Catholics only: Pope approves barring gay seminarians

[fragmentsofdreams]

umm, you have difficulty seperating objective and subjective huh?
If something is objectively immoral, its ok to "state it sweepingly" such as "homosexuality is always, always, always, evil!"

that comment is always true, regardless of the circumstances which may require more study and show some interesting things, etc.

No matter how you slice it, molesting kids, or homosexual acts are always going to be evil, and that means yes, they offend God.

Grouping all male on male sex acts as homosexuality and then using this grouping to ban those who admit to having homosexual attractions is a hasty generalization and a knee jerk reaction.

Also, a homosexual orientation is not evil in and of itself.

 

[Wolf Georges]

Homosexuality is intrinsically(sp?) evil. It is also a proven fact that homosexuals have a harder almost impossible time at staying celebate then straight people. Not saying it's easy for straight people either. But, the big difference is putting homos in seminaries and in the parishes is like putting straight men in convents to live with female nuns. Gays don't belong in the priesthood period. Gays in the priesthood is the reason we have such a low vocation turnout. That HAS been proven.

Homosexuality is a sin. As is any sex outside marriage or any sexual activity that a Priest would engage in. I'm not sure that your attempts to quantify the level of "evil" involved is accurate Biblically or Catechistically.
You speak of a lot of "proven facts" with nothing to back them up and then resort to the use of derogatory comments. This thread seems have deteriorated from a logical dialogue into a bigoted diatribe.

I'm done.

 

[geocajun]

Grouping all male on male sex acts as homosexuality and then using this grouping to ban those who admit to having homosexual attractions is a hasty generalization and a knee jerk reaction.

Also, a homosexual orientation is not evil in and of itself.

all male on male sexual acts are homosexual - what the heck do you think the word means? good grief...
homosexual orientation is disordered, and thus they are called to chastity. It is not ipso fact sinful to simply have the inclination, but that does not make it any less disordered.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

all male on male sexual acts are homosexual - what the heck do you think the word means? good grief...
homosexual orientation is disordered, and thus they are called to chastity. It is not ipso fact sinful to simply have the inclination, but that does not make it any less disordered.

The problem is taking this broad range of sexual activity and trying to associate it with the individual who says "I'm a homosexual person" (in the sense used by Church documents).

 

[geocajun]

The problem is taking this broad range of sexual activity and trying to associate it with the individual who says "I'm a homosexual person" (in the sense used by Church documents).

its very easy to associate the acts with the people doing the acts. What is so hard abuot that?

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

its very easy to associate the acts with the people doing the acts. What is so hard abuot that?

Because the person's statement does not imply any action. He could be celibate. He could be sleeping with a male partner. He could have gotten married and be sleeping with his wife.

 

[geocajun]

Because the person's statement does not imply any action. He could be celibate. He could be sleeping with a male partner. He could have gotten married and be sleeping with his wife.

oh I see what you're saying - you think the Church does not distinguish the act from the inclination? you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

oh I see what you're saying - you think the Church does not distinguish the act from the inclination? you couldn't be more wrong.

I am quite aware that it does. You seem to be the one blurring the distinction between inclination and act by pointing to the actions of some in support of a ban of those with an inclination.

 

[geocajun]

I am quite aware that it does. You seem to be the one blurring the distinction between inclination and act by pointing to the actions of some in support of a ban of those with an inclination.

umm, I don't believe a single post of mine has blurred act and inclination - however I do support the wisdom of the church if gays who have particularly strong desires are not allowed to be ordained.

 

[PetertheRock]

A really good article...

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=20565

Another good one...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041115-124042-2061r.htm

 

[PetertheRock]

http://catholiccitizens.org/press/pressview.asp?c=23002

THE ELEPHANT IN THE CHURCH
2/17/2005 10:21:00 PM
By Fr. Charles Dahlby

As a Catholic priest I have an investment in issues that affect the Church and the people of God and as a Christian I have an obligation to speak out. So let me make the following points as clearly as I can:





1. Most of the scandals and evils we see in the Church today are brought about primarily by homosexuality. Homosexuality is an objective moral disorder and unacceptable in the priesthood! For nearly two thousand years the teaching of the scripture, the magisterium, and Tradition, the three sources of revelation which give us truth, have all agreed. on homosexuality as an “abomination”! Only recently have Phil and Oprah and a few TV sitcoms disagreed. But God doesn’t change and Phil and Oprah won’t be on the throne to judge us!



