Catholicism wrong?

[Lisa0315]

Hi AS, I am not sure what the "how so?" refers to exactly. If you could clarify, I will try to answer. :_




What was it Lisa said that made you say this?



Peace

We were talking about infant baptism, those who do not have the mental capacity to become Christians, and those who have not heard the gospel. I said that God will not judge these. He agreed with me.

BTW, I know there are a lot of posts, but just so you know what is going on...We are having an unusual and exceptional conversation that might not be typically allowed in OBOB. The rules of course are that non-Catholics may ask questions but cannot debate here. We are having a discussion that may be slightly borderline on that, but two mods (one of which was not acting in a mod capacity at the time) have given their okay as long as we continue to be very, very nice about it. So, I will say to you what I have said to the others. If for any reason, you feel that I am out of line or being offensive, just say the word. I will apologize and edit immediately. My status here is a guest and I am here to learn about your beliefs and to tell my Catholic friends about my own beliefs so that we can discuss our differences. So, we have kind of special permission but I do not want to abuse that in any way.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Thank you kindly.

And let us know what the research shows.

Absolutely. I hope to get to that tonight.

 

[Lisa0315]

Please understand that what I am about to share, I learned the hard way . . . as I said above, been there, done that . . .

The Holy Spirit is GOD Himself. One does not muster up God. He is not at our beck and call . . .

We do not sing or clap or shout until we "feel" the spirit . . that is not God's way.

I am going to be very honest with you . . I want you to resist the urge to toss aside what I am about to say . . for it is, indeed, the truth.


What you are doing when you spend so much time in singing, clapping, shouting, and especially when the singing involves repetitive choruses, over and over and over again, is simply this . .

You are inducing an altered state of consciousness. Nothing more.

This altered state of conscousness makes one highly suggestable and what messages are given go deep into your subconcious with great force, so you are probably feeling a great deal of resistance to my words right now.

That is not the Holy Spirit putting up red flags . . that is what was introduced into your subconscious under such highly suggestable states.

My sister tried to tell me this years ago . . I didn't believe her either . . it wasn't until God brought me out of a congregation which employed music like this, and on my journey into the Catholic Church (which lasted 3 years) I discovered the truth of this. Did they do this understanding what they were doing? Absolutely not. I knew the pastor and his family well. They were the most wonderful people. But this was happening none-the-less.

In such a highly suggestable state, one 'feels' the spirit. But this simply confuses things, and it can become impossible to distinguish between the real and the manipulated expereinces.

That feeling you are wanting, is not what God wants you to be seeking. He wants you to grow in spiritual maturity, and to do this there is only one way .. to deny self, take up one's cross, and follow Him.

Holding onto, and desiring such emotional experiences will only hold us back in our growth into spritual maturity.

Feelings, and desiring experiences of the spirit, are never supposed to be our guide in the Christian life . . . in fact, the great saints of old learned to greatly distrust the seeking and desiring of such experiences.


I hope that what I shared above will be helpful to you.


Peace

You know? I felt the same way about the charismatic movement. I have several friends who believe in speaking in tongues, praying in tongues, etc. We got into lunchtime discussions about it and I really laid into them about it. From their description of their services, I was really, really concerned that the attraction of the excitement was what drew them, rather than true worship of God. Anyway, later I prayed about it just as I did about the whole angst I felt against Catholicism, and you know what? God told me to leave it alone. It serves a purpose. Those are the exact words that were put into my mind. "It serves a purpose." Now, I do not know if that means it is of God, or it is not of God, but still has a purpose in His plan, but I don't need to know that. I just need to know that it is not for me to judge.

So, at least for myself, I am trying very hard to not think in terms of "better" or "worse" when it comes to churches. I am really coming to believe that while the splits may not be God's perfect will, they may be part of His conditional will. We have messed a lot of things up, but all things still work to the Glory of God.

Lisa

 

[WarriorAngel]

Anyway, later I prayed about it just as I did about the whole angst I felt against Catholicism, and you know what? God told me to leave it alone. It serves a purpose.

