Catholics pray for 'Jews' conversion'

[jeson000]

Vatican spokesman: Good Friday liturgy was an error and will be rectified.


ROME – On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.=quote]



I don't think there is anything wrong in making a Prayer for others. Christians (Catholics) are supposed to pray for themselves, their family, parents, children, friends, foes & neighbors (irrespective of their Faith), Leaders of the world countries and the Church, the sick, the suffering, starving ..... for every one...!!!

Dear Lord Jesus, Bless All People and give your wisdom to realize and Believe that YOU have died for All of them.

 

[zhilan]

Contra,

I've never heard anyone wanting to change the prayers and I can assure you they are not going to change. I don't understand why you are focusing on us when you are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. The prayers are from the bible. The bible says, "may His blood be upon us and our children" - the prayers are no worse than the Bible. If they offend you I'm sorry, but some people will always be offended. People are offended when we as Christians say Christ is God. Really, none of us need to justify our prayers to you. You have chosen the Episcopalian church so you don't need to worry about it. I don't go to your forum and tell you how offended I am that you have women priests and go against the Bible by sanctioning homosexuality, that's your religion and your choice, so please don't come here and tell us how we should pray and what should be done in our churches.

 

[Ivy]

You've made a very misplaced personal attack on someone, zhilan. Maybe you want to calm down and rethink what you have said.

Try to hear someone else's hurt and sympathise with it, as Jesus would.

 

[QuantaCura]

The Jews are singled out because God singled them out. Also, if we don't desire and seek the conversion of Jews to the Body of Christ, we are truly anti-semitic. We would be hiding from them salvation and also their own rightful patrimony, the fulfillment of the covenant promised to their fathers. We should also not be ashamed by the Gospel.

Anyway, our own Pope teaches that all Jews are called by Christ to convert. I don't see what's wrong with praying for it.

In choosing the Twelve, introducing them into a communion of life with himself and involving them in his mission of proclaiming the Kingdom in words and works (cf. Mk 6: 7-13; Mt 10: 5-8; Lk 9: 1-6; 6: 13), Jesus wants to say that the definitive time has arrived in which to constitute the new People of God, the people of the 12 tribes, which now becomes a universal people, his Church.

Appeal for Israel

With their very own existence, the Twelve - called from different backgrounds - become an appeal for all of Israel to convert and allow herself to be gathered into the new covenant, complete and perfect fulfilment of the ancient one. The fact that he entrusted to his Apostles, during the Last Supper and before his Passion, the duty to celebrate his Pasch, demonstrates how Jesus wished to transfer to the entire community, in the person of its heads, the mandate to be a sign and instrument in history of the eschatological gathering begun by him. In a certain sense we can say that the Last Supper itself is the act of foundation of the Church, because he gives himself and thus creates a new community, a community united in communion with himself.

General Audience, 15 March 2006

Charity is lacking when we place our own desire for human respect above our desire for the salvation of souls.

 

[Ivy]

The Jews are singled out because God singled them out. Also, if we don't desire and seek the conversion of Jews to the Body of Christ, we are truly anti-semitic. We would be denying them salvation and also their own rightful patrimony, the fulfillment of the covenant promised to their fathers.

They were singled out to be a blessing and to be blessed, not to be everyone's scapegoat!

Being singled out in such a negative way as they have been in the not-too-distant past by Christians probably only prejudices them further against salvation--maybe it is our own hardheadedness and lack of common human sensitivity that prevents it. Ever think that we may have some culpability in their so-called "stubbornness"?

Maybe we are the stubborn ones when we refuse to speak and act with common human sensitivity.

Yes, let's desire their salvation, but let's do it in a wise, kind, human way, not a blunt, stupid, insensitive way that only puts up more walls.

 

[QuantaCura]

They were singled out to be a blessing and to be blessed, not to be everyone's scapegoat!

I agree with you 100%. It's the very reason why we pray for their conversion. The most important blessing they were promised, and which most of their forefathers unfortuantely rejected, is the Messiah, the Son of God come in the flesh.

Being singled out in such a negative way as they have been in the not-too-distant past by Christians probably only prejudices them further against salvation--maybe it is our own hardheadedness and lack of common human sensitivity that prevents it. Ever think that we may have some culpability in their so-called "stubbornness"?

Maybe we are the stubborn ones when we refuse to speak and act with common human sensitivity.

Yes, let's desire their salvation, but let's do it in a wise, kind, human way, not a blunt, stupid, insensitive way that only puts up more walls.