2. Even though Church documents forbid the acceptance of homosexuals into the seminary and their ordination to the priesthood, those in authority have for years looked the other way, (Don’t ask, don’t tell) and homosexuals have flocked into the Church. Now they have positions of authority! They use this authority to protect and promote one another creating a distinct sub-culture that is rapidly becoming dominant. This sub-culture is the ideal homosexual environment. As a priest no one questions why you aren’t married. You get respect that you never earned. You have a target-rich environment, especially if you have a school, and if you slip up and get caught the civil authorities will not want to prosecute you because you’re a priest and, as we have seen, the Church will cover you, defend you, and may set you up in another parish or even another diocese so you can continue to prey on God’s people. A homosexual predator could not hope to find a more friendly and supportive environment than priesthood in the American Catholic Church!



3. The phrase “An elephant in the room” is used in group dynamics to mean that there is an issue of great importance that is being carefully avoided. The fact that the leadership of the Church so obviously refuses to deal honestly with homosexuality in its midst is a proof of its very powerful presence and authority. The effort expended on avoiding the obvious truth is evidence that gross ignorance cannot explain this blindness, only a conscious and premeditated effort to avoid what is so clear! Because it is done with awareness, it crosses the line from human weakness to genuine malignant evil!



4. To those who try to avoid the truth and hide behind some phony facade such as “addiction” or claim the answer will be found in a

good workshop on chastity are either fools or liars. Get a few old diocesan directories and a magic marker and go through them: How many heterosexual priests died of Aids? How many heterosexual priests have been pedophiles? How many heterosexual priests have been a source of sex scandals? (Only a small percentage of these ever reach the newspapers!) How much money have heterosexual priests cost the Church in lawsuits, pay-offs and cover-ups?



5. Many priests are aware of homosexuals in the priesthood, but they do not have the spirituality or the courage to confront the issue, so they lapse into a false charity that is nothing more than an excuse for doing nothing. (A response that Jesus did not allow!) Or they try to wash their hands of anything outside their parish boundaries. Also not allowed!)



Worst of all are those priests who know what evil is occurring, do nothing, and actually console themselves with the absurd idea that they are serving the Church. They have been formed by a seminary system that is designed to produce “churchmen” not saints. These neo-pharisees have confused the “means” with the “end” and have made the Church an idol! They have been perfectly willing to sacrifice truth, innocence and even the souls of Gods children as long as they keep up the facade. It is a sick and perverted illusion of love that would allow a priest to stand by silently while his brother destroys his own soul and the souls of others! These people must surely tremble at the thought of God’s judgment!



6. Yes, we love homosexuals! No, they are not evil and if they can carry the cross they have been given they can be great saints. But they have no place in the priesthood! Weak and evil leaders have sat around patting themselves on the back at how “enlightened” and “charitable” they have been in that stirring “Cor ad cor” they had with Father regarding his problem. While “Father” has a whole new target rich environment in another parish or another diocese! (After a little counseling of course!) And while the warmth of false charity fills them, more children are destroyed!



The people are asking, “When will it end?” It won’t! As long as we ignore the “elephant in the room”, as long as we prefer the comfort of false charity and absolutely refuse to deal with the truth, the scandal and the destruction of faith will continue. It will, in fact, get much worse! The “vocation crisis” is due in large part to the rise of the homosexual subculture in the Church. They have such power that Fr. Andrew Greeley has labeled them the “Lavender Mafia”! (A very appropriate term since the RICO laws are now being used against the Bishops of the Church!) Many young men who have stood up against the homosexual agenda in the seminaries have been labeled “homophobes” and “rigid” and treated as though they are the sick ones. If they somehow manage to get ordained and then discover the truth, they experience terrible frustration. They realize that they have no place to go to get it “fixed”! It does no good to go to the bishop when the bishop is the problem! The chancery staff, the Monsignori, were appointed by him.



For example, right now there is a young man in the seminary in St. Louis who will be ordained a priest soon. His picture and his story were front page news in the “Illinois Times,” He was the president of a gay and lesbian organization in Springfield, Illinois. Current Church teaching is that he should not have been admitted to the seminary and should not be ordained. His religious superior and the appropriate bishops are well aware of his orientation yet in complete contradiction to Church directives from Rome he continues and those who objected were labeled by his superior as “whiners”! (The Rev. Charles Bouchard, president of the Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis said: "I think straight priests and seminarians shouldn’t be whining. I just don’t think it’s a big deal.") The few priests foolish enough to speak openly about the scandal of homosexuality in the priesthood have soon learned that they will receive no help or support from anyone. The people don’t want to believe it. The newspapers won’t print it. The district attorney won’t prosecute. After all, his is an elected position, and the only thing more pointless than writing to the bishop is writing to “Rome”! Only in the area of pedophilia have we been able to enlist the aid of lawyers and multi-million dollar lawsuits to help keep some children a little safer. Only when they got hit in the purse did these bishops have a sudden attack of morality.



