Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

[Major1]

Actually you can make a case for purgatory from Scripture. That is where is came from actually. But this is not the scope of this thread, which is no longer what is being discussed anyway.

No you can not!

You can make a case for Purgatory if you use the book of Maccabees but it is not Scriptures.

 

[Erose]

As has been stated, Sola Scriptura is not a Bible doctrine at all. It is NOT in the Bible as it is not a belief but is a method of understanding the Bible.

I wouldn't call it a method of understanding Scripture but rather a setting of what has dogmatic authority. If SS is a method of understanding Scripture it has failed miserably.

 

[Erose]

No you can not!

You can make a case for Purgatory if you use the book of Maccabees but it is not Scriptures.

Actually Maccabees is Scripture. Has been for over 2000 years.

 

[amariselle]

Actually that not true. The evidence is found in historical documents. No historical document written ever claims that St. Paul and St. John had a wife. Quite the contrary. But there are quite a few that claim what we claim about Mary.

I do find it interesting that you take as fact something that a modern scholar invented over what the early Church fathers taught.

I'm not sure what historical documents you're referring to, but we even have warnings in Scripture about error entering the Church.

So it doesn't really matter how far back such error might go. This is precisely why we should trust God's divinely inspired word above all other written or spoken words, no matter how old they may be.

 

[Major1]

Actually that not true. The evidence is found in historical documents. No historical document written ever claims that St. Paul and St. John had a wife. Quite the contrary. But there are quite a few that claim what we claim about Mary.

I do find it interesting that you take as fact something that a modern scholar invented over what the early Church fathers taught.

I find it just as interesting how comments are spun to fit an agenda.

There are NO Biblical records whatsoever that validate Mary as sinless or a perpetual virgin. There are Catholic historical records but those are of course tainted by those who wanted to make a doctrine when one did not exist.

 

[Phil 1:21]

No you can not!

You can make a case for Purgatory if you use the book of Maccabees but it is not Scriptures.

Truth be known, the verses being cited don't actually substantiate purgatory any more than the wedding at Cana is a dictate to pray for Mary to intercede with Jesus on our behalf.

 

[amariselle]

I wouldn't call it a method of understanding Scripture but rather a setting of what has dogmatic authority. If SS is a method of understanding Scripture it has failed miserably.

Sola Scriptura is founded on the belief that the Bible is the inspired word of God and is therefore to be trusted above any teachings or traditions of man. (And so we know we can seek the truth in God's word and rightly discern error.)

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." - Hebrews 4:12

 

[Erose]

I find it just as interesting how comments are spun to fit an agenda.

There are NO Biblical records whatsoever that validate Mary as sinless or a perpetual virgin. There are Catholic historical records but those are of course tainted by those who wanted to make a doctrine when one did not exist.

And yet you believe something as fact that has absolutely zero evidence in the Biblical or historical record. Me I believe in something that has always been taught for 2000 years.

 

[Erose]

I'm not sure what historical documents you're referring to, but we even have warnings in Scripture about error entering the Church.

So it doesn't really matter how far back such error might go. This is precisely why we should trust God's divinely inspired word above all other written or spoken words, no matter how old they may be.

How do you know for a fact that error hasn't entered into the Bible? The same Bible that has been copied over and over throughout the centuries by Catholic monks and nuns?

 

[Major1]

Actually Maccabees is Scripture. Has been for over 2000 years.

No it is not! It is in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant. Again your slant makes it appear as truth when it is not.

Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel ( in Gen. 4:8) to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

The "oracles of God" were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation.

However important those things are, the most damaging is Offering of money for the sins of the dead found in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

Do you accept that practice of giving money to pay for the sins of those who have died?????????

Is that what you are going to argue with my friend? I suggest you think this one over before you blindly make a statement that would make you look foolish.

 

[Erose]

Truth be known, the verses being cited don't actually substantiate purgatory any more than the wedding at Cana is a dictate to pray for Mary to intercede with Jesus on our behalf.

They do substantiate the doctrine of praying for the dead. For what reason should one pray for the dead, if it doesn't help the dead in one way or another. Obviously those in hell are there eternally and are beyond help, and those in heaven don't need our help. So yes it does substantiate the fact of purgatory.

 

[Major1]

And yet you believe something as fact that has absolutely zero evidence in the Biblical or historical record. Me I believe in something that has always been taught for 2000 years.

Whether it be right or wrong.....you are saying that age makes it right.

 

[Major1]

They do substantiate the doctrine of praying for the dead. For what reason should one pray for the dead, if it doesn't help the dead in one way or another. Obviously those in hell are there eternally and are beyond help, and those in heaven don't need our help. So yes it does substantiate the fact of purgatory.

Yes it does which is the ONLY reason the Catholic church accepted the book as Scripture to begin with.

Purgatory is found no where else and so the RCC had to grab what it could from where it could.

 

[Erose]

No it is not! It is in the Catholic Bible but not the Protestant. Again your slant makes it appear as truth when it is not.

Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel ( in Gen. 4:8) to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”

The "oracles of God" were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation.

However important those things are, the most damaging is Offering of money for the sins of the dead found in 2 Maccabees 12:43-45.

Do you accept that practice of giving money to pay for the sins of those who have died?????????

Is that what you are going to argue with my friend? I suggest you think this one over before you blindly make a statement that would make you look foolish.

You really don't know how you ended up with your Bible do you. Interesting subject I have to say. The Christian Bible has always possessed both books of the Maccabees. In fact it seems that even the Protestant Bibles did as well, up until it seems the 18th century when the publishers of the KJV Bible decided to take them out for budgetary reasons.

The point being is that Protestants removed those writings from the Bible, and not the other way around. That is just historical fact.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

This thread is closed for staff review as some cannot stop flaming.

Edit to add:

This thread generated many reports and has other problem posts. As a result, it will stay closed. ​