It is hard to discern.
We have no way of knowing.... of which spirit.

Pray more for the answer of why.
Because if you feel it is 'wrong' and your mind says it isnt.....then you should keep praying.

Then it will be shown to you why or what....etc.


IMO.......but I usually pray and wait and it comes to me eventually. It is hard to decipher who would say what. Peace!

 

[Lisa0315]

It is hard to discern.
We have no way of knowing.... of which spirit.

Pray more for the answer of why.
Because if you feel it is 'wrong' and your mind says it isnt.....then you should keep praying.

Then it will be shown to you why or what....etc.


IMO.......but I usually pray and wait and it comes to me eventually. It is hard to decipher who would say what. Peace!

No, I had the distinct impression that it was not for me to know the why, just that it is for a purpose and that I was to leave it alone (Charismatic movment). With Catholicism, I was deeply burdened. You have to understand that we are taught some pretty negative things about Catholics. Having been raised with it, having seen some pretty negative things in Baptist churches growing up, turning away from all of it because of the negativity, I rentered fundementalism with a slightly different mindset from my brothers and sisters there. I agree with doctrine. I do not always agree with the outward view. The church I attend happens to be less negative towards other denominations and even, less negative towards Catholics, but there is still a certain attitude there that I disagree with. Now, because of this, and also because of the self-destructive anger I had displayed here in this forum against Catholics, I turned to the only One who could decipher the situation for me. Number one, what attitude should I have towards Catholics? Prayer and Scripture are to be used as a mirror. That mirror does not show the faults of others, but our own faults. So, I asked God to show me my fault in regards to Catholics. Are Catholics as "bad" as I had been taught? The answer was a definitive "No!". There are still doctrinal issues which is why I am here with an open mind. I do not expect to change anyone's point of view here, but I do seek deeper understanding. I also do not expect to change my own doctrine. I think I am just looking for common ground.

In my mind, I see us all at the Lamb's Supper laughing, and going, "Can you believe I thought that?" or "I was way wrong on that!" or "You were definitely right on that one!" Only then, will we have perfect understanding, perfect doctrine, and perfect love for one another. Now, that is pure speculation on my part of course. There may not be anything like that but I do believe it will be a joyful celebration.

Ironically, this thread was started by a young man who is also seeking. What is the right way? Who is right? His sincere effort to worship God in the "correct" manner should be a lesson to all of us. I think the best way that we can possibly honor and worship God is by finding that common ground, even agreeing to disagree, but with full fellowship and love in our hearts. I feel greatly blessed to have been a part of this and I feel the hand of God on this discussion. (Oops, there goes my feelings again!)

Anyway, there I go writing a book. This whole experience which is really just getting started has been very uplifting to me. I just wanted to tell all of you that.

Lisa

 

[AureateDawn]

Quick question (I'll read the recent discussion I've missed tomorrow) - do Catholics belive in Grace alone or Grace AND Works?

 

[epiclesis]

grace, through faith.

works come automatic with our faith.

 

[WarriorAngel]

No, I had the distinct impression that it was not for me to know the why, just that it is for a purpose and that I was to leave it alone (Charismatic movment). With Catholicism, I was deeply burdened. You have to understand that we are taught some pretty negative things about Catholics. Having been raised with it, having seen some pretty negative things in Baptist churches growing up, turning away from all of it because of the negativity, I rentered fundementalism with a slightly different mindset from my brothers and sisters there. I agree with doctrine. I do not always agree with the outward view. The church I attend happens to be less negative towards other denominations and even, less negative towards Catholics, but there is still a certain attitude there that I disagree with. Now, because of this, and also because of the self-destructive anger I had displayed here in this forum against Catholics, I turned to the only One who could decipher the situation for me. Number one, what attitude should I have towards Catholics? Prayer and Scripture are to be used as a mirror. That mirror does not show the faults of others, but our own faults. So, I asked God to show me my fault in regards to Catholics. Are Catholics as "bad" as I had been taught? The answer was a definitive "No!".

