Catholics, what exactly do you believe about Mary?

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Albion

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Baptism is the public profession of a persons Faith in Jesus Christ. It is symbolic of our own dying to self and rebirth to live as a child of God.

Accepting Christ must be a conscious decision. Obedience to Christ in a public profession of this conscious decision, by baptism, is not necessary for salvation but done in obedience.

An infant cannot make a conscious decision to accept Christ. An infant and young child cannot be held accountable for it's actions either.
All that is true, if we're dealing with the minority of Protestants who are in the Anabaptist tradition. It also doesn't seem to have anything to do with the topic concerning how some people see the role or authority of Mary.

Telling someone that their baby will go to hell if it is not sprinkled with some water, in my opinion, has driven great numbers of people to believe that God is a monster.
Leading to the obvious question...who might have told them that? None of the major Protestant or Catholic denominations believe and teach such a thing.
 
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Albion

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Indeed, it may not for you. It was not my intent to persuade you personally, but to speak the truth. You know... evangelize.

Isn't evangelizing about leading people to Christ?

Anyway, you probably will have to have something ready when the person you're "evangelizing" asks why he should believe all those stories about Marian apparitions, her bodily assumption, and so on. And it can't just be a recitation of the stories themselves or that old standby, "the church says so." ;)
 
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Germatria1128

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Baptism is the public profession of a persons Faith in Jesus Christ.

You are slightly incorrect in your phrasing "faith in Jesus Christ." John the Baptist was baptizing BEFORE Christ even came to him for baptism Himself and well before Christ's fulfillment of mission and the evolution from John's type of baptism to Christ's "baptism of the Holy Spirit."

So baptism was practiced BEFORE Christ's mission but admittedly paved the way. So the people that were being baptized by John BEFORE Christ's ministry were doing a public profession of ________(fill in the blank)_______.
 
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kepha31

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I see that your motto is honesty, integrity, fidelity. Your response here is far from honest.

First, Martin Luther included the seven questionable books in his translation of the Bible into German, so it is false to state that he eliminated them. He did follow standard practice of the time by including them, but setting them apart as a unique group. It was not until later at the Council of Trent that the Catholic Church altered its position concerning the canon of scripture and dogmatically declared these books to be authoritative, on the level of the canonical books of the Bible.
This is a Protestant myth. Trent affirmed what had always been there. Trent merely clarified a dispute.
The Council of Rome in 382 declared the Greek Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament) to be Scripture, this included those extra books.
The Council of Carthage affirmed the Council of Rome, which is the same canon Catholics use today.
The Council of Florence affirmed the Council of Carthage, which is the same canon Catholics use today.
The Council of Trent affirmed the Council of Florence, which is the same canon Catholics use today. The canon was closed at Carthage in 397 AD. Trent closed the discussion, it did not close the canon that had already been closed.

]Third, Luther was probably just as crazy and egotistic as any other person of his generation. You are bearing false witness against him, which, in your Church, is a mortal sin. There is no clinical indication of insanity on his part.
In 1937, a Copenhagen Psychiatrist, Paul J. Reiter MD wrote a 2 volume study, Martin Luther's World Character and Psychosis and the Influence of These Factors on his Development and Teachings which also demonstrated in detail from his own writings that Luther was mentally disturbed.
There is a review of Reiter's book here:
Psychoanalytic Quarterly

