Certainty Jesus Returns No Later than 2023

[Gnarwhal]

Nah. I'm sure the mods will see it eventually.

You'd be surprised how folks like Troy can slip through the cracks...

 

[dobson67]

Harold Camping "predicted" the Rapture using the same math that has been brought up...guess what? he was wrong....THREE TIMES!!

But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Then two men will be in the field; one will be taken and one left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one left. Therefore, stay awake, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming. But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. Therefore you also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.
Matthew 24:36-44 (ESV)

 

[faithfulforever]

Harold Camping predicted the return of Jesus based on the Nibiru planet. Funny.

Whereas we know Jesus is going to return at the end of the Tribulation, and the Tribulation begins immediately following the 3 events of Rev. 6.12 in 2010/11, 2013, 2014/15.

 

[eclipsenow]

Eclipsenow

The Scriptures Do Not Say That We Will Not Know

1 Thes 4;17- 5;4 Then We Which Are Alive And Remain Shall Be Caught Up To Gather With Them In The Clouds.--------- But Of The Times And Seasons, Brethern Ye Have No Need That I Write Unto You---- But You Brethern Are Not In Darkness That Day Should Overtake You As A Thief.

5 Ye Are All Of The Day Not Of The Night, Nor Of Darkness.

It Says Right Here That We Will Know The Time Of The Rapture
And Of The Second Coming

First He Says We Will Know The Years And The Season (3months)
Then It Says That The Day Will Not Over Take Us In The Darkness

People That Say God Does Not Want You To Know, Is Not Talking About The God I Know,
My God Wants Me Ready And Waiting For Him
But Most Of The Church Is Asleep.
Mat 25;1-13 Says The Whole Bride Is Asleep

What is your obsession with ye olde texte which deludeth thee? Try a modern version and you might have a chance of understanding what you're reading.

Date unknown!

We do not know when the Lord will return. Futurists make a vain attempt when they point to 1 Thessalonians 5:4
///4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.///

This always raises 2 questions for me.

1. WHAT GOOD IS KNOWING THE DATE?
Why is knowing the date of the Lord's return even important? What are we meant to DO? How does knowing a date off in the future some time help us? How is trying to calculate that date not a distraction from our core gospel purpose? It doesn't help. We live busy lives, and I think our devotional reading could be far better spent in Biblical Theology and Systematic Theology and Apologetics and prayer than wasting endless hours trying to pin down some obscure date.

Many, like Harold Camping, have had a stab at the date. And made a mockery of themselves and their Lord.

Knowing the date might even work against godliness with some. Some Christians might take it easy and flirt with a worldly lifestyle if they know it's 30 years or 60 years or 2049 years until the Lord returns. So they take it easy.

In contrast, I only read *warnings* against date guessing in the bible! Which brings us to the next question:

2. WHAT DOES 1 THESS 5:4 ACTUALLY ENCOURAGE US TO DO?

If one reads this in the context of Thessalonians 5 it's all about knowing a *person*, not knowing a *date*. It's about remaining Christian and staying 'in the light'. This is a remarkable phrase. Only God is in the light. But we are included in this light when we come into Christ's kingdom by trusting in Jesus who died to remove our sin and make us heirs of God.

Let's read it in context.

1 Thess 5:4
4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

I wish the futurists would read the whole chapter and not just isolate the one line that, at a superficial level, appears to itch their ears. It doesn't. If this were all about knowing a date it's a very strange way of talking about it. For example, how does someone "belong to" not knowing a date? "We do not belong to the night or to the darkness". Hang on... futurists want to say the fact that we "are not in darkness" is all about knowing a date. But how does one "belong to" not knowing something? That's just weird. In the context of the broader bible, it makes much more sense to see 'darkness' as the Kingdom of Darkness. Then the language makes sense. One can most certainly belong to the Kingdom of Darkness, just as one can 'belong to' the Kingdom of Light!

Also, instead of Paul urging the Thessalonians to check their End Times Tables and signs so they are ready for the date, he says live as children of the Kingdom of Light. Live as faithful Christians, and have *more* faith, hope, and love. We are to become *more* Christian each and every day, and remain in Jesus. Again, it's about knowing a person, not knowing a date. We are to remember that we are *not* going to suffer wrath whenever Christ returns like a thief. We are to live 'in the day' as Christians, not 'in the dark'.

There is also the matter of dead Christians in this passage! How can dead Christians stay awake and prepare themselves for the Lord's return?
///He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him///
Tell me, how much work can the dead put into preparing timetables to be ready for the Lord and guess the date (like Harold Camping)? Fortunatley they can't. They are spared all that silliness, and yet remain saved.

