Catholics (2)

[Albion]

No, but that is how she describes herself.

Since I don't remember that, I'd love to have the chapter and verse.

Well, if all one had to do was do a repetition of Hail Mary throughout the whole Rosary then yeah, it would definitely be a series of useless prayers

It was quite a number of posts ago that I wrote what you are referring to here, but I don't think I called prayer "useless."

I did not deny this.

No one said you did. It was additional information "for what it's worth." That's what I write when it's only something that might be of passing interest.

 

[donfish06]

This is a subject that has been debated many times before, so I'm wondering if maybe don would answer this for us:

Is your objection mainly to 1) usage/terminology that the Bible doesn't permit, or instead 2) an erroneous belief that underlies the use?

The answer to 1) requires only that we make clear what the Bible means on this point, but the answer to 2) requires us to make clear what the belief actually is, as opposed to the suspicions that others hold about it.

While I do not believe that Jesus had any of Mary's blood (if he did he would have been a sinner) the main objection that I have is it is anti-scriptural and, in my belief, pagan to pray to the dead. There is not one instance of it in the Bible. And the whole idea of it is completely contrary to what God has commanded us. Like I have said, there is no precedence.

 

[Albion]

the main objection that I have is it is anti-scriptural and, in my belief, pagan to pray to the dead. There is not one instance of it in the Bible. And the whole idea of it is completely contrary to what God has commanded us. Like I have said, there is no precedence.

I appreciate the clarification, but I thought we were discussing the "Theotokos" and calling no man 'Father.'

 

[WisdomTree]

Personally, I find rote repetition of anything to be quite mind-numbing and not at all conducive to reflective thought.

As do I if that is all it is, plain repetition. However, the thing with the Hail Mary is the first we should really know the gospel before doing it (otherwise it would defeat the purpose), and second meditate on the mysteries of the day while saying your prayer. It is difficult at first since it seems like saying one thing while thinking another, but once you realize how the two are related, you're set!

Of course not everybody does the Rosary, nor do they have to, but it is a good and simple devotion to have.

Since I don't remember that, I'd love to have the chapter and verse.

My bad! It wasn't her referring to herself but the archangel Saint Gabriel who said it in the form of "favoured one!". Gospel of Luke 1:42.

It was quite a number of posts ago that I wrote what you are referring to here, but I don't think I called prayer "useless."

You didn't, I did. That was if all it was, was just plain repetition with no meaning. Same goes with just repeating the Psalms over and over again (like how the monks used to).

No one said you did. It was additional information "for what it's worth." That's what I write when it's only something that might be of passing interest.

Ah, in that case, thanks for the reference.

While I do not believe that Jesus had any of Mary's blood (if he did he would have been a sinner) the main objection that I have is it is anti-scriptural and, in my belief, pagan to pray to the dead. There is not one instance of it in the Bible. And the whole idea of it is completely contrary to what God has commanded us. Like I have said, there is no precedence.

How do you reconcile that with the Word of God becoming flesh? Catholics hold to the immaculate conception to explain that while the Orthodox don't even have the Original Sin to have a problem with this (their Ancestral Sin is similar, but I think it has something to do with the seed of man).

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I'm not subscribed to this one... and I don't know why.

 

[donfish06]

How do you reconcile that with the Word of God becoming flesh? Catholics hold to the immaculate conception to explain that while the Orthodox don't even have the Original Sin to have a problem with this (their Ancestral Sin is similar, but I think it has something to do with the seed of man).

I believe that God through the Holy Ghost created both the egg and the germ, and placed it in Mary. Do you find it funny that Jesus always referred to the "holy mother of God" as woman?

If you read my thread on original sin:
http://www.christianforums.com/t7785575/

You will see why I believe he had to come outside of intercourse. How do the orthodox not deal with original sin? The Bible says we are all "born in sin, shaped in iniquity"

 

[Albion]

My bad! It wasn't her referring to herself but the archangel Saint Gabriel who said it in the form of "favoured one!". Gospel of Luke 1:42.

Yes, I thought that was the only reference in scripture, but remember that it isn't clear that "full of grace" (if that is the translation used) doesn't necessarily mean she was totally in grace, and therefore sinless, as though she was some kind of spiritual version of a gas tank on an automobile. All (?) other translations render it as being in favor with God (as you note) which means something quite different. Still in all, the question had been about the propriety of praying to her, and I don't see how this verse suggests we ought to do that, regardless of the specific wording.