Finally, there is nothing in the additional seven books which provides anything to distinguish its doctrine from that of the remainder of the Bible, so there is no doctrinal reason to accept or reject these books.
The Christian acceptance of the deuterocanonical books was logical because the deuterocanonicals were also included in the Septuagint, the Greek edition of the Old Testament which the apostles used to evangelize the world.
But the apostles did not merely place the deuterocanonicals in the hands of their converts as part of the Septuagint. They regularly referred to the deuterocanonicals in their writings. For example, Hebrews 11 encourages us to emulate the heroes of the Old Testament and in the Old Testament “Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life” Heb. 11:35
One thing you can never find — anywhere in the Protestant Old Testament, from front to back, from Genesis to Malachi — is someone being tortured and refusing to accept release for the sake of a better resurrection. If you want to find that, you have to look in the Catholic Old Testament — in the deuterocanonical books Martin Luther cut out of his Bible.
As I said, Saint Jerome, who is held to be a Saint by your Church, rejected the seven books in question long before the time of Luther. The canon of scripture was a matter of considerable theological debate within the Catholic Church up until the Council of Trent. Luther was not the first, nor the only Catholic to question the canonicity of these books.
There were one, possible two, cardinals raising questions, but they did not rebel. The "considerable debate" was primarily over the reformers objections.

Protestant apologists often attempt to make Jerome the spokesman for a large silent majority of knowledgeable Christians in his day; this opinion is supported by no evidence whatsoever. Protestant scholars have long admitted that Jerome was essentially alone in his opposition to the Deuterocanon . . . It was also a decisive break from the practice of the ancient Christian Church.

But even with Jerome, there were several anomalies (or changes of mind or vacillations?), of such a nature that they would shock many a Protestant who rely on him as a “champion” in opposing the Deuterocanon. Michuta enumerates several of these curious inconsistencies:

He . . . flatly denies that Tobit is part of the canon, [1] although elsewhere he cites it without qualification! [2] . . . Jerome adopts the popular convention in his Letter to Oceanus by quoting Baruch as a voice made by “the trumpets of the prophets.” [3] Sirach is both rejected and quoted as Scripture, [4] although it is formally quoted [5] and occasionally used without qualification. [6] Wisdom is also occasionally formally quoted. [7] Jerome even attributes the passages from Wisdom to the Holy Spirit. [8] Maccabees is used without distinction. [9] Jerome at times alludes to the Deuterocanonical sections of Daniel in his letters. [10] Deuterocanonical passages from Esther are likewise quoted. [11] . . . he lists Judith as one of the virtuous women of sacred Scripture . . . [12].
St. Jerome's Deuterocanon "Anomalies"


jerome.png
 
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Thursday

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Baptism is the public profession of a persons Faith in Jesus Christ. It is symbolic of our own dying to self and rebirth to live as a child of God.

Accepting Christ must be a conscious decision. Obedience to Christ in a public profession of this conscious decision, by baptism, is not necessary for salvation but done in obedience.

An infant cannot make a conscious decision to accept Christ. An infant and young child cannot be held accountable for it's actions either.

Only when a person has reached the level of intellect where it can comprehend it's sinful nature and need for forgiveness, only then can it be deemed to have the need or ability to accept or reject Christ.

We only need to read of King David and his actions during the birth and death of his son in 2 Samuel 12:22-23. Unless you think that David has gone to hell.

Telling someone that their baby will go to hell if it is not sprinkled with some water, in my opinion, has driven great numbers of people to believe that God is a monster.

I personally believe that He is a God of love, grace and mercy. Humans without the capacity to understand the concept of sin, forgiveness and other aspects of salvation, will not be sent to hell because they didn't have someone take them to a holy man to put water on their head and say a prayer.


So I think you are saying that the power of Baptism comes from our will, not from God's grace.

Is that right?
 
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lsume

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Luther removed those seven books. The Catholic bible, ie the original Christian bible, still has and has always contained those books.

Why do you think Luther removed them?

Did you know that the original King James version contained those seven books?

Is The Book of Enoch in The Catholic Bible?
 
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bbbbbbb

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Please post where he said such a thing. I don't see it.

Please see my post #238 where I respond to his highly false assertion concerning Martin Luther. In it he said, "Martin Luther ( a man who was crazy and egotistic) produced without the additional 7 books in the OT." For him, as with many Catholics, the Reformation is all about Martin Luther. It is quite evident that he knows little or nothing concerning efforts to reform the Catholic Church both prior to as well as after the life of Martin Luther.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Yes. Mary being Mother of God does not mean that she created God, merely that she bore him when he came in the flesh.