The point is obvious. 1 Thess 5 is not saying 'what we know' saves us, but 'who we know'. Do we know when the Lord will return? That's irrelevant! Are we people who trust in the Lord Jesus? There's no more important question!

It's all about the gospel!

Let us compare it to bus timetables. This passage is not telling us we have to know exactly when the bus will arrive, but rather that we need to carry our ticket on us all at all times precisely because we will NOT know when the bus is due. It's about living as faithful, hopeful, loving Christians, rather than argumentative Current Affairs experts busy pushing their own little theory about End Times timetables. I know which I'd rather be, and which will ultimately be more useful for the gospel!

3. HOW DO OTHER PARTS OF THE BIBLE USE NIGHT AND DAY, LIGHT AND DARK?
The use of light and dark is similar to the way the Apostle John uses it. It's about belong to God or not belonging to God. Obeying him or rebelling. It's often about knowing and obeying the gospel itself.

John 1:
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it....

9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God — 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

1 John:
5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 John 2...
9 Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

Belonging to light and darkness, night or day is NOT some awkward code-word for knowing the secret date of the Lord's return. Far from it, Jesus was clear that even HE did not know when he would return, let alone any of us!!! Which brings me to point 3.

4. READING 1 Thess 5:4 THIS WAY WOULD CONTRADICT OTHER IMPORTANT PASSAGES OF THE BIBLE.

There is a sense of the imminence and suddenness of the Lord's return in the rest of the New Testament that date-guessing and knowing in advance would contradict.

Matthew 24 says:
///36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away..... 42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.///
So how are we to stay ready? By continuing to trust in him and obey him! It's the same as 1 Thess 5:
///let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.///

THAT'S how we must 'be ready'. If we do not stay SAVED then...

///The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.///

This is heaven and hell stuff, not knowing a simple date!

Not only that, but guessing the date is bad because people mess it up! 2 Thessalonians 2:2 shows the heresy of full Preterism in action: they taught that the Lord had *already* returned.

Luke 12:40 You also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

Revelation 3:3 Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.

The irony is that futurists are the ones who obsess over and read Revelation the most, but miss this clear message:
Revelation 16:15
///15 “Look, I come like a thief! Blessed are those who stay awake and keep their clothes on, so that they may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.///
It's not about knowing a date but staying clothed! Being prepared! Being in the gospel, not out of it. Being Christian.

How sad it is that so many people spend so much time trying to nail Revelation to their timetables and chronologies when John says twice in that book that Jesus will come like a thief!

 

[Jipsah]

We know Jesus returns soon after Israel becomes a nation again because Matt. 24 says "the fig tree" representing Israel "when his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near" (v.32) pointing to the millennial kingdom when Jesus reigns on earth in person.

Sure. No less a prophet than Hal Lindsey told us so. And he even gave us the year to watch for - 1988.

And we know that the establishment of Israel is the key, because Jesus was all about the political reestablishment of the kingdom of Israel, and spoke of little else. Well, no. Our Lord never really addressed mundane politics at all, except maybe "render unto Caesar".

In order to determine when the 7-year Tribulation starts we need to observe specific events first

And have a lot of imagination, and disregard what our Lord said about not knowing the time of His return.

Go away, Troy. Your doctrine is rubbish.

 

[Jipsah]

Troy's back.

Yeah, and still doing his female impersonation.

 

[Jipsah]

Harold Camping predicted the return of Jesus based on the Nibiru planet. Funny.

You both seem to share a love of imaginative astronomy.

 

[faithfulforever]

Kingdom of Israel? The way it works is Israel will be the center of all nations from where Christ reigns in the 3rd Temple, and only those who overcometh get to reign with Christ during the 1000 years. Just because a person is a Jew or lives in Israel doesn't necessarily mean they are saved. They still must repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated (sorry Calvinists). So those who will be kings and priests are not Israel, but the ovecomers in Christ. Israel just becomes the location from where Chrsit reigns.

1988? 1988 is not viable for the return of Jesus because the 3rd Temple must be built first. Was the 3rd Temple built in 1988? Camping is wrong because obviously there is no Nibiru planet which was the centerpiece of all his predictions. Silly.

Why does God want us to know the date of His return? So that you ovecometh and may be first raptured before the Tribulation if you keep the word of His patience, and be included with the 5 wise virgins to reign over the nations for 1000 years.

Historicists are wrong because obviously the nations are still deceived. Rev. 20.3 says the nations won't be deceived in the 1000 years.

Overcomers can know when Jesus returns, but non-overcomers, false-Christians and heathens can't know. Only those who are watchful. Also you couldn't know prior to when Israel was a nation. And you can't know when the end of the world is which is a 1000 years after Jesus returns.

