Catholics pray for 'Jews' conversion'

Michie

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Vatican spokesman: Good Friday liturgy was an error and will be rectified.


ROME – On Good Friday, two days before Easter, a prayer titled “Let us Pray for the Conversion of the Jews” was recited in Latin by traditionalist Catholic congregations in Italy, plus 16 sections of the Society of Saint Pius.

The ultra-conservative society, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI last year, has yet to be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, because of its refusal to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

In 2007, in an effort to bring the traditionalist elements of the Church back into the fold, Benedict issued a “Motu Proprio” declaration allowing wider use of the 1962, pre-Vatican II Roman Missal containing this prayer, which was previously restricted to small groups. Three years ago only 30 Italian churches were affected by that decision, as opposed to the 118 that regularly use the liturgy today.

Continued- http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=172382
 

PilgrimToChrist

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The prayer for the Jews has been changed a few different times in the past 100 years because it's been seen as "offensive".

Issues with the article:

The ultra-conservative society, whose excommunication was lifted by Pope Benedict XVI last year, has yet to be fully reintegrated into the Catholic Church, because of its refusal to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.
The SSPX was not excommunicated -- organizations cannot be excommunicated, people can be. The four bishops who were consecrated against the express will of Pope John Paul II were excommunicated, along with Abp Lefebvre who founded the society and consecrated the bishops. The excommunications of the bishops, as individuals, have been lifted. It did not effect the canonical status of the Society.

"Refused to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council" is a problematic statement as well. The question of what the reforms even are has been problematic over the past 40 years. Certainly, they are not as radical as the "spirit of Vatican II" people want to make them out to be. The NO Mass is not directly a result of Vatican II, meaning that it purports to follow the reforms suggested by the Council, but the second of two Missals produced. The first, the 1965, was not ideal (or even really better than the 1962) but the 1970 was a practical rewrite of the whole thing.

This formulation was a great step forward in comparison to the text of the old Latin prayer, which – although Pope John XXIII, who called the Second Vatican Council, had removed the expression “perfidious Jews” – still contained several objectionable expressions. These included an invocation to “remove the veil over the hearts” of Jews so that they may “recognize our Lord Jesus Christ,” and a reference to the “blindness” of the Jewish people.
1) The word perfidious is not contained within the traditional (pre-1960) prayer, the word perfidis is. The Latin word perfidis means "unbelieving" or "faithless", as it is usually translated in the prayer. The English word perfidious means "treacherous" or "treasonous", a much stronger and more offensive word. However, Pope John XXIII removed the troublesome word in 1960 and the rest of the prayer remained intact.

2) If these other "objectionable expressions" are troublesome, there is a serious problem -- they are straight from the Bible! That is what being a "sign of contradiction" is all about -- speaking the truth rather than worrying about what other people say.

Yes, we are praying for the conversion of the Jews so that they come to Jesus and the Church! Why would we not? Why is that offensive? Wouldn't it be more offensive if we didn't pray for the conversion of the Jews out of spite? We're Christians, of course we want to convert the world, we want to bring the world to salvation! Christ Himself said that, "Whoever does not know me, does not know my Father" (cf. Jn 8:19), "If God were your Father, you would indeed love me." (Jn 8:42)

---

In my parish, the 1960 prayer was used on Friday instead of the 2008 prayer. I assume this was not an intentional oversight...
 
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KatherineS

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Given the long history of anti-semitism, which Pope John Paul II acknowledged that many churchmen bear guilt, there is a strong pastoral case against a great need for a particular prayer for the conversion of the Jews. There have not been objections to a general prayer for "all who do not yet know Christ."

"Faithless" is also a strong accusation to throw at the Jewish people. There is great faith among the Jews in the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.

Anyway, SSPX acts against the Church, so it is not right to hold the Catholic Church accountable for these nut-cases. But in our own liturgy, we need to uphold the pastoral good.
 
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Woodsy

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to be perfectly frank wouldnt you be offended if they prayed for your conversion? I would be, I'd be thinking wheres the tolerance and respect for my beliefs?

Yes, I'm very offended by all the Liberals I know who wish that I'd come around to their way of thinking. Don't they respect the diversity which my opposing beliefs constitute?

Whatever.

I'm a Jew who converted to Catholicism. I think every Jew in the world would benefit personally from accepting Christ. I even pray for it.

And why in the world would you be offended if the Jews prayed for your conversion to Judaism? Silly.
 
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SemperFidelis

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to be perfectly frank wouldnt you be offended if they prayed for your conversion? I would be, I'd be thinking wheres the tolerance and respect for my beliefs?

Actually, no I wouldn't be bothered at all. If someone genuinely and honestly believed that conversion to their belief system was required for salvation, regardless of how erroneous that belief is, I would expect that they would pray for my conversion. At very least it would show that they had a sense of charity, regardless of the error of their belief.

And that is what this comes down to. People seem to be under the impression that a prayer for the conversion of the Jews is somehow indicative of either some kind of ill will towards the Jewish people, or at worst, out-and-out anti-semitism. It isn't. It is a true show of what Christian charity should be - a desire to see all mankind reach eternal salvation.

