now I know in part; but then shall I know fully even as also I was fully known." The argument is that this must point to heaven since we can never know fully in this life.
The argument is wrong, but the ASV rendering is valid. Paul used two different Greek words for knowing. The reference to the present uses the ordinary word [@ginosko], whereas the "I shall know" uses the intensified word [@epiginosko]. This latter word means to know "thoroughly ... accurately ... well" or "exactly" or "completely."<22> The word speaks of thorough knowledge but does not imply flawless understanding. There is no warrant to picture here a scene when this world shall have drawn to a close and the faithful are all in heaven receiving full and satisfying answers to all perplexing questions.<23>
Let us notice how the word [@epiginosko] is used in the New Testament for the here and now: We can "know fully" false prophets (Matt. 7:16), the certainty of Bible teaching (Luke 1:3-4), the ordinance of God (Rom. 1:32), the things Paul wrote (1 Cor. 14:37), the grace of God (Col. 1:6), the truth (1 Tim. 4:3), and the way of righteousness (2 Pet. 2:21). And with the noun form of the word we are told that we can have a thorough knowledge of both God and Jesus (2 Pet. 1:2). All of these passages tell us that Christians are able to "know fully" right now in this life!
But someone might say that Paul seems to be saying, "I shall know perfectly as God knows me," or, "I shall recognize God as he knows me." These renderings, by Williams and Knox respectively, are unwarranted translations. Paul said nothing about knowing anything as well as God knew him, much less that he was going to know God that well. Such an idea was the Devil's lie to Eve (Gen. 3:5) but nowhere promised by God!
Paul made no allusion to some greater knowledge to be gained in heaven. He simply wrote in contrast to the era of spiritual gifts when revelation was still incomplete and he only knew "in part." Yet, he looked forward to the day (if he should live that long) when he would know all of God's revealed truth. He would then be able to know it "fully" or "well" just as Paul already was "fully known" or "well known" (same word, [@epiginosko]) by others (1 Cor. 13:12; 2 Cor. 1:14; 6:9). The claim that one cannot "know fully" in this life is without scriptural basis and out of harmony with the usage of that word in the New Testament.
FAITH, HOPE AND LOVE REMAIN
When Paul reaches his concluding statement in 1 Cor. 13:13, he draws a contrast between the temporary and the permanent as far as this life is concerned. Whereas spiritual gifts such as prophecies, tongues and knowledge would be done away (1 Cor. 13:8), inner Christian qualities such as faith, hope and love would "abide" (1 Cor. 13:13). Paul does not say how long they will remain. Something might "abide" ([@meno]) an hour (Matt. 26:38,40), a day (Acts 21:7), or perhaps two years (Acts 28:30) or many more. It might be just for a little while (Rev. 17:10) or until Christ returns (John 21:22-23). Paul was going to abide for some time (Phil. 1:25) but later "depart and be with Christ" (Phil. 1:23).
Paul does not say that faith, hope and love will all be eternal, and neither should we. The New English Bible presumes too much when it introduces the verse, "There are three things that last forever." Faith looks forward to fulfillment. It is "the assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen" (Heb. 11:11. While we live in this world, "we walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Cor. 5:7). Faith is a characteristic of this age. It is "unto the saving of the soul" (Heb. 10:39). Likewise, hope is limited to earthly existence. It involves steadfastness (Rom. 15:4), waiting (Gal. 5:5), expectation (Phil. 1:20), looking (Titus 2:13) and laying hold (Heb. 6:18) "unto the end" (Heb. 3:6; 6:11). But it will not exist in heaven because "hope that is seen is not hope" (Rom. 8:24). So now "we hope for that which we see not" (Rom. 8:25).
Since faith and hope have a "temporary character" and are "ascribed by Paul to this present era,"<24> there is no contrast here between earth and heaven. The contrast has to do with the temporary and the permanent during the Christian age. Spiritual gifts were to be abolished, whereas faith, hope and love continue on to the end. Finally, love alone of these three qualities goes on into eternity, for "God is love" (1 John 4:16) and "love never faileth" (1 Cor. 13:8). Nothing, including death, "shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Rom. 8:39).