 

[doright]

Eclipsenow Please Show Me A warning Against Trying To Know The Date

 

[faithfulforever]

Send me a copy too.

 

[Gnarwhal]

Eclipsenow Please Show Me A warning Against Trying To Know The Date

Send me a copy too.

I'm guessing you ladies and gents (or should I say just gents?) disagree that Scriptures like Matthew 24.36, 24.42, 25.13; Acts 1.7; 1 Thessalonians 5 lend any weight to the conversation, eh?

 

[faithfulforever]

Excuse me. There is a lady present.

I'd still like a copy.

 

[doright]

The People Jesus Was Talking To Thought The World Was Flat And They Were In The Middle,and When It 12 O Clock There It Was 12 Every Where
They Had No Idea The World Was Round And It Was About 1850 Years Later When The Time Zones Were Set Up
If Jesus Had Tried To Tell Them He Would Have Taken About 1492 Years When We Found Out The World Was Round
But He Gave Us All Kinds Of Clues

The Ten Virgins Were Called At Midnghin , But The Woman Were Working In The Field It Was Day Time,

Now At Midnight In Israel It S Daytime In The Usa
The Two Main Places Of The Church

And We Now Know That There Are 24 Hours And 2 Days Going On At This Moment
That Is Why He Said Day And Hour Not Month And Year

 

[faithfulforever]

Never read what someone says when they capitalize the first letter in ever word. That's weird. I avoid weird places.

 

[WorshipMedic]

Will Jesus return within 75 years from when Israel became a nation (by 2023 at the latest)? Yes,

• because 75 years is within a lifetime (Ps. 90.10);
• because Abraham entered the promise land at 75 (Gen. 12.5);
• because "you know the summer is near" (Matt. 24.32) when the "fig tree...branch is tender" (v.32);
• Ezekiel's prophecy on his side for 390 days takes us to exactly May, 1948 when Israel became a nation again;
• thus, you "know that it is near, even at the doors" (v.33).

Can we narrow down the time of the Tribulation and when Jesus returns? Yes,

• because before the great and terrible day of the Lord (Joel 2.31, Rev. 6.12) there is a great earthquake (2010/11), unique solar eclipse (Nov. 3, 2013) and unique lunar eclipse (2014/15);
• thus, the Tribulation can start no sooner than 2015.

How do we get even more exact for the time the Tribulation starts?

• Each year there are from Feast of Trumpets 2,520 (Dan. 9.27, 12.7, Rev. 12.6) days to Tisha B'Av or 2,550 (Dan. 12.11) days to Day of Atonement;
• there are 2300 days (Dan. 8.14) from the day before Passover to Tisha B'Av from 2016 to 2022 and for 2017 to 2023;
• thus, we know the Tribulation starts on Feast of Trumpets either Sept. 14, 2015 or Oct. 3, 2016.

Which year does the Tribulation start?

• There are seven sets of seven from June 7, 1967 (double fulfilment of Dan. 9.25) when Israel became a nation to the Day of Atonement June 23, 2015 (total of 17,640 days);
• when Jesus returns, He judges the nations for 30 days from the 1260th to the 1290th day;
• 2015 is a Jubilee year once every 50 years and it is a Sabbath year once every seven years (these years are confirmed going back to the start of the first Jubilee which was 3986 BC when Adam was 18 years old;
• thus, the Tribulation must start on Feast of Trumpets Sept. 14 in 2015.

What day does Jesus step down on the mount of olives?

• Jesus would step down on the 2,520th day which would be Aug. 7, 2022.

No man knows the day nor the hour when God shall make his appearance

 

[doright]

Some Thing Else The Jews Day Starts And Ends At Sundown

The Rest Of The World Starts And Ends At Midnight So If He Comes At Midnight At Midnight Which Day Is It?

 

[faithfulforever]

No man knows the day nor the hour when God shall make his appearance

No man knows when God the Son returns until Israel is a nation again. Hence, we read you can "know" when He returns even the day "right at the door" (Matt. 24.33) once the "branch is tender" (v.32).

Praise the Lord! Amen.

 

[Jipsah]

Now At Midnight In Israel It S Daytime In The Usa
The Two Main Places Of The Church

That Is Why He Said Day And Hour Not Month And Year

That's an interesting notion. Weird and wrong-headed, but interesting.

 

[Jipsah]

Excuse me. There is a lady present.

Zat mean you're wearing the wig now?

 

[Jipsah]

No man knows when God the Son returns until Israel is a nation again.

Jude 3:17, right? The part that was left out of everyone's Bible but yours?