Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

[Phil 1:21]

I know…not another Mary thread.

There are dozens of threads with thousands of posts about whether or not Mary was conceived free from original sin, remained a virgin her entire life, and ascended body and soul into Heaven. So I have a simple question to my Catholic brothers and sisters. Why does it matter? Seriously, are these things really sticking points to your faith?

Let’s set aside the question of whether or not these things are based in scripture. If Mary was conceived like everyone else, had a normal sex life with Joseph after the birth of Jesus that produced offspring, and died and was buried like everyone else, what difference does it make? Does it change what happened at Calvary? Does it have anything to do with our justification and sanctification? Do you believe your eternal salvation is somehow contingent upon these things being true?

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I know…not another Mary thread.

There are dozens of threads with thousands of posts about whether or not Mary was conceived free from original sin, remained a virgin her entire life, and ascended body and soul into Heaven. So I have a simple question to my Catholic brothers and sisters. Why does it matter? Seriously, are these things really sticking points to your faith?

Let’s set aside the question of whether or not these things are based in scripture. If Mary was conceived like everyone else, had a normal sex life with Joseph after the birth of Jesus that produced offspring, and died and was buried like everyone else, what difference does it make? Does it change what happened at Calvary? Does it have anything to do with our justification and sanctification? Do you believe your eternal salvation is somehow contingent upon these things being true?

I thought people agreed JESUS had other siblings didn't realize it was a dispute that's interesting.

 

[zippy2006]

I know…not another Mary thread.

There are dozens of threads with thousands of posts about whether or not Mary was conceived free from original sin, remained a virgin her entire life, and ascended body and soul into Heaven. So I have a simple question to my Catholic brothers and sisters. Why does it matter? Seriously, are these things really sticking points to your faith?

Let’s set aside the question of whether or not these things are based in scripture. If Mary was conceived like everyone else, had a normal sex life with Joseph after the birth of Jesus that produced offspring, and died and was buried like everyone else, what difference does it make? Does it change what happened at Calvary? Does it have anything to do with our justification and sanctification? Do you believe your eternal salvation is somehow contingent upon these things being true?

Because they bear on the Incarnation and the nature of God. The theotokos debate of the early church is a good example. The opponents of the theotokos had a poor Christology which showed up in their understanding of Mary. I think the same thing holds with Protestant understandings of depravity and the resulting reflection on God and Mary. Doctrine about Mary always implicates God's relation to Israel, Jesus, and Mary.

Beyond that, don't we have a simple desire to get things right when we are talking about God and Jesus? There is a basic desire for truth and knowledge of God, along with the belief that error will be practically problematic. And doesn't that same desire extend, to a lesser extent, to the Mother of God?

 

[Halbhh]

Because they bear on the Incarnation and the nature of God. The theotokos debate of the early church is a good example. The opponents of the theotokos had a poor Christology which showed up in their understanding of Mary. I think the same thing holds with Protestant understandings of depravity and the resulting reflection on God and Mary. Doctrine about Mary always implicates God's relation to Israel, Jesus, and Mary.

Beyond that, don't we have a simple desire to get things right when we are talking about God and Jesus? There is a basic desire for truth and knowledge of God, along with the belief that error will be practically problematic. And doesn't that same desire extend, to a lesser extent, to the Mother of God?

Thank you. Isn't the essential truth in this regard in the creeds, sincerely? (by 'essential' I mean essential to salvation, what we believe in the way crucial to salvation; we know that saving faith requires belief in Christ, but does not require any esoteric knowledge nor any advanced knowledge. Even if a person knows little of what is in the New Testament, like most people in most churches, that isn't necessarily a barrier to salvation, if they can still keep His commands generally, which are only a few, and easy to understand for children (though not always for adults!).

Our faith in Christ, such as in the reality of the virgin birth of Christ:

Nicene Creed --

We believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
begotten from the Father before all ages,
God from God,
Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made;
of the same essence as the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven;
he became incarnate by the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary,
and was made human.
He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered and was buried.
The third day he rose again, according to the Scriptures.
He ascended to heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again with glory
to judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life.
He proceeds from the Father and the Son,
and with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic church.
We affirm one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look forward to the resurrection of the dead,
and to life in the world to come. Amen.

The Apostles' Creed --

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

 

[FireDragon76]

Of course it matters, as Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity.

For instance, there are indeed some Protestants that think Jesus body was "heavenly" or in some way different from ours. This is a serious heresy. I will state emphatically they worship a different Christ. Because a Christ who is not truly human in every way as we are, save sin, cannot save any of us, any more than a space alien could. We need a hypostatic union between God and humanity, not simply a moral example or a blood sacrifice.

Mary is the locus where the Incarnation happened, her biology is our Savior's biology, indeed it is not wrong to call her the Ark of the New Covenant. It's not wrong to meditate and reflect upon this in terms of theology, as the early Church did at Chalcedon in calling her Theotokos.

 

[pescador]

I thought people agreed JESUS had other siblings didn't realize it was a dispute that's interesting.

I have heard from a Catholic in another thread that Jesus' brothers were actually his cousins. (Really!) I guess the idea that Mary might have sexual desires and give birth to other children (as was the norm in NT days) is abhorrent to some.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Of course it matters, as Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity.

For instance, there are indeed some Protestants that think Jesus body was "heavenly" or in some way different from ours. This is a serious heresy. I will state emphatically they worship a different Christ. Because a Christ who is not truly human in every way as we are, save sin, cannot save any of us, any more than a space alien could. We need a hypostatic union between God and humanity, not simply a moral example or a blood sacrifice.

Mary is the locus where the Incarnation happened, her biology is our Savior's biology, indeed it is not wrong to call her the Ark of the New Covenant. It's not wrong to meditate and reflect upon this in terms of theology, as the early Church did at Chalcedon in calling her Theotokos.

I appreciate your response, but you didn't explain how hypostatic union is contingent upon the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, or the assumption of Mary. Let's just take one of those three, the perpetual virginity of Mary. How are Jesus' divine and human natures contingent upon Mary and Joseph never having sex?

 

[FireDragon76]

I appreciate your response, but you didn't explain how hypostatic union is contingent upon the immaculate conception, perpetual virginity, or the assumption of Mary. Let's just take one of those three, the perpetual virginity of Mary. How is Jesus' divine and human natures contingent upon Mary and Joseph never having sex?

Well, I'm Lutheran, but not Catholic . However, those doctrines do not contradict our confessions (except perhaps for the immaculate conception? I am no expert, at various times Luther affirmed this doctrine, at other times he assumed Mary was made immaculate at the Annuciation). You will find Lutherans with various opinions about them, and there is alot of good theology supporting those doctrines, particularly in the early and medieval church. And I understand and appreciate why Catholics take them seriously, and it's not necessarily for the usual reasons many Protestants assume.

 

[bbbbbbb]

In response to the OP the straight-up answer is quite clear.

In 1950 the Pope declared four doctrines about Mary to be Catholic dogma. In Catholicism a dogma is a doctrine which must be believed in order to be saved. If a Catholic does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, her immaculate (sinless) conception, her bodily assumption into heaven, and her status as God's mother.

 

[pescador]

In response to the OP the straight-up answer is quite clear.

In 1950 the Pope declared four doctrines about Mary to be Catholic dogma. In Catholicism a dogma is a doctrine which must be believed in order to be saved. If a Catholic does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, her immaculate (sinless) conception, her bodily assumption into heaven, and her status as God's mother.

The Pope doesn't determine who is saved, God does.

 

[Fidelibus]

In response to the OP the straight-up answer is quite clear.

In 1950 the Pope declared four doctrines about Mary to be Catholic dogma. In Catholicism a dogma is a doctrine which must be believed in order to be saved. If a Catholic does not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, her immaculate (sinless) conception, her bodily assumption into heaven, and her status as God's mother.

FYI,
In general, doctrine is all Church teaching in matters of faith and morals. Dogma is more narrowly defined as that part of doctrine which has been divinely revealed and which the Church has formally defined and declared to be believed as revealed.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains,

The Church’s magisterium exercises the authority it holds from Christ to the fullest extent when it defines dogmas, that is, when it proposes, in a form obliging the Christian people to an irrevocable adherence of faith, truths contained in divine Revelation or also when it proposes, in a definitive way, truths having a necessary connection with these. (CCC 88)

(source:Catholic Answers.com)

 

[bbbbbbb]

The Pope doesn't determine who is saved, God does.

You and I both believe that, but as you can see from Catholics here, it is not merely the random thoughts of the Pope that matter, but what has been (believed by the Catholic Church) divinely revealed through him. Dogma and doctrine in the Catholic Church are not static things as in the Orthodox and Protestant churches, but are dynamic and progressive, being revealed and defined over time.

 

[Dale]

Of course it matters, as Mary is the source of Jesus' humanity.

For instance, there are indeed some Protestants that think Jesus body was "heavenly" or in some way different from ours. This is a serious heresy. I will state emphatically they worship a different Christ. Because a Christ who is not truly human in every way as we are, save sin, cannot save any of us, any more than a space alien could. We need a hypostatic union between God and humanity, not simply a moral example or a blood sacrifice.

Mary is the locus where the Incarnation happened, her biology is our Savior's biology, indeed it is not wrong to call her the Ark of the New Covenant. It's not wrong to meditate and reflect upon this in terms of theology, as the early Church did at Chalcedon in calling her Theotokos.

If there is any Protestant church that believes that the physical body of Jesus was not made of ordinary matter, I'd like to know which church that is. I've never heard of Jesus being born with a "heavenly body."

 

[concretecamper]

I know…not another Mary thread.

There are dozens of threads with thousands of posts about whether or not Mary was conceived free from original sin, remained a virgin her entire life, and ascended body and soul into Heaven. So I have a simple question to my Catholic brothers and sisters. Why does it matter? Seriously, are these things really sticking points to your faith?

Let’s set aside the question of whether or not these things are based in scripture. If Mary was conceived like everyone else, had a normal sex life with Joseph after the birth of Jesus that produced offspring, and died and was buried like everyone else, what difference does it make? Does it change what happened at Calvary? Does it have anything to do with our justification and sanctification? Do you believe your eternal salvation is somehow contingent upon these things being true?

When the Church defines dogma, it's because it has been divinely revealed. Not believing it is the same as not believing Christ. That is a serious transgression.

 

[Phil 1:21]

When the Church defines dogma, it's because it has been divinely revealed. Not believing it is the same as not believing Christ. That is a serious transgression.

The RCC is not God.

 

[concretecamper]

Reread my response, I never said the Church was God.

You asked why, I told you why. I thought your question was sincere. If you want to turn this into a bashing thread...go ahead.

 

[Phil 1:21]

No reason to read it again. Thank you for your opinion, but it is just that, your opinion. Folks are free to agree or disagree. That's how this works.

 

[Albion]

If there is any Protestant church that believes that the physical body of Jesus was not made of ordinary matter, I'd like to know which church that is. I've never heard of Jesus being born with a "heavenly body."

I agree! The idea that Jesus' body was not physical--an idea associated with the Gnostics in antiquity--is quite unorthodox. And then to claim that "some Protestants" believe in it is irresponsible, that's all.

What does "some Protestants" even mean--four out of 300,000,000? That's some. We could easily say that some Catholics believe or some Republicans believe or some Australians believe...and we could probably find "some" somewhere. It means nothing.

 

[Halbhh]

Good point there Dale and Albion. It's odd to hear that we are supposed to believe some bizarre idea like that.

It's like if someone heard there was a murder in San Jose, and then jumped to the conclusion that all people in the city are endorsing murder....

It's what we all on all side of any discussion should avoid.

I won't characterize people on the other side a a discussion with any kind of characterization if I can avoid it, and want to know when I slip up, so I can correct it.

The reality is that I don't know what person A believes about any question, really, until they themselves say what they believe.

 

[Halbhh]

When the Church defines dogma, it's because it has been divinely revealed. Not believing it is the same as not believing Christ. That is a serious transgression.

Then....there isn't any difference of opinion inside your church, even your own local congregation, on some of the dogmas....?....

I'm very aware if you say "dogma" very few would dare to speak up to you with a different view.

I mean when you have some over for a cookout, and talk for hours, and learn what they really think, instead of only superficial.

Isn't there more than one view on say contraception? Should I presume that's not a dogma then?

Of course, I don't know what all of your 'dogmas' are. Most Christians don't even know most all of the New Testament.
But, here's an example of dogma to me -- I know I believe in 100% of the wordings, every bit, of the Nicene Creed.

That's a 'dogma' I suppose.

But it's vastly more following Him to read His own Words and dwell in them and keep them instead of only reciting the Creed.

The Creed is many of the most crucial and central truths we have.

Yet, in spite of these statements being the most crucial of all...

Still, it's far better to dwell in and keep His words in our hearts than to only just say and agree to the Creed... The Creed is not enough. Even though it says required beliefs.


I'm sometimes worried that when we recite the creeds in our churches, some simply take it as a substitute for learning what He said in His own words. Some will pay attention during the gospel readings, but others will just think they did the creed and that's enough.

Isn't there a danger that worrying about dogma can become (doesn't have to) even a sort of enforcement mindset, which would naturally, as human nature, tend to become like pharisee attitude, of enforcing rules? That's only natural. It's a natural danger. Any and all can do it. I have, and then caught myself, long ago. The danger as I see it is to leave, abandon (in worst case), Christ's statement we are to worship not by rules, not dogma, not forms, not exact correct liturgy even, but instead to worship "in spirit and in truth" -- from the heart, for real. Genuine inside. That which isn't visible.