I can agree with this too, but some truths are going to be offensive to certain individuals no matter what--you can only soften them so much before they lose their meaning.

 

[Ivy]

I agree with you 100%. It's the very reason why we pray for their conversion. The most important blessing they were promised, and which most of their forefathers unfortuantely rejected, is the Messiah, the Son of God come in the flesh.


I can agree with this too, but some truths are going to be offensive to certain individuals no matter what--you can only soften them so much before they lose their meaning.

Do you feel like, in regard to the Jewish people, that the problem has been too much softening of things?

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

The prayers of the Orthodox liturgy did not fall out of the sky given by God my friend. They were introduced into the Liturgy, so in fact, they are living proof that prayers can and have been changed.

You are working from a false theology of Liturgy, probably because you have become accustomed to a liturgy which was constructed from bits and pieces of traditional Liturgy and the author's own imagination.

For us, the Liturgy is not a human achievement, but a divine one. The Liturgy is part of Holy Tradition and cannot be changed but only develop naturally as we learn to express things better. The Liturgy is an expression of the faith of the Church and is fundamental to it - lex orandi, lex credendi. To change a prayer by decree would mean a change in theology and a denial of past faith. The call to convert the world which Jesus proclaim has not changed, nor should the conversion of the Jews not be expressly prayed for since our theology has not and cannot be changed.

 

[zhilan]

You are working from a false theology of Liturgy, probably because you have become accustomed to a liturgy which was constructed from bits and pieces of traditional Liturgy and the author's own imagination.

For us, the Liturgy is not a human achievement, but a divine one. The Liturgy is part of Holy Tradition and cannot be changed but only develop naturally as we learn to express things better. The Liturgy is an expression of the faith of the Church and is fundamental to it - lex orandi, lex credendi. To change a prayer by decree would mean a change in theology and a denial of past faith. The call to convert the world which Jesus proclaim has not changed, nor should the conversion of the Jews not be expressly prayed for since our theology has not and cannot be changed.

Thank you!!! You said what I have been trying to express so much better. I hope this well help others understand why it is so offensive to suggest we should "change" our prayers because some people don't like them.

 

[Ivy]

Liturgy and prayers have changed many times throughout the ages. This reflects the fact that humankind grows in revelation and understanding of God (and also the fact that each generation has its own wonderful testimony of God's work in their lives). This is part of growing up into the full stature of Christ and it is not bad--it's good!

And the Holy Spirit is moving on many Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic, to an increased understanding of God's heart of love towards the Jewish people--and of how we can be better conduits of that love.

 

[Woodsy]

There's a dreadful error in that. Frankly, that's almost embarrasing to read. The Jewish faith does in fact uphold the dignity of non-Jews, whereas some sects of Christianity make it a point to deride other cultures and nationalities.

What's embarrassing for this born Jew to read are all the Jewish theological writings (by folks such as Moshe Chaim Luzzatto, who is by no stretch of the imagination a minor figure in Jewish theological thought) which teach us that the Gentiles have animals souls, inferior to the souls of Jews. And I don't need to get my information second-hand, from "anti-semitic" websites. I own copies of works such as "Derech Hashem," in which Luzzatto makes such assertions. I almost threw the book down in disgust when I read this.
And Luzzatto is not alone, nor is his a minority opinion in Orthodox Judaism.
Simply one of the reasons I am no longer a Jew by religion.

 

[Woodsy]

Aren't our scriptures the books you call the Old Testament? What is in there that speaks ill of Jesus?

It is disingenuous at best to ignore the fact that what Christians call the Old Testament is only one half of Jewish scripture. The Talmud is the other half, and it speaks quite derisively of Christians, usually in coded terms because it was at one time dangerous to say such things, but the references are there. I am ashamed and disgusted by the references to Christians and to Christ which are in the Talmud.
And yes, I have read the attempts to say that the figure referenced in the Talmud is not our Jesus, but those arguments fall quite flat when researched more fully.

 

[Woodsy]

I dare anyone to re-read the book of Jeremiah and not imagine that today the Prophetic author would be called a self-hating Jew and the book would likely be banned as anti-semitic. It's an amazing book and a stunning call to repentance.

 

[PilgrimToChrist]

Liturgy and prayers have changed many times throughout the ages.

That is true. There are a diversity of Rites in the Church that express the Liturgy in different ways. They are all reflections of the Heavenly Liturgy. There is cross-pollination -- the Kyrie was originally from the East (Jerusalem, IIRC) and then adopted in the West (and for a time, I understand, it was in Latin in the West instead of Greek). In what we call the traditional (<1970) Roman Rite, many of the flourishes in the prayers comes from the Gallican liturgy (the French always had to make everything fancy...) whereas the earlier Roman Rite was much more barren and straight-forward.

