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Cause & Effect?

david_x

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Some people are really good at hiding their guilt, and some people don't feel guilty at all for sinning. So how would you know whether or not those types of people were lying to you about feeling sorry for sinning?

Again, who can hide from God? Even if someone is not feeling guilty God can tell people for their sake.
(Like the story of Nathan and David.)

So you were honestly admitting that you yourself are a homosexual?

Yes.

I understood what you were saying completely. You were trying to say that the Nicene Creed is understood by the Church to be the determining factor in whether or not someone is actually a Christian. I then asked you for proof that that was true, and you replied with "it's the definition." When I asked you what dictionary that definition was from, you replied with "..." So tell me, what exactly am I not understanding?

It can not be found it some dictionary, i'm sure. It just something that the three branches of the Church have all agreed upon. It brings us unity and a standard.
 
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HannahBanana

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Again, who can hide from God? Even if someone is not feeling guilty God can tell people for their sake.
(Like the story of Nathan and David.)
So you think that God would tell you whether or not all of the congregants in your church were truly repentant? Why would God choose you, of all people, to tell that to?

Then I hope you don't go to church, since you don't think that homosexuals should be allowed to go to church.

It can not be found it some dictionary, i'm sure. It just something that the three branches of the Church have all agreed upon. It brings us unity and a standard.
I guess I'll just have to trust you on that.
 
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david_x

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So you think that God would tell you whether or not all of the congregants in your church were truly repentant? Why would God choose you, of all people, to tell that to?

I'm being general, he would tell someone. Probably someone better at that kind of thing then me.


Then I hope you don't go to church, since you don't think that homosexuals should be allowed to go to church.

I'm sorry about the things I've done and am trying to become more like Christ. LGBT has a connotation that they are still active in their sexual misconduct that is what should be excluded.


I guess I'll just have to trust you on that.

Um, wikipedia and many resources on the Creed should back that up.
 
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HannahBanana

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I'm being general, he would tell someone. Probably someone better at that kind of thing then me.
Okay.

I'm sorry about the things I've done and am trying to become more like Christ. LGBT has a connotation that they are still active in their sexual misconduct that is what should be excluded.
"LGBT" is short for "lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transsexual," and two out of four of those words (those two being "lesbian" and "gay") are synonyms for "homosexual." So, since "gay", "lesbian", and "homosexual" mean the exact same thing, how exactly can "gay" and "lesbian" have different connotations than "homosexual"?

Um, wikipedia and many resources on the Creed should back that up.
Sorry, I wasn't meaning that in a harsh way. I honestly am going to take your word for it, which means that I believe what you're saying (in terms of the Nicene Creed, that is).
 
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david_x

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"LGBT" is short for "lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transsexual," and two out of four of those words (those two being "lesbian" and "gay") are synonyms for "homosexual." So, since "gay", "lesbian", and "homosexual" mean the exact same thing, how exactly can "gay" and "lesbian" have different connotations than "homosexual"?

No, I meant LGBT as a term by itself. One doesn't generally use the term LGBT unless they imply unrepentant and "proud" people who are Lesbian, Gay, Bi, or tran sexual.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning that in a harsh way. I honestly am going to take your word for it, which means that I believe what you're saying (in terms of the Nicene Creed, that is).

I know, I just didn't want you to have to take me at my word. "Believe and Check"(that's not what the actual quote is but I can't remember it right now. :*()
 
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JGG

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For one thing those are conservatives for the most part. Have you ever even known someone personally or are you just being prejudice?

Those are mostly conservatives for the most part? Uh-huh...and? Are they Christian?

But, am I prejudiced?

When I was about 17, my best friend (whom I had known since around birth), was outed as being gay by our pastor. He was ordered to leave our church because he was "evil," and a church was no place for evil people. His parents (who were also serious members of said church) kicked him out of their house. He disappeared for a couple of weeks, until he was found in Edmonton (closest major town) where he had jumped off of the top of an 8-storey parking garage.

Our church celebrated the death of an evil person, rather than mourn a friend, or family member. Parishoners danced on his grave, including our pastor, and his father. That I wouldn't dance on his grave, and left the funeral/party before it was finished was remembered by the church as a sign of weakness.

Skip ahead about 4 years and a bit, I had fallen in love with my high-school sweetheart and announced that I was getting married, and moving to Calgary for school. Parishoners got suspicious (as apparently they will), and started spying on me. Not too long later, my fiancee was outed as being Jewish (yeah I was aware of that, apparently I was supposed to care about such things). I was told they actually remembered Scott's funeral, and that I was weak in front of evil, and they would kick me out. They actually, literally told me to choose between the church, and my fiancee--Jesus or Satan. I guess Satan won out in a pretty easy battle. Those still within the church were told not to associate with me, and my mother was soon kicked out as well.