So, there was no chronology to His advent into the world by Mary. Her relationship to Him was not chronological in nature even as God's relationship to being His own Father is not chronological. BTW, this is the first time I have encountered the notion that God is the Father of Himself.
 
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FenderTL5

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So, the role of Mother of God is merely a relationship and not a chronology. Interesting.
I'm curious, why would you find that interesting? Practically everything about Christianity is relational. God to man, man to man etc it's at the very core of the faith to be in communion with God and one another.
That communion between God and man is broken is the Genesis story. That Christ came to restore communion is the Gospel.
 
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PeaceB

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There is no "power of baptism". At its best, baptism is a testimony of the faith of a believer in Jesus Christ. At its worst, it is merely getting a person wet. Baptism, in and of itself, is utterly powerless.
I suppose that is why Jesus said "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".
 
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bbbbbbb

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The canon of the Old Testament in the Church of the first three centuries
The sub-Apostolic writings of Clement, Polycarp, the author of the Epistle of Barnabas, of the pseudo-Clementine homilies, and the "Shepherd" of Hermas, contain implicit quotations from or allusions to all the deuterocanonicals except Baruch (which anciently was often united with Jeremias) and I Machabees and the additions to David. No unfavourable argument can be drawn from the loose, implicit character of these citations, since these Apostolic Fathers quote the protocanonical Scriptures in precisely the same manner.

Coming down to the next age, that of the apologists, we find Baruch cited by Athenagoras as a prophet. St. Justin Martyr is the first to note that the Church has a set of Old Testament Scriptures different from the Jews', and also the earliest to intimate the principle proclaimed by later writers, namely, the self-sufficiency of the Church in establishing the Canon; its independence of the Synagogue in this respect. The full realization of this truth came slowly, at least in the Orient, where there are indications that in certain quarters the spell of Palestinian-Jewish tradition was not fully cast off for some time. St. Melito, Bishop of Sardis (c. 170), first drew up a list of the canonical books of the Old Testament. While maintaining the familiar arrangement of the Septuagint, he says that he verified his catalogue by inquiry among Jews; Jewry by that time had everywhere discarded the Alexandrian books, and Melito's Canon consists exclusively of the protocanonicals minus Esther. It should be noticed, however, that the document to which this catalogue was prefixed is capable of being understood as having an anti-Jewish polemical purpose, in which case Melito's restricted canon is explicable on another ground. St. Irenæus, always a witness of the first rank, on account of his broad acquaintance with ecclesiastical tradition, vouches that Baruch was deemed on the same footing as Jeremias, and that the narratives of Susanna and Bel and the Dragon were ascribed to Daniel. The Alexandrian tradition is represented by the weighty authority of Origen. Influenced, doubtless, by the Alexandrian-Jewish usage of acknowledging in practice the extra writings as sacred while theoretically holding to the narrower Canon of Palestine, his catalogue of the Old Testament Scriptures contains only the protocanonical books, though it follows the order of the Septuagint. Nevertheless Origen employs all the deuterocanonicals as Divine Scriptures, and in his letter of Julius Africanus defends the sacredness of Tobias, Judith, and the fragments of Daniel, at the same time implicitly asserting the autonomy of the Church in fixing the Canon (see references in Cornely). In his Hexaplar edition of the Old Testament all the deuteros find a place. The sixth-century Biblical manuscript known as the "Codex Claromontanus" contains a catalogue to which both Harnack and Zahn assign an Alexandrian origin, about contemporary with Origen. At any rate it dates from the period under examination and comprises all the deuterocanonical books, with IV Machabees besides. St. Hippolytus (d. 236) may fairly be considered as representing the primitive Roman tradition. He comments on the Susanna chapter, often quotes Wisdom as the work of Solomon, and employs as Sacred Scripture Baruch and the Machabees. For the West African Church the larger canon has two strong witnesses in Tertullian and St. Cyprian. All the deuteros except Tobias, Judith, and the addition to Esther, are biblically used in the works of these Fathers. (With regard to the employment of apocryphal writings in this age see under APOCRYPHA.)