So yes, there are a diversity of expressions of the same Liturgy, of the same Faith. The theology behind the Liturgy must remain the same, even when the Liturgy changes naturally (organic development). There are better and worse expressions of the same Faith, as greater or lesser importance is placed on the Liturgy and parts get expressed more clearly and more beautifully or fall into disuse and end up vestiges. But Liturgy is, in its essence, not something that can be changed by decree. When it does, as it has periodically, even slight changes have caused serious controversy until it can be proven that it expresses the same faith as before the change but just in a better way.

This reflects the fact that humankind grows in revelation and understanding of God

You are bordering on heresy here so watch your step. Your sentence can be read in an orthodox fashion, that we grow in our understanding of revelation; or it can be read in a heretical fashion, that God reveals more and more as time goes on or even contradicts what has been taught before. Public revelation is something that ended with the death of the last Apostle, St. John. The Deposit of Faith is closed. Nothing can be added or taken away from this Deposit. We are simply to transmit it from one generation to another.

Therefore, brethren, stand fast; and hold the traditions which you have learned, whether by word, or by our epistle.

...contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints.

It is true that we slowly grow in our understanding of this truth. For example, I am currently in a discussion on Christology and the development of the early Church Councils (esp. Ephesus and Chalcedon) in an effort against a sort of crypto-neo-Nestorianism. The words we use to describe the Trinity and Christ evolved, that does not mean that the Truth of the Trinity or of Christ evolved. The Truth was already there, already given to us, it was already contained within the Deposit of Faith, it just had to be made clear by scraping off the barnacles of heresy and confusion.

(and also the fact that each generation has its own wonderful testimony of God's work in their lives).

Which is personal and private and unrelated to the Liturgy, which is part of the public faith and the foundation of our religion. Private revelation and experience can be very helpful to individuals, I have learned much from the spiritual experiences of the saints, but they are not on the same level as the Bible or the Liturgy.

And the Holy Spirit is moving on many Christians, both Catholic and non-Catholic, to an increased understanding of God's heart of love towards the Jewish people--and of how we can be better conduits of that love.

Exactly -- by converting them!

If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh [ie. Jews], and may save some of them. For if the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
...
The branches [Jews] were broken off .. because of unbelief....
...
See then the goodness and the severity of God: towards them indeed that are fallen, the severity; but towards thee, the goodness of God, if thou abide in goodness, otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the wild olive tree, which is natural to thee; and, contrary to nature, were grafted into the good olive tree; how much more shall they that are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not have you ignorant, brethren, of this mystery, (lest you should be wise in your own conceits), that blindness in part has happened in Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles should come in. And so all Israel should be saved...

"All Israel" means "all of the elect" -- Jew and Gentile. St. Paul explained this earlier in the same epistle:

Not as though the word of God hath miscarried. For all are not Israelites that are of Israel: Neither are all they that are the seed of Abraham, children; but in Isaac shall thy seed be called: That is to say, not they that are the children of the flesh, are the children of God; but they, that are the children of the promise, are accounted for the seed.

The Jews are blind, veiled from the Truth of Christ, and lost in darkness. It is our God-given duty to preach the Gospel to them and pray that they be converted to Christ and so be saved.

[T]heir [Jews'] senses were made dull. For, until this present day, the selfsame veil, in the reading of the old testament, remaineth not taken away (because in Christ it is made void). But even until this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart. But when they shall be converted to the Lord, the veil shall be taken away[/]

We show our love and concern by praying for the conversion of the Jews.

Let us pray also for the (disbelieving) Jews, that our God and Lord take away the veil from their heart; that also they [will] recognize Jesus Christ, our Lord.

(Priest: "Let us pray", Deacon: "Let us kneel", Subdeacon: "Arise")

All-powerful [and] everlasting God, who even now the (disbelieving) Jews your mercy does not turn away: hear our prayer, that for those people [their] blindness [shall be] removed; that [they may] realize your Truth and Light, who is Christ, [that] they [may be] delivered from darkness. Through the same our Lord Jesus Christ, your Son, who with Thee liveth and reigneth in the unity of the Holy Spirit, God; for ever and ever. Amen.