Then the bank foreclosed on my mortgage on a house in Calgary, which was to quell our living costs through school, even though we hadn't even moved in yet. We lost more than $7000 because the guy who handled our mortgage went to my former church, and was no longer allowed to associate with me. Rather then allow it to sit as it is supposed to, he vindictively decided to foreclose on it. We sued the bank to get it back, but we didn't receive our money until after I had completed my bachelors which is when we needed it.

Then move on to our wedding. During the ceremony, my brother-n-law (at the time) called my wife a harlot, and a money-worshipping golddigger (which was ironic as at that moment, I was actually quite poor having lost all of my money in that house) because she was a Jew. During the reception, my drunken Grandfather called for a toast to "Jesus Christ who was brutally murdered at the hands of the Jews" as he lifted his glass to my (Jewish) father-in-law.

After my wife died some years ago, I received letters of congratulations. Now I don't have to get a divorce, and I can raise my son as a Christian. As if that's going to happen.

My sisters don't talk to me, and didn't even visit our mother before she died because we were no longer Christian. Although, I suppose I don't have any desire to talk to them either, I imagine my mother did.

Throw into the mix being punched in the face two years ago by a pro-life Christian who was outraged by my being a pro-choice atheist, and then the subsequent lies, and harrassment that went with that church. Throw in the frequent prosletyzer who screams at me in the subway.

Now this is just how I have been affected personally. I should also include that my neighbour growing up, who is a devoted Christian was convicted of murdering her husband about 3 years ago. An influencial man at my church, who was instrumental in getting me removed, was convicted of assault, and attempted murder of a Police Officer whom he thought was gay, and tried to stab him with a broken bottle (to be fair, he didn't know he was a police officer).

Then add the outspoken public persona of Christianity today.

Yeah, I imagine I'm a bit prejudiced. Honestly, I'm really see no reason to apologize for that at this point.
 
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david_x

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Those are mostly conservatives for the most part? Uh-huh...and? Are they Christian?

But, am I prejudiced?

When I was about 17, my best friend (whom I had known since around birth), was outed as being gay by our pastor. He was ordered to leave our church because he was "evil," and a church was no place for evil people. His parents (who were also serious members of said church) kicked him out of their house. He disappeared for a couple of weeks, until he was found in Edmonton (closest major town) where he had jumped off of the top of an 8-storey parking garage.

Our church celebrated the death of an evil person, rather than mourn a friend, or family member. Parishoners danced on his grave, including our pastor, and his father. That I wouldn't dance on his grave, and left the funeral/party before it was finished was remembered by the church as a sign of weakness.

Skip ahead about 4 years and a bit, I had fallen in love with my high-school sweetheart and announced that I was getting married, and moving to Calgary for school. Parishoners got suspicious (as apparently they will), and started spying on me. Not too long later, my fiancee was outed as being Jewish (yeah I was aware of that, apparently I was supposed to care about such things). I was told they actually remembered Scott's funeral, and that I was weak in front of evil, and they would kick me out. They actually, literally told me to choose between the church, and my fiancee--Jesus or Satan. I guess Satan won out in a pretty easy battle. Those still within the church were told not to associate with me, and my mother was soon kicked out as well.

Then the bank foreclosed on my mortgage on a house in Calgary, which was to quell our living costs through school, even though we hadn't even moved in yet. We lost more than $7000 because the guy who handled our mortgage went to my former church, and was no longer allowed to associate with me. Rather then allow it to sit as it is supposed to, he vindictively decided to foreclose on it. We sued the bank to get it back, but we didn't receive our money until after I had completed my bachelors which is when we needed it.

Then move on to our wedding. During the ceremony, my brother-n-law (at the time) called my wife a harlot, and a money-worshipping golddigger (which was ironic as at that moment, I was actually quite poor having lost all of my money in that house) because she was a Jew. During the reception, my drunken Grandfather called for a toast to "Jesus Christ who was brutally murdered at the hands of the Jews" as he lifted his glass to my (Jewish) father-in-law.

After my wife died some years ago, I received letters of congratulations. Now I don't have to get a divorce, and I can raise my son as a Christian. As if that's going to happen.

My sisters don't talk to me, and didn't even visit our mother before she died because we were no longer Christian. Although, I suppose I don't have any desire to talk to them either, I imagine my mother did.

Throw into the mix being punched in the face two years ago by a pro-life Christian who was outraged by my being a pro-choice atheist, and then the subsequent lies, and harrassment that went with that church. Throw in the frequent prosletyzer who screams at me in the subway.