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Canon of the Old Testament

This is the present stance of the Catholic Church which, of course, is highly colored by the Council of Trent. It is not at all unlike the stance developed in 1950 following the dogmatization of the four Marian Dogmas.

The reality, of course, is that the canon of scripture does vary among the branches of Christianity to this very day and only the Roman Catholic Church dogmatically insists that its canon alone is the absolute and true canon. What they emphatically deny is the actual history behind the dogmatization that occured at the Council of Trent, creating the myth that there was only one canon prior to the Council of Trent.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I suppose that is why Jesus said "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

And? Making disciples includes an enormous number of factors. If it were merely a matter of getting people wet while intoning a sacred formula I would accuse the Catholic Church of utterly failing to obey this command. I have not seen any Catholic priests ever going door to door with a bowl of water to baptize folks, have you?
 
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Thursday

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Please see my post #238 where I respond to his highly false assertion concerning Martin Luther. In it he said, "Martin Luther ( a man who was crazy and egotistic) produced without the additional 7 books in the OT." For him, as with many Catholics, the Reformation is all about Martin Luther. It is quite evident that he knows little or nothing concerning efforts to reform the Catholic Church both prior to as well as after the life of Martin Luther.


Your quote from him doesn't say what you are accusing him of.
 
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JacksBratt

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You are slightly incorrect in your phrasing "faith in Jesus Christ." John the Baptist was baptizing BEFORE Christ even came to him for baptism Himself and well before Christ's fulfillment of mission and the evolution from John's type of baptism to Christ's "baptism of the Holy Spirit."

So baptism was practiced BEFORE Christ's mission but admittedly paved the way. So the people that were being baptized by John BEFORE Christ's ministry were doing a public profession of ________(fill in the blank)_______.
I understand the timing issue. However, when we are baptized, what are the words that are quoted?
"In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" ...........Right?
 
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Thursday

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This is the present stance of the Catholic Church which, of course, is highly colored by the Council of Trent. It is not at all unlike the stance developed in 1950 following the dogmatization of the four Marian Dogmas.

The reality, of course, is that the canon of scripture does vary among the branches of Christianity to this very day and only the Roman Catholic Church dogmatically insists that its canon alone is the absolute and true canon. What they emphatically deny is the actual history behind the dogmatization that occured at the Council of Trent, creating the myth that there was only one canon prior to the Council of Trent.


Jesus only started one Church. Do you think Jesus wants us to disagree about dogma and morality, or does he want us to be one as he and the Father are one.

You reject those sent by Jesus. You'll have to deal with that in your own way for now.
 
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bbbbbbb

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I'm curious, why would you find that interesting? Practically everything about Christianity is relational. God to man, man to man etc it's at the very core of the faith to be in communion with God and one another.
That communion between God and man is broken is the Genesis story. That Christ came to restore communion is the Gospel.

The reason I find it interesting is that orthodox Christianity has emphatically denied heresies such as which deny the physical aspects of Jesus Christ, denying that He entered into time and, therefore, had a chronological relationship to humanity.

Here, however, I find an individual who informs me that His connection with the Mother of God is merely relational and not chronological even as God's relationship with His Father is relational and not chronological.
 
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Thursday

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So, there was no chronology to His advent into the world by Mary. Her relationship to Him was not chronological in nature even as God's relationship to being His own Father is not chronological. BTW, this is the first time I have encountered the notion that God is the Father of Himself.

If you deny that Jesus is God then you might have that view.

For those who believe that God the Father is the Father of God the son, this is nothing new.
 
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