God could be leading you here... to find the answers. I dont know. But sometimes a gentle tug can really be Him pushing us towards a real understanding.

There are still doctrinal issues which is why I am here with an open mind. I do not expect to change anyone's point of view here, but I do seek deeper understanding. I also do not expect to change my own doctrine. I think I am just looking for common ground.

Yes, I have found many against Catholicism. BUT it is a rather complicated religion that is so broad that it takes time to grasp it all.
As a cradle Catholic, I am STILL and always learning.
I think we never stop learning, and when we are finished we have all the answers,.... but we are in Heaven at that point.
You should ask NewMan99 alot of questions....
He has the 'Catholic/Protestant speak ease' language.

In my mind, I see us all at the Lamb's Supper laughing, and going, "Can you believe I thought that?" or "I was way wrong on that!" or "You were definitely right on that one!" Only then, will we have perfect understanding, perfect doctrine, and perfect love for one another. Now, that is pure speculation on my part of course. There may not be anything like that but I do believe it will be a joyful celebration.

A pal of mine, my old boss who helped me to go back down the path to Catholicism [after 7 years of lukewarmness] Said to me once.."I don't see the Lord holding up cue cards when we die...and saying 'Oh yea, Methodist...sorry' and pushing a button.
Its more than that.....its how we love."

The biggest difference we have is the the sacraments that aid us in grace to salvation.

Protestants also have the means to salvation, but it is more difficult. The sacraments given by Christ help pave the way for those who have faith in those doctrines....IE, it makes the path altho narrow, a tad bit easier to walk.

Ironically, this thread was started by a young man who is also seeking. What is the right way? Who is right? His sincere effort to worship God in the "correct" manner should be a lesson to all of us. I think the best way that we can possibly honor and worship God is by finding that common ground, even agreeing to disagree, but with full fellowship and love in our hearts. I feel greatly blessed to have been a part of this and I feel the hand of God on this discussion. (Oops, there goes my feelings again!)

AS I said earlier, He gently pushes us. Perhaps He wishes you to find out what He has given the ancient Church.
Perhaps you will find the answers that you think are divisive really arent at all what you were taught.........and perhaps that misunderstandings of the divisions will dissolve.

Anyway, there I go writing a book. This whole experience which is really just getting started has been very uplifting to me. I just wanted to tell all of you that.

Lisa

You should start a new thread with all the questions.
Questions you think perhaps you worry about within Catholicism. Maybe you will understand us better.
HUGS!

 

[Lisa0315]

God could be leading you here... to find the answers. I dont know. But sometimes a gentle tug can really be Him pushing us towards a real understanding.



Yes, I have found many against Catholicism. BUT it is a rather complicated religion that is so broad that it takes time to grasp it all.
As a cradle Catholic, I am STILL and always learning.
I think we never stop learning, and when we are finished we have all the answers,.... but we are in Heaven at that point.
You should ask NewMan99 alot of questions....
He has the 'Catholic/Protestant speak ease' language.



A pal of mine, my old boss who helped me to go back down the path to Catholicism [after 7 years of lukewarmness] Said to me once.."I don't see the Lord holding up cue cards when we die...and saying 'Oh yea, Methodist...sorry' and pushing a button.
Its more than that.....its how we love."

The biggest difference we have is the the sacraments that aid us in grace to salvation.

Protestants also have the means to salvation, but it is more difficult. The sacraments given by Christ help pave the way for those who have faith in those doctrines....IE, it makes the path altho narrow, a tad bit easier to walk.



AS I said earlier, He gently pushes us. Perhaps He wishes you to find out what He has given the ancient Church.
Perhaps you will find the answers that you think are divisive really arent at all what you were taught.........and perhaps that misunderstandings of the divisions will dissolve.



You should start a new thread with all the questions.
Questions you think perhaps you worry about within Catholicism. Maybe you will understand us better.
HUGS!