(The word "perfidis"/"perfidiam" (disbelieving, unfaithful) was removed in 1960 because its similarity to the much harsher English word "perfidy"/"perfidous" (treacherous, treasonous) was cause of scandal. Thus even a one-word change requires a serious issue and no change of the underlying theology.)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I dare anyone to re-read the book of Jeremiah and not imagine that today the Prophetic author would be called a self-hating Jew and the book would likely be banned as anti-semitic. It's an amazing book and a stunning call to repentance.

I agree!

Heck read whats said about the historian Norm Finkelstein.

When he wrote on the history of the Israel Palestine conflict he was viciously attacked. In fact, Allen Dershowitz was going to sue De Paul
University if they gave Finkelstein tenure. Why? Because Finkelstein exposed Dershowitz's book, A Case for Israel, as fraudulent and plagiarized.

Jim

 

[Ivy]

You are bordering on heresy here so watch your step. Your sentence can be read in an orthodox fashion, that we grow in our understanding of revelation; or it can be read in a heretical fashion, that God reveals more and more as time goes on or even contradicts what has been taught before. Public revelation is something that ended with the death of the last Apostle, St. John. The Deposit of Faith is closed. Nothing can be added or taken away from this Deposit. We are simply to transmit it from one generation to another.





It is true that we slowly grow in our understanding of this truth. The Truth was already there, already given to us, it was already contained within the Deposit of Faith, it just had to be made clear by scraping off the barnacles of heresy and confusion.


The Jews are blind, veiled from the Truth of Christ, and lost in darkness. It is our God-given duty to preach the Gospel to them and pray that they be converted to Christ and so be saved.

Young Miss,

It is you who need to watch your step when you a) admonish people old enough to be your parents and b) look down your self-righteous little nose at your Jewish forebearers in faith.

Everyone knows that all the truth is there, but that we all as the human race continue to grow in our understanding and articulation of those truths. You are not the first person to figure this out, hate to break it to you.

You seem like a very bright and intelligent person. Hopefully you will add humility and respect to your other good traits as the years go on.

Regards,
Ivy

 

[zhilan]

Ivy, do you realize you are attacking anyone who stands up for the prayers of the church, even though pretty much everyone who has been has laid out historical and theological reasons, and instead you are responding by saying we shouldn't argue because of our age - if age is the issue then message boards aren't the place to be hanging out. I understand Contra is your friend, but we are not attacking him, but rather defending our churches (both Catholic and Orthodox) and defending our Saints.

I understand the Jews have had terrible things done to them - that doesn't mean they are above reproach. There is no excuse for the way they have been treated throughout history, but again that doesn't mean they can't be criticized or that we shouldn't pray they come to Christ. It is possible to be both a victim and wrong....

 

[Woodsy]

I understand the Jews have had terrible things done to them - that doesn't mean they are above reproach. There is no excuse for the way they have been treated throughout history, but again that doesn't mean they can't be criticized or that we shouldn't pray they come to Christ. It is possible to be both a victim and wrong....

Amen to this.
And just because the Church has historically wronged Jews does not give modern day Jews the right to dictate Church doctrine or practice.

 

[Woodsy]

I agree!

Heck read whats said about the historian Norm Finkelstein.

When he wrote on the history of the Israel Palestine conflict he was viciously attacked. In fact, Allen Dershowitz was going to sue De Paul
University if they gave Finkelstein tenure. Why? Because Finkelstein exposed Dershowitz's book, A Case for Israel, as fraudulent and plagiarized.

Jim

I highly recommend the writings and lectures of Norman Finkelstein. He has been demonized by many, but his writings and his sources are impeccable. One can support Israel while also calling for it to change its attitudes and practices towards Palestinians (and Christians, though that is not Finkelstein's focus).

 

[b&wpac4]

It is disingenuous at best to ignore the fact that what Christians call the Old Testament is only one half of Jewish scripture. The Talmud is the other half, and it speaks quite derisively of Christians, usually in coded terms because it was at one time dangerous to say such things, but the references are there. I am ashamed and disgusted by the references to Christians and to Christ which are in the Talmud.
And yes, I have read the attempts to say that the figure referenced in the Talmud is not our Jesus, but those arguments fall quite flat when researched more fully.

I wasn't thinking of the Talmud, as I don't usually associate it with the word scripture. Suggesting I was "disingenuous at best" is a bit of a flame though, isn't it?

At the time the Talmud was written, I suspect the Jews felt as if they were being persecuted by Christians, and wrote ill of them and Jesus. It's no shock that people like to write bad things about those they dislike.

I saw that you were disgusted by suggestions that Gentiles had animal souls and the like. I will tell you that I find those statements to be pretty horrific. I wouldn't believe such statements, nor would I follow anybody who made them.