Albion and all,
Heres allegation 1 (not from anyone in this thread, necessarily
but an allegation nonetheless, and one I believe whose question raised this thread to be created in the first place): Catholic intercessional prayer to the saints is worship of false gods. There are other allegations, but heres the question to this thread: what scriptural basis is there for intercession of Mary?
First let me lead by saying that saint intercession is not something that can ever be eliminated from Catholicism, and from its view
Christianity itself. So attempting to save Catholics on the whole from this practice is certainly a waste of anyones time. It is not a disciplinary practice, as opposed to priest ordination involving celibacy (based on Pauls personal suggestion, of which he admitted he never heard any word from God on the subject), which could change in the future
as thats a discipline only. Catholics get their scripture from outside what is known as the Bible, which it calls tradition or traditional writings. These traditional scriptures contain more justification for saint and angel intercession than exist in the Bible. Many of these documents were written far earlier than anything in the New Testament, and documents found in the Dead Sea Scrolls have universally confirmed for scientists and historians that indeed the early Christian Jews must have had these documents, as the other Jews of their time did
from the very beginning. Now hold on
before you respond that doesnt make them the word of God, sit tight.
1. The Vatican library has every document available on record of the earliest stories coming from Judaism, and even before that the Mesopotamian religion, which is what Judaism stemmed from (Abraham came from Mesopotamia after all, thus Noah and the rest). It also contains all the documents that the early Christians and apostles (as well as Jesus) had at their disposal when they began to teach the very writings that exist in the Bible today. Thus, Catholics do not rely on the limited number of texts in the Bible for all its practices and teachings, nor for all of its understanding that may come from it. But nothing that it allows in teaching from tradition can be in conflict with the Bible either. So theres a difficulty in solving this dispute/disagreement (or whatever you want to call it), though it is possible. See, Catholic argument is not bound by the King James version of the Bible
and not by any Catholic translation either. It historically existed before both of these, as the Bible was compiled centuries after the Church was formed. It instead recognizes Hebrew texts in the original Hebrew language. Greek texts in the original Greek language and all the other languages of the world who carried on testimony of Jesus Christ.
2. The Catholic Church too recognizes individuals after the time of the Bible who had experiences and even performed miracles in Jesus name
long after the deaths of the apostles. It considers all Christians in the world to be disciples of Christ, able to access the same level of spirituality as the early disciples. Catholics do not believe that God popped up in the world at the time of Jesus and then disappeared into oblivion. It believes Jesus word to be true and living today, in that anyone who believes and asks in His name will even accomplish greater things than even He showed and will perform even greater miracles. The Church may even recognize those performing miracles as saints after their death, but it does not consider their list to be exclusive. A saint is something different than being gods. Instead, it refers to each of them as a child of God or collectively, children of God, which comes out of John 1, 2 and many other passages and letters that today remain in the New Testament. The term John (and any other figure who used it) uses comes from the Book of Enoch, which he had on hand, and Ill get to that in a sec.
3. From the Bible (King James Version included), it recognizes miracles of faith following the touching of articles of clothing of children of God that is beyond the placebo effect, a) just as the woman touched Jesus clothes and was healed, and b) just as Pauls clothes in Acts were carried to other communities for them to be healed by touching them as well. Catholics believe such touching is not bound exclusively to stories from the Bible. Catholics believe that it was the womans (who touched Jesus clothes) faith that healed her, but it was the miracle of the Holy Spirit that even allowed such a transaction (such that Jesus could feel it). Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit can enter any matter, living or non-living, at will and at anytime
even and especially if requested by any child of God in Jesus name. It believes that this Holy Spirit can pass into any material, even to transform the very nature of the matter. The Holy Spirit is believed to be the breath of God (as the Hebrew text in Genesis translates it), and with the Son (the Word) and the Father everything comes into being
even the very nature of objects we take for granted. And that God can change them at will, even will them out of existence
or into existence.
This may seem an odd miracle in modern times, but such is the nature of Christianity. How and why would Catholics believe this? Largely from the same Bible all Christians refer to. But what might be odder (by logical deduction) is to consider that an all-powerful God would have any struggle in accomplishing any such miracle. Catholics do not believe He has any problem transforming anything at will. If He says it is to be, then it will be. Period. It is only then humans that struggle with the concept from that point on
and these concepts are indeed challenging to many. But the doctrine of Catholicism has long been recognized (within its own Church) to need to remain fixed above any one individuals belief or unbelief if it is to last. So thats why its not going away.
4. The Biblical (King James too) reason such saints and angel intercessional prayers exist in the first place in Catholicism come from the prophecies prior to Jesus birth and His life itself, in that everything about His life, death and resurrection was planned and carried out perfectly and in order to the will of God, and so too are the stories as played out in the Bible, them being the Word of God. He was to be born into the house of David in the town of Bethlehem (which means house of bread), that He was laid in a manger by his mother (a feeding receptacle for sheep), that He called Himself the bread of life, that He commanded that everyone must eat (originally the term was to chew or to gnaw
as a sheep does) of the Son of Man or He has no life in him (and He lost many followers with this teaching
and still does today) and then He eased the teaching at the last supper with the bread and wine, with this is my body
and this is my blood. Catholics believe these predestined circumstances as defined in the Old and New Testament are based on the fact that Hebrews atoned for sin through animal sacrifice, of which they would eat after its slaughter
and what they would eat would become a part of them (the you are what you eat reality, that the molecules in the food we eat become the molecules that construct our bodies).
So in what may seem a meaningless event of Jesus mother interceding between the people and Jesus at the wedding, Catholics believe it too is part of the bigger picture, just as Mary laid Jesus in the manger, a feeding receptacle for sheep. She was the first to initiate the miracles. If Jesus hadnt stressed so many teachings about sheep, being the shepherd, as well as the sacrificial lamb, asking Peter to feed his sheep and so on, perhaps Catholics wouldnt take today that this is what the original gospel writers would have included in their texts
that every word was carefully chosen (ink and paper was in short supply in those days, so the written word needed to pack a deep punch). This is understood by expert theologians today and has been understood by Catholics throughout the centuries. Catholics do not believe that words of the gospels created a theme; rather, from the thousands of stories of Jesus time on the earth, the ones that were included needed to carry the proper message that the early Christians already believed. Marys intercession was clearly a part of this
in his life on earth. Catholics do not believe those in heaven are dead, so why should any such intercession cease?
Other Biblical evidence can be found in what I already referred to in the letters of the apostles and their references to discerning the spirit, references to scripture outside the Bible and to all that Christ taught about unity between man and God, and that unity between Christians in heaven and earth. But those passages will likely not clarify alone to anyone, as they are only pieces, remnants of that which was not included in the King James Bible. But for more in the King James version, seek out any reference in both the Old and New Testaments for the words saints or holy ones, as that has long been meant to mean those living in heaven (not dead). And then read Pauls teaching on life after death.
5. Non-King James scriptural writings have direct word for word explanation of why the intercession between angels and saints is important. The Book of Tobit was not included for the King James Bible. And Im not condemning this
just need to point out this fact to get to the next. It was set aside because Christians had no original Hebrew texts of the book. Everything had been translated and the originals lost. This didnt happen very often, but is a part of history. The false claim, however, was proposed that these were added (perhaps nefariously) later to fit some saint-worship agenda. The other books in this class were Maccabees, Sirach and others. However, history has proven this claim wrong with the Dead Sea Scrolls, where it is now evident (you wanted evidence) that such writings were originally in Hebrew and in the early Christian Jews hands. The Book of Tobit contains an in depth story into how the angel Raphael received Tobits prayer and delivered it to God. Its a beautiful story, and a shame it is not universally known. A fascinating story, perhaps giving insight into the workings of angels in our lives, as well as bad spirits also. Thus, this was considered scripture (the Word of God) by the apostles and early Christians. Archeologists have since confirmed this, what Catholics have been teachings for centuries. This was their scripture.
6. Other non-King James scriptural writings come from the Book of Enoch, which is not included in the Catholic Bible either (as its earliest originals were fragmented and unreadable). However, Paul referenced it in his letters and so too did Jude. Then, again, with the Dead Sea scrolls, this document has resurfaced (with almost complete text
some chapters gone and others broken
but its still a lot of reading), and gives further insight into the origins of saints and angels intercession. There is even circumstances of intercession by the prophet Enoch between the fallen angels and God, as Enoch is to deliver Gods word of punishment to them. Thats about as intercessional as it gets
even perhaps a bit spiritually dangerous. But all the while throughout the Book of Enoch, the angels interceded in many conversations between man and God. This was originally in Hebrew, but was only eliminated by the Scribes and Pharisees about 50-100 before the birth of Christ. But Jude, a relative of Jesus, and all the other apostles had these writings still on hand, and some are even referenced in the King James version of the Bible. The point of this evidence is that Catholics, while not having the actual texts, were able to carry on through tradition the stories and reasoning of all these practices and more
and still goes on today.
Thus, if they were able to preserve such ancient teachings as Enoch through tradition, how much harder would it have been to preserve the practices of the early Christians regarding intercessional prayer? I dont think hard at all. Especially since the Vatican still contains the scriptural books that it has taught for centuries
again, that were not included in the King James version due to the belief that they simply didnt exist in the time of Christ. But this has been proven to be wrong today, via the Dead Sea Scrolls.
7. While non-Catholics may not know what it is that was passed down from Pope to Pope to Pope over the millennia, I do not believe that it should be questioned that the Catholic Church in the same should not know what they passed down to themselves. There was never a period in the Catholic Churchs history that was not documented. Even in the dark ages, scholars in the Catholic Church were documenting. It is fully aware of every council it brought together, it is fully aware of every practice and mistake that has been condoned or condemned, right or wrong, schism or whatever
and if the Catholic Church today claims that intercessionary prayer has been practiced in its walls from today back to early Christianity, then I claim that coupled with that
if the two earliest Christian religions (Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox) both pray intercessionally today and have for as long as they both recall, then rest assured
it is a part of the origins of Christianity. After all, they have scripture that refers to it being done
without any the slightest consideration of it being immoral.
So is it wrong, evil, etc. today? Again, from my first one or two sentence comment
how could it be any more wrong than asking a living brother or sister in Christ to pray for you? There is no worship involved. What about all the Christians from Christ to date (Enoch, Peter, John, etc.) who conversed/interceded with the angels and saints
are they wrong, in hell? Jesus said, you judge by appearances, but I judge no one. Are Christians not to be called children of God, and not to follow in the footsteps of Christ and the apostles? Arent these really judgments and/or questions cast to Catholics only by appearances?
I have given evidence above
at least an introductory look, of which anyone could continue to look further into. We are not in the Dark Ages anymore
and not just coming out of them either. We are in the information age
so, all, please do consider accessing as much information as can be found on this. And never forget that we are all one body of Christ.
God bless.