The bishop of Dallas took in a pervert from New England in the “pervert trades” and as a child was violated the pervert-priest was moved from one parish to another. The day after a multi-million dollar lawsuit was filed, the chancellor of the diocese began an investigation in all the parishes where this pervert had been assigned to “surface these poor damaged children”! Everyone, including a jury, were very aware that these men who supposedly stand “in persona Christi” didn’t give a damn about the “poor damaged children” until 180 million dollars got mentioned! The truth is, a few money-grubbing lawyers have done more to keep our children safe than the entire NCCB and all it’s committees! People simply don’t want to believe! I was once relating some information I had been given by two male prostitutes concerning their clergy clientele. The person I was speaking to said “How could you believe them if they are prostitutes?” I explained that people didn’t go to Douglas park late at night to pick up saints! I have always found more honesty in sinners than in false shepherds! Anyone who can read a newspaper knows the shame of the American Church is that legal liability has done more to save the “little ones” Jesus loves so much than the Christian morality of our bishops!



Now the priesthood has come to be considered the primary “gay profession.” We are the butt of jokes and presented as a pathetic caricature in the media. If the new document from Rome on homo- sexuality soon to be released leaves it up to the bishops or leaves loopholes in dealing with such a “complex issue,” then the floodgates

will swing wide. Heterosexual priests will not want to send fine young men from good families to the seminary. Priests will need to know with clarity their bishops policy on homosexuals in the seminary and the priesthood and be allowed to incardinate in a diocese where they can minister in obedience and good conscience. This could well be the issue that reveals the schism in the Church.

So, if anyone is interested.... The elephant in the room is - HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS/BISHOPS The solution is - GET THEM OUT!

 

[Auntie]

What America needs is a few more catagory 5 hurricanes, a couple of devastating earthquakes, a couple tsunamis, 4 or 5 major terrorist attacks.

Maybe then, good people will begin to understand.....maybe.

Until then, I'm sure we will all carry on as usual, deep into our own illusions.

 

[geocajun]

What America needs is a few more catagory 5 hurricanes, a couple of devastating earthquakes, a couple tsunamis, 4 or 5 major terrorist attacks.

Maybe then, good people will begin to understand.....maybe.

Until then, I'm sure we will all carry on as usual, deep into our own illusions.

what would happen then? would we become as smart as you?

 

[SolomonVII]

http://catholiccitizens.org/press/pressview.asp?c=23002

THE ELEPHANT IN THE CHURCH
2/17/2005 10:21:00 PM
By Fr. Charles Dahlby

As a Catholic priest I have an investment in issues that affect the Church and the people of God and as a Christian I have an obligation to speak out. So let me make the following points as clearly as I can:





1. Most of the scandals and evils we see in the Church today are brought about primarily by homosexuality. Homosexuality is an objective moral disorder and unacceptable in the priesthood! For nearly two thousand years the teaching of the scripture, the magisterium, and Tradition, the three sources of revelation which give us truth, have all agreed. on homosexuality as an “abomination”! Only recently have Phil and Oprah and a few TV sitcoms disagreed. But God doesn’t change and Phil and Oprah won’t be on the throne to judge us!



2. Even though Church documents forbid the acceptance of homosexuals into the seminary and their ordination to the priesthood, those in authority have for years looked the other way, (Don’t ask, don’t tell) and homosexuals have flocked into the Church. Now they have positions of authority! They use this authority to protect and promote one another creating a distinct sub-culture that is rapidly becoming dominant. This sub-culture is the ideal homosexual environment. As a priest no one questions why you aren’t married. You get respect that you never earned. You have a target-rich environment, especially if you have a school, and if you slip up and get caught the civil authorities will not want to prosecute you because you’re a priest and, as we have seen, the Church will cover you, defend you, and may set you up in another parish or even another diocese so you can continue to prey on God’s people. A homosexual predator could not hope to find a more friendly and supportive environment than priesthood in the American Catholic Church!



3. The phrase “An elephant in the room” is used in group dynamics to mean that there is an issue of great importance that is being carefully avoided. The fact that the leadership of the Church so obviously refuses to deal honestly with homosexuality in its midst is a proof of its very powerful presence and authority. The effort expended on avoiding the obvious truth is evidence that gross ignorance cannot explain this blindness, only a conscious and premeditated effort to avoid what is so clear! Because it is done with awareness, it crosses the line from human weakness to genuine malignant evil!



4. To those who try to avoid the truth and hide behind some phony facade such as “addiction” or claim the answer will be found in a

good workshop on chastity are either fools or liars. Get a few old diocesan directories and a magic marker and go through them: How many heterosexual priests died of Aids? How many heterosexual priests have been pedophiles? How many heterosexual priests have been a source of sex scandals? (Only a small percentage of these ever reach the newspapers!) How much money have heterosexual priests cost the Church in lawsuits, pay-offs and cover-ups?



5. Many priests are aware of homosexuals in the priesthood, but they do not have the spirituality or the courage to confront the issue, so they lapse into a false charity that is nothing more than an excuse for doing nothing. (A response that Jesus did not allow!) Or they try to wash their hands of anything outside their parish boundaries. Also not allowed!)



Worst of all are those priests who know what evil is occurring, do nothing, and actually console themselves with the absurd idea that they are serving the Church. They have been formed by a seminary system that is designed to produce “churchmen” not saints. These neo-pharisees have confused the “means” with the “end” and have made the Church an idol! They have been perfectly willing to sacrifice truth, innocence and even the souls of Gods children as long as they keep up the facade. It is a sick and perverted illusion of love that would allow a priest to stand by silently while his brother destroys his own soul and the souls of others! These people must surely tremble at the thought of God’s judgment!



6. Yes, we love homosexuals! No, they are not evil and if they can carry the cross they have been given they can be great saints. But they have no place in the priesthood! Weak and evil leaders have sat around patting themselves on the back at how “enlightened” and “charitable” they have been in that stirring “Cor ad cor” they had with Father regarding his problem. While “Father” has a whole new target rich environment in another parish or another diocese! (After a little counseling of course!) And while the warmth of false charity fills them, more children are destroyed!



The people are asking, “When will it end?” It won’t! As long as we ignore the “elephant in the room”, as long as we prefer the comfort of false charity and absolutely refuse to deal with the truth, the scandal and the destruction of faith will continue. It will, in fact, get much worse! The “vocation crisis” is due in large part to the rise of the homosexual subculture in the Church. They have such power that Fr. Andrew Greeley has labeled them the “Lavender Mafia”! (A very appropriate term since the RICO laws are now being used against the Bishops of the Church!) Many young men who have stood up against the homosexual agenda in the seminaries have been labeled “homophobes” and “rigid” and treated as though they are the sick ones. If they somehow manage to get ordained and then discover the truth, they experience terrible frustration. They realize that they have no place to go to get it “fixed”! It does no good to go to the bishop when the bishop is the problem! The chancery staff, the Monsignori, were appointed by him.



For example, right now there is a young man in the seminary in St. Louis who will be ordained a priest soon. His picture and his story were front page news in the “Illinois Times,” He was the president of a gay and lesbian organization in Springfield, Illinois. Current Church teaching is that he should not have been admitted to the seminary and should not be ordained. His religious superior and the appropriate bishops are well aware of his orientation yet in complete contradiction to Church directives from Rome he continues and those who objected were labeled by his superior as “whiners”! (The Rev. Charles Bouchard, president of the Aquinas Institute of Theology in St. Louis said: "I think straight priests and seminarians shouldn’t be whining. I just don’t think it’s a big deal.") The few priests foolish enough to speak openly about the scandal of homosexuality in the priesthood have soon learned that they will receive no help or support from anyone. The people don’t want to believe it. The newspapers won’t print it. The district attorney won’t prosecute. After all, his is an elected position, and the only thing more pointless than writing to the bishop is writing to “Rome”! Only in the area of pedophilia have we been able to enlist the aid of lawyers and multi-million dollar lawsuits to help keep some children a little safer. Only when they got hit in the purse did these bishops have a sudden attack of morality.



The bishop of Dallas took in a pervert from New England in the “pervert trades” and as a child was violated the pervert-priest was moved from one parish to another. The day after a multi-million dollar lawsuit was filed, the chancellor of the diocese began an investigation in all the parishes where this pervert had been assigned to “surface these poor damaged children”! Everyone, including a jury, were very aware that these men who supposedly stand “in persona Christi” didn’t give a damn about the “poor damaged children” until 180 million dollars got mentioned! The truth is, a few money-grubbing lawyers have done more to keep our children safe than the entire NCCB and all it’s committees! People simply don’t want to believe! I was once relating some information I had been given by two male prostitutes concerning their clergy clientele. The person I was speaking to said “How could you believe them if they are prostitutes?” I explained that people didn’t go to Douglas park late at night to pick up saints! I have always found more honesty in sinners than in false shepherds! Anyone who can read a newspaper knows the shame of the American Church is that legal liability has done more to save the “little ones” Jesus loves so much than the Christian morality of our bishops!



Now the priesthood has come to be considered the primary “gay profession.” We are the butt of jokes and presented as a pathetic caricature in the media. If the new document from Rome on homo- sexuality soon to be released leaves it up to the bishops or leaves loopholes in dealing with such a “complex issue,” then the floodgates

will swing wide. Heterosexual priests will not want to send fine young men from good families to the seminary. Priests will need to know with clarity their bishops policy on homosexuals in the seminary and the priesthood and be allowed to incardinate in a diocese where they can minister in obedience and good conscience. This could well be the issue that reveals the schism in the Church.

So, if anyone is interested.... The elephant in the room is - HOMOSEXUAL PRIESTS/BISHOPS The solution is - GET THEM OUT!

Good article.

You know, there is a case in Canada here, where Catholic brothers of the Christian Brothers in Newfoundland were exposed as homosexual peodophiles in an orphanage under their care.

The net result here on the other side of Canada was A Catholic high school affiliated with the Christian Brothers, but in no way affiliated wiht the abuse, was up for grabs in the lawsuit.

The parents had to pay to save thier school.

Maybe it is time that Catholics themselves, who are also victims of these crimes, lay a few lawsuits of our own, first against the offending priest, then against the individual authorities in the church who are covering for these base criminals, and finally against the state insitutions which are front and centre in covering up these crimes.

There is absolutely no reason for priests to be associated wiht gay advocacy organisations, whatever their affiliation. It is not as if Catholics are Anglicans, for example. It is not as if Catholic teaching on these matters is not abundantly clear.

It is time for a real Catholic Reformation, in which God's truth is not attacked, but in which we kick the bums out!

 

[Auntie]

what would happen then? would we become as smart as you?

What would happen when our illusions are ripped away?

We would then know the truth. What did you think?

 

[Globalnomad]

" 1. Most of the scandals and evils we see in the Church today are brought about primarily by homosexuality." (Fr. Charles Dalby's article, first line.)

Not true.

They are caused by (in this order of importance):

- the criminal cover-up of the sexual abuse scandal by the Church, and its shocking disregard for the victims;
- a system of recruitment and education to the priesthood that does not do enough to help the many sexually immature and repressed people that it attracts - and this group includes as many heteros as gays to begin with! - thus increasing, not decreasing, the chances of perversions;
- the GENERAL laxity about the requirement of celibacy... which would be OK if it was legally admitted (i.e. if priests could marry) but as it is, it favours schizophrenic and messed-up moralities, both in heteros and in gays.

Solution:
- punish the bishops who caused the scandal!!! Don't give the worst of them honorable posts in the Vatican!!!(I m referring to Bernard Law, of course)
- reform moral and sexual education and counselling in seminaries.

 

[Globalnomad]

Just a footnote.

Fr. Dahlby's opening statement is wrong on another level, too. "Most of the scandals and evils we see in the Church today..." - he should have said: the Church in the UNITED STATES!

In the rest of the world (except, to some extent, in Europe) the sexual abuse scandal is not even on the radar screen!

The evils and scandals that are the real problems worldwide are:

- The support and friendship that the Church appears to give to rapacious social elites (Latin America);

- The prohibition against the use of condoms even by married couples of whom one is HIV-positive (Africa)

- The activism against family planning programmes worldwide, saying that those who promote family planning are really promoting abortion (the opposite is actually true - one goal of all family planning programmes is to decrease abortions);

- The Vatican's repression of Asian theologians who are trying to express the truths of our Faith in ways that would enable us to better reach the Asian mentality.

But I suppose that over there in the US, these things don't interest people that much.

 

[geocajun]

its too bad we don't have any as smart as you working in the holy see huh globalnomad.

 

[jazzbird]

This thread is temporarily closed for staff review.