Blessings,
:crossrc:
Steve
 
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ContraMundum

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I'm also a Jew who converted to Christianity and those old prayers are very insulting to Jewish people and it has kept many of us out of the Church for centuries. I'd like to see other nationalities and religions get singled out- just to be consistant. I'd like to start with the Americans. Anyone for a new liturgical prayer denoucing the American people as the God-hating sinners that they are??? (You'd have a few friends in Fred Phelp's church.) Any takers on this? Thought not. I hope you see my point (and no, I don't advocate such unChristian sentiments in liturgy or in personal life- I'm just making a point)

However, the idea spouted by non-Jewish "traditionalists" that "it's in the Bible, so it must be ok" completely begs the question- can not the Bible be misused, and is this not a clear cut case of it being so?
 
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ContraMundum

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I'm a Jew who converted to Catholicism. I think every Jew in the world would benefit personally from accepting Christ. I even pray for it.

It's ok to pray for Jews to convert, but you don't have to make it a public point to call them sinners and unbelievers every year, do you? Would that not be a classic case of self-hatred?

And why in the world would you be offended if the Jews prayed for your conversion to Judaism? Silly.
Jews don't pray for the conversion of others to Judaism. The issue is not about praying for others to convert, it's about how you refer to them when you pray. It is a very easy thing to prove that the prayers against the Jews were not handed down by the Apostles, but rather come from the followers of early anti-semites like John Chrysostom who railed against the Jews with more ferocity than even medieval writers such as Luther did. Hence, why not just pray for the conversion of those who don't know Christ rather than single out the people of the Covenant and hurl names and insults at them?

Food for thought.
 
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Voegelin

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to be perfectly frank wouldnt you be offended if they prayed for your conversion?
No.

Wouldn't offend me at all. Even if I knew little of the faith, I would certainly know of Matthew 28:16-20 and Galatians 3:28.

I would be, I'd be thinking wheres the tolerance and respect for my beliefs?
Consider the other side. The Christian faith welcomes all. The Jewish faith is not so open. The Christian faith treats all men as equal. The Jewish faith, not so much.
 
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Ivy

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I'm inclined to think that the notion of "conversion" wouldn't be quite as offensive if some of the historical methods of obtaining conversions hadn't been so horrific and un-Christlike.

I also agree with ContraMundum on the idea of fairness and balance. If we single out one group by name and attach negative adjectives to them in a public prayer that is read by millions each year, we must do so for all other groups. Everyone is equally as sinful as everyone else, so we should equally verbally represent everyone.

And to make another kind of point about balance, we could just as easily apply positive adjectives to the Jewish people as negative. Human beings, including the ones portrayed in the Bible, are a mixture of both good and bad. Why include only negative, if we insist on singling them out? In addition, Jesus warned us against offering to take out the splinter from our brother's eye while neglecting the board in our own.
 
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Z

zhilan

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I've never understood why the Jews (or anyone) cares what people of different religions pray. I mean, it's not their religion, it's our religion, what do they care? Their scripture says some pretty offensive things about Jesus, but I don't see Christians demanding they change their Scriptures. And the Qur'an says things against Christians, but again I never hear Christians asking Muslims to change their prayers. Our Holy Week prayers are pretty...blunt shall we say....about the Jews role historically, but I guess we get spared since the media doesn't tend to focus on us as much as it does the CC.
 
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Tigg

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The Jews conversion is not the only conversion we pray for during the Good Friday liturgy.

We pray for atheists, pagans, Muslims, schematics and heretics...

:) Yep, and I am included in that list somewhere. I, for one, will never complain about anyone of any faith praying for me generally or even if anyone used my real name! All prayers welcomed by me! Even if the prayer should get it all wrong and label me vilely I will accept cause the good upon which the prayer is based alone is needed by me.

Ummmm, I guess and now a'days, would not be surprised if all, including me, who pray for all of us in this world, would be classed wrong etc. What a movement - to get God totally out of His creation...
 
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SemperFidelis

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I think it is also pertinent to remember which non-Christian groups the early Church would have had contact with.

In our Mass on Good Friday (celebrated according to the 1962 missal), the prayers (the Solemn Collects) cover, among other things, the conversion of the Jews, heretics and schismatics and the heathens/pagans.

I think the reason these groups are particularly singled out is because they were the main non-Christian groups the early Church would have had contact with. In the first few centuries, the muslims weren't around, and the Church would have had no idea of many of the other world religions outside of their geographical area, but they would have had ample contact with the Jews, the pagans (still being the official state religion for the first couple of centuries at least) and heretics and schismatics, of who there is a long list. It would seem only natural that these groups would therefore be prayed for specifically.

As an aside, here is the English text of the prayer said at our Church. Does anyone find this offensive?

"Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, so that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the saviour of all."

Blessings,
:crossrc:
Steve
 
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Rhamiel

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ContraMundum
It's ok to pray for Jews to convert, but you don't have to make it a public point to call them sinners and unbelievers every year, do you? Would that not be a classic case of self-hatred?
we are all sinners, we all need the saving power of Christ in our life
we prayed for the conversion of the Jews at my church, we also prayed for the conversion of those who do not believe in Christ and those who do not believe in God
 
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