You didn't, I did. That was if all it was, was just plain repetition with no meaning. Same goes with just repeating the Psalms over and over again (like how the monks used to).

Ah. Then my memory is OK at least.

 

[saintboniface]

Where is the foundation for Mary worship found in the scriptures?

There is no foundation for Mary worship in the scripture or anywhere else for that matter. God alone is to be worshiped. Catholics do, however, revere and honor Mary and ask for her intercession (that is, ask her to pray to Jesus).

 

[Athanasias]

While I do not believe that Jesus had any of Mary's blood (if he did he would have been a sinner) the main objection that I have is it is anti-scriptural and, in my belief, pagan to pray to the dead. There is not one instance of it in the Bible. And the whole idea of it is completely contrary to what God has commanded us. Like I have said, there is no precedence.

Well it depends on what you mean by the term pray. If by the term pray you mean worship as Our Lord taught in the our Father then yes your right. But if you understanding of term pray is broader as most dictionaries and cultures are and mean by the term pray to mean "to ask one for their intercession" as Catholics have historically done, then this is not pagan at all but very very Jewish in nature! Read this as one Rabbi explains this Jewish practice of Jews asking departed saints or tzaddikim to intercede for those on earth. This is actually what Catholics have done and it makes sense given the Catholic Church is the fullfillment of Israel.

Is it okay to ask a deceased tzaddik to pray on my behalf? - Questions & Answers

 

[Albion]

There is no foundation for Mary worship in the scripture or anywhere else for that matter. God alone is to be worshiped. Catholics do, however, revere and honor Mary and ask for her intercession (that is, ask her to pray to Jesus).

We all appreciate the "revere and honor" point, but prayer to her is not simply "ask her to pray to Jesus."

That's the point of most objections when it comes to improper venerations of the Virgin.

 

[Albion]

dup

 

[saintboniface]

We all appreciate the "revere and honor" point, but prayer to her is not simply "ask her to pray to Jesus."

That's the point of most objections when it comes to improper venerations of the Virgin.

As you would probably agree, the original poster asked a non-sense question because there is no Catholic teaching that Mary should be worshiped. Its like asking: "Dear Catholics, what is the biblical basis for prohibiting the eating of garlic on Mondays?"

Now if there are objections to improper venerations of Mary, let those who object point to the teaching which they object to.

 

[Albion]

the original poster asked a non-sense question because there is no Catholic teaching that Mary should be worshiped...Now if there are objections to improper venerations of Mary, let those who object point to the teaching which they object to.

That has been done on various threads here on these forums, SB. However, the OP that you referred to addressed "Catholics" and asked about the (alleged) practices of Catholics. It wasn't asked what the official position of the Church itself is.

 

[saintboniface]

That has been done on various threads here on these forums, SB. However, the OP that you referred to addressed "Catholics" and asked about the (alleged) practices of Catholics. It wasn't asked what the official position of the Church itself is.

OK then, I guess I'll stay away from this post since it is directed to heretics, dissenters, or ignorant Catholics.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

As you would probably agree, the original poster asked a non-sense question because there is no Catholic teaching that Mary should be worshiped. Its like asking: "Dear Catholics, what is the biblical basis for prohibiting the eating of garlic on Mondays?"

Now if there are objections to improper venerations of Mary, let those who object point to the teaching which they object to.

Valid point.

That has been done on various threads here on these forums, SB. However, the OP that you referred to addressed "Catholics" and asked about the (alleged) practices of Catholics. It wasn't asked what the official position of the Church itself is.

There are those, a great number I would wager, in the Catholic Church that do hold the "official teaching" on this matter.

 

[Albion]

OK then, I guess I'll stay away from this post since it is directed to heretics, dissenters, or ignorant Catholics.

I don't know where you got that idea.

The OP clearly inquired of or about "Catholics" in general. I assume that they come in many forms, as with other denominations. If the writer had meant to ask something else--like, "What is the official Church position on this matter?" or "Why do some Catholics seem to get it wrong?"--it wasn't put that way in the OP.

 

[saintboniface]

I don't know where you got that idea.

The OP clearly inquired of or about "Catholics" in general. I assume that they come in many forms, as with other denominations. If the writer had meant to ask something else--like, "What is the official Church position on this matter?" or "Why do some Catholics seem to get it wrong?"--it wasn't put that way in the OP.

Catholics come in only two forms: faithful to the teachings of the Church or not faithful to the teachings of the Church. The latter are not faithful because they are heretics, dissenters, or because they are ignorant and don't even know what the Church teaches.