Well, I would start a new thread, but I couldn't do it here, and the mods feel that this discussion will get torn up somewhere else. Just me and the rest of you, we will do fine. Bring in other non-Catholics. It might get ugly, I think is the point. Then, what would we learn? Just more divisiveness.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

Good article to read here-

http://www.christianforums.com/t2972869-i-love-this-article-wanted-to-share-for-edification-10-reasons-to-be-catholic.html

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Michie again.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Well, I would start a new thread, but I couldn't do it here, and the mods feel that this discussion will get torn up somewhere else. Just me and the rest of you, we will do fine. Bring in other non-Catholics. It might get ugly, I think is the point. Then, what would we learn? Just more divisiveness.

[jokingly]Nah, not in GT [general theology] [/jokingly]

Ok, if you do not wish to create a new thread, which would help your OWN certain questions get answered....then fire away.

What were you taught that concerns you about Catholicism.

BTW, Michie has a gr8 post that Ignatius quoted.

 

[Lisa0315]

[jokingly]Nah, not in GT [general theology] [/jokingly]

Ok, if you do not wish to create a new thread, which would help your OWN certain questions get answered....then fire away.

What were you taught that concerns you about Catholicism.

BTW, Michie has a gr8 post that Ignatius quoted.

I have been taught that Catholics are not saved because they believe in a works based salvation rather than faith based. I have been taught that Catholics worship Mary. I have been taught that the use of icons, prayer beads are also idolotry. I have been taught that confessing to another human being does not abolish sin. Many, many other things that I would rather not say because they are worse than you can imagine. Let me just say that there is some speculation in the role that the Catholic church will play in end times.

I am convinced that none of this is true. However, the one issue that I still have is the doctrine of infallibility. I cannot get past that one. Every Catholic that I have talked with is convinced that the Catholic church has never made an error. What I mean by this is official Catholic doctrine, not that individuals within the church have not taught error or practiced error.

Oh, and another one that still bothers me. I have heard many references to the co-redemtress doctrine of Mary. There may be others but that is all that I can think of right now.

Lisa

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have been taught that Catholics are not saved because they believe in a works based salvation rather than faith based.

WE already covered that...right?

I have been taught that Catholics worship Mary. I have been taught that the use of icons, prayer beads are also idolotry.

Did Jesus honor His Mother? [4th Commandment] Are we to imitate Jesus?
Did Jesus create His own Mother?
IF you were to create your own Mother...would you make her perfect?
Nevertheless..Catholics do not worship Mary. WE seek the Lord's mother for her intercessory power...and we seek her love to guide us fully to understand Her Son. [Difficult to explain, but it does happen...for I am a product of her guidance]
Prayer beads are meditative, in which we are directed to concentrate on the Lord.
And on scripture.
Icons and such ~ are also ancient, [due to the inability to own camera's] the ancients felt it due honor to erect a statue/icon for rememberance of Saints who martyred or lived piously and are equated to any pictures, or memorials we have of family.
They also are NOT worshipped.

I have been taught that confessing to another human being does not abolish sin.

1. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
2. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins

Confession to a priest is completely scriptural, it is an ancient doctrine, and those links are so helpful.

Many, many other things that I would rather not say because they are worse than you can imagine. Let me just say that there is some speculation in the role that the Catholic church will play in end times.

Heard them...yep yep. No we are not the wh*re of Babylon.
Go read the whole verse concerning the harlot.
For one thing she sells finery...and such. etc etc
IMHO that is about the nations of the world. But few folks realise that the world itself has seven continents. [hills] that have formed out reaching the oceans. Those seven continents hold the world...of which do trade, sell, and such.
Its perspective, and I have read every 'so called prophecy' regarding the Church and Rome....etc.
Its not true. WHY Would John HELP ESTABLISH the harlot?

I am convinced that none of this is true. However, the one issue that I still have is the doctrine of infallibility.

Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority. Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Basically Peter bound doctrines of Christ and Loosed the doctrines of Christ.....all other Popes can only speak infallibly in the sense of defining doctrine and concepts concerning what was always Tradition and doctrine.

I cannot get past that one. Every Catholic that I have talked with is convinced that the Catholic church has never made an error. What I mean by this is official Catholic doctrine, not that individuals within the church have not taught error or practiced error.

Infallibility does not mean men in the Church are perfect.

Then I think this gets confused with the Holy Spirit that is the keeper of the Church.....which means the Holy Spirit shall stay with her and we Know the gates of hell cannot prevail.
Now take aside the doctrines and dogma's of the faith ... and you will have men in the Church who are sinners, but God can preserve His doctrines in spite of man.
Men are not perfect, but ancient Tradition is...as it was the foundation laid by Peter and cannot be changed because of the supervision of the Holy Spirit.

[quuote]Oh, and another one that still bothers me. I have heard many references to the co-redemtress doctrine of Mary. There may be others but that is all that I can think of right now.

Lisa[/quote]

Well, she is undeniably the closest to Her Son...BUT we are all co redeemers one to another when we pray for each other. But she is the Heavenly co redeemer who prays for her adopted children in Christ.

ALSO since she has 'pull' with Her Son, and since she uses that favor granted her, she uses it to aid the salvation by her continous prayers for mankind. AND thru Her cooperation we obtained the Lord, so with her cooperation she helped the world by bringing the Son of God to redeem all.
Make sense?

This does NOT mean she can do anything for mankind above or equal to Christ's sacrifice.
But that she played an important role to HELP in the redemption of mankind by giving Him her flesh to be like humanity in flesh.

I hope I explained it succinctly.

Peace!

 

[Lisa0315]

WE already covered that...right?



Did Jesus honor His Mother? [4th Commandment] Are we to imitate Jesus?
Did Jesus create His own Mother?
IF you were to create your own Mother...would you make her perfect?
Nevertheless..Catholics do not worship Mary. WE seek the Lord's mother for her intercessory power...and we seek her love to guide us fully to understand Her Son. [Difficult to explain, but it does happen...for I am a product of her guidance]
Prayer beads are meditative, in which we are directed to concentrate on the Lord.
And on scripture.
Icons and such ~ are also ancient, [due to the inability to own camera's] the ancients felt it due honor to erect a statue/icon for rememberance of Saints who martyred or lived piously and are equated to any pictures, or memorials we have of family.
They also are NOT worshipped.

1. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
2. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins

Confession to a priest is completely scriptural, it is an ancient doctrine, and those links are so helpful.




Heard them...yep yep. No we are not the wh*re of Babylon.
Go read the whole verse concerning the harlot.
For one thing she sells finery...and such. etc etc
IMHO that is about the nations of the world. But few folks realise that the world itself has seven continents. [hills] that have formed out reaching the oceans. Those seven continents hold the world...of which do trade, sell, and such.
Its perspective, and I have read every 'so called prophecy' regarding the Church and Rome....etc.
Its not true. WHY Would John HELP ESTABLISH the harlot?





Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority. Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.

Basically Peter bound doctrines of Christ and Loosed the doctrines of Christ.....all other Popes can only speak infallibly in the sense of defining doctrine and concepts concerning what was always Tradition and doctrine.




Infallibility does not mean men in the Church are perfect.

Then I think this gets confused with the Holy Spirit that is the keeper of the Church.....which means the Holy Spirit shall stay with her and we Know the gates of hell cannot prevail.
Now take aside the doctrines and dogma's of the faith ... and you will have men in the Church who are sinners, but God can preserve His doctrines in spite of man.
Men are not perfect, but ancient Tradition is...as it was the foundation laid by Peter and cannot be changed because of the supervision of the Holy Spirit.

[quuote]Oh, and another one that still bothers me. I have heard many references to the co-redemtress doctrine of Mary. There may be others but that is all that I can think of right now.

Lisa

Well, she is undