Catholics...Why Do Beliefs About Mary Matter?

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amariselle

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Satan and demons are not the personification of evil. Good has substance because God is good. God created all things good, indeed very good. Originally Satan and all demons were good. But through their actions they rejected (or probably better deprived themselves of) goodness, and went the route of evil. Evil exists because some of God's creatures rejected the Good. That is the sad part. Anyway St. Augustine wrote about this much better, and in greater depth than I could possibly hope here.

The point is God created all things; but He didn't create evil nor sin. There is no substance to either, but rather they are either a deprivation or a corruption of something substantial, but they aren't a substance.

What I meant was, they are real beings and they do evil and lead others to do the same.

But I get what you're saying.
 
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amariselle

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Actually you can make a case for purgatory from Scripture. That is where is came from actually. But this is not the scope of this thread, which is no longer what is being discussed anyway.

Well, I did actually ask questions about Mary specifically, a number of posts back now.
 
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amariselle

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It would be better for these to have their own threads. There is too much here to discuss in just a post or two.

This thread is about Mary, right?
 
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FenderTL5

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How can a discussion of the Scriptures on Purgatory happen when Purgatory is NOT in the Bible at all?
I would presume much the same way a discussion on the scriptures declaring sola scriptura take place. ;)
You are correct in that Sola Scriptura is not found in the Bible..
 
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Erose

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In a way I regret that you wont be replying to this, but you touch an important but perhaps overlooked point there. On the one hand it seems that it is pointless for Protestants to ask Catholics to prove any doctrine from Scripture when the Catholics are--as you note--Tradition based.

But the fact is that Catholics try to have it both ways. They always insist that the doctrines that are unique to them ARE backed by Scripture. Then they produce some far-fetched analogy or a verse that doesn't support the doctrine in question.

For example, citing the angels announcement to Mary that she has found favor with God as meaning that she was the Immaculate Conception. Or saying that the Ark of the Covenant held God and Mary held God in her womb, ergo that's proof! Or citing the admonition that we should ask our neighbor for prayer as a justification for the veneration of the saints.

Perhaps it would be better all around if our friends simply said that whatever it is comes from Tradition, not Scripture, and let it go at that.
I think one thing that should also be pointed out is that for all the non-Catholics that have an issue with us having a Sacred Tradition, are ignorant of the very fact that they are arguing against our Sacred Tradition using their sacred tradition. Solo Scriptura is a fallacy that doesn't exist (and you will notice I used Solo instead of Sola that is intentional), all people here read Scripture through the lens of what they believe. It is just a fact and cannot be refuted.

Is there things that we accept as doctrine that cannot be explicitly confirmed in Scripture? You bet yeah. I ain't denying that. But we as a Church aren't a reboot, we are still carrying on the same as we have had for nearly 2000 years.

Assumption of Mary? In Scripture? Nope not there. Why? Because most of the NT was already written. Perpetual Virginity of Mary? Is it explicitly found in Scripture? Nope. Why? Probably because a) it wasn't the focus of the what was being written, and b) because the writers of the NT couldn't imagine the question being asked, and c) probably also for Mary's personal protection. Anyway history states that she remained a virgin. There isn't one single Father of the Church who has ever claimed what the modern churches claim about her. It was a given. Immaculate conception? Not explicitly in Scripture either, but like the Perpetual Virginity implicitly there. But again not one single Father of the Church has ever claimed anything else than Mary being the sinless virgin.

But here is the thing. There are things that even the reboot churches believe that aren't no where found in Scripture, and was carried down through Tradition and they don't even realize it. The easy one is praying to Jesus. No place in Scripture does it teach that we should pray to Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Only praying to the Father is addressed in the NT or the OT. Yet I've been in quite a few reboot churches where praying to Jesus is the norm. So there is just as much evidence in Scripture for praying to Mary as there is praying to her Son.

What about the table of contents in the front of every Protestant Bible? This also comes down through tradition, for I have seen nothing that states that the table of contents is inspired. I don't think anyone claims this as so. But very few ever really stop and thing where this comes from. I'm sure there are even more that can be brought up, but I think the point is made.
 
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PeaceB

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You're no doubt correct about that.

Just out of curiosity though, how would you reconcile the doctrine of Purgatory with what Jesus said in John 19:28-30?

"After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."

Along with these verses, which are also clear that the sacrifice for sins was once for all time made by Christ alone, and is entirely sufficient to cleanse us from sin?

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high..." - Hebrews 1:1-3

"For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin." - Hebrews 10:1-18

" If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. - 1 John 1:9


There are many other verses as well. Just from these though, how does Purgatory still make sense if Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is what purged our sins, once for all, completely?

I will get back to you later on these.
 
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Erose

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Good answer!

And that is what has been the debate all along.

Some of the Catholic doctrines ARE NOT Biblical but instead are the thoughts and actions of men in the form of "Traditions" today.
None of us has claimed that all Catholic doctrines are explicitly found in Scripture. Heck quite a few of the doctrines that are accepted by Protestants are not found explicitly in Scripture either. That is why we have Sacred Tradition, which Scripture is part of that has been handed down to us for 2000 years. Remember the Catholic Church is not a reboot, nor is it based upon people's personal interpretations of Scripture 2000 years removed from the fact.
 
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Thursday

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Standard response. Are you willing to support Catholic Traditions with Scripture or not? Surely you can take the time to personally show me the Scriptural support for the things I mentioned.


I did, but you reject the truth and hold to man made prejudices.
 
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Thursday

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Instead of saying..........
"The web site is full of scripture. You don't want to read it, apparently, because you want to hold on to your bigoted views" to all of us who do not accept Catholic traditions........
why not post the one you are talking about instead of the blanket comments.

What specifically is the bigoted question in your mind. How can anyone respond top such an opened ended comment????


I did post it, and neither of you bothered to read any of it because apparently you aren't interested in the truth.
 
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Thursday

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You did not. Pointing to Catholic references is not an honest answer.


Of course it is. You leave me no choice when you write a dozen attacks in a single post.

Pick a single topic you want addressed. We both know that you aren't really interested in the truth, however, or you would have read one of the detailed and scriptural articles I provided you.
 
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amariselle

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Of course it is. You leave me no choice when you write a dozen attacks in a single post.

Pick a single topic you want addressed. We both know that you aren't really interested in the truth, however, or you would have read one of the detailed and scriptural articles I provided you.

Yeah....I'm not interested in arguing with you. I have been nothing but polite and respectful.

You can continue to make all the presumptions about me you like.

God bless.
 
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Thursday

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Yeah....I'm not interested in arguing with you. I have been nothing but polite and respectful.

You can continue to make all the presumptions about me you like.

God bless.


Now that's funny. You have done nothing but disparage Catholics with false attacks and then when we defend ourselves you are offended.
 
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amariselle

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Now that's funny. You have done nothing but disparage Catholics with false attacks and then when we defend ourselves you are offended.

Show me where I have done so?

Disagreeing and asking questions is not an "attack" you know.

On the other hand, calling someone a "bigot" simply because they asked honest questions and raised Biblical concerns is.

Even though you have repeatedly resorted to name calling, I have not responded in kind.

Now, I can tell that continued communication will not be fruitful in any way.

Have a good day and God bless you.
 
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