Now this is just how I have been affected personally. I should also include that my neighbour growing up, who is a devoted Christian was convicted of murdering her husband about 3 years ago. An influencial man at my church, who was instrumental in getting me removed, was convicted of assault, and attempted murder of a Police Officer whom he thought was gay, and tried to stab him with a broken bottle (to be fair, he didn't know he was a police officer).

Then add the outspoken public persona of Christianity today.

Yeah, I imagine I'm a bit prejudiced. Honestly, I'm really see no reason to apologize for that at this point.

I can honestly say that this is one of the worst stories I have ever heard; I am so sorry this happened to you and the people you loved.

It is clear that the Church you attended gave you a bitter taste about Christians. If in is worth anything they will probably burn, where Scott and your wife still have a chance(this is a very heavily disputed fact but still possible). It is exactly those kinds of wicked people that drive so many away from the doors of Churches that simply want to provide and serve for people of the community and the world. (I can go into what made them wicked too, if you would like.)
 
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JGG

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It is clear that the Church you attended gave you a bitter taste about Christians.

Of course it did, but its not like Christianity is standing up to make itself look good (see my list above; see the OP). This church may have given me a bitter taste, but modern Christianity just offers me more vinegar.

If in is worth anything they will probably burn, where Scott and your wife still have a chance(this is a very heavily disputed fact but still possible).

Ummmm...what? No. According to Christian doctrine, Scott (gay), my wife (didn't believe in Christ), my mother (agnostic), even my father (adulterer) are all burning in hell as we speak. I'm headed there (agnostic), and so are my in-laws (don't believe in Christ), and my son (Jew). Honestly, no True Christian would actually dispute it.

It is exactly those kinds of wicked people that drive so many away from the doors of Churches that simply want to provide and serve for people of the community and the world. (I can go into what made them wicked too, if you would like.)

They don't drive them away, they attract them to their churches. Theirs are full.
 
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david_x

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Of course it did, but its not like Christianity is standing up to make itself look good (see my list above; see the OP). This church may have given me a bitter taste, but modern Christianity just offers me more vinegar.

I'm trying to stand up, i'm giving you some very honest answers to what has gone wrong with the 'Christians' your bias is based on.

Ummmm...what? No. According to Christian doctrine, Scott (gay), my wife (didn't believe in Christ), my mother (agnostic), even my father (adulterer) are all burning in hell as we speak. I'm headed there (agnostic), and so are my in-laws (don't believe in Christ), and my son (Jew). Honestly, no True Christian would actually dispute it.

Like I said it's disputed, but not completely ruled out. I just wasn't going to go into that whole debate here.

(Also being gay has nothing to do with going to hell, i'm attracted to men but i kinda figure on going to heaven.)

(Also, "true Christian" isn't that the term that bad debaters use?)

They don't drive them away, they attract them to their churches. Theirs are full.

They attract haters to their Churches, i'm sure you would find no condemnation at the Churches i've been too.
 
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JGG

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I'm trying to stand up, i'm giving you some very honest answers to what has gone wrong with the 'Christians' your bias is based on.

Okay, but you are hardly "Christianity." I think even you'd have to admit you are more the exception than the rule.

Like I said it's disputed, but not completely ruled out. I just wasn't going to go into that whole debate here.

Okay, he killed himself. Still in hell.

(Also, "true Christian" isn't that the term that bad debaters use?)

Yes. I enjoy using it in a sarcastic sense.

They attract haters to their Churches, i'm sure you would find no condemnation at the Churches i've been too.

Again, I'm not concerned about being condemned by a church. I'm worried about being punched in the face again, or worse by the "haters" Christianity attracts.
 
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david_x

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Okay, but you are hardly "Christianity." I think even you'd have to admit you are more the exception than the rule.

Not an exception, I live with and around many, many like minded people. The Church is alive despite their current predicament.


Okay, he killed himself. Still in hell.

Also a disputed concept, but not the core of the Christian belief so there is some hope and compromise though I hate to use that word.

Again, I'm not concerned about being condemned by a church. I'm worried about being punched in the face again, or worse by the "haters" Christianity attracts.

I can't promise that you will never be hurt by these 'haters' that's not in my power. Perhaps if your life had been safe in Christianity like mine, and mine was as counter as yours our roles might had been reversed. But excuse my pondering.

More to the point these actions are the condemnation I was describing. They condemned your friend, chasing him from their ranks. They condemned your wife for being Jewish. Christ is love, forgiveness, and redemption.

Because Christ loves you he died on the cross, he suffered and died to save your friend and wife from being separate from him. Possible now or not, that is why he died. Like any good thing (think dynamite or the nuclear reaction) it has been corrupted for selfish, often fearful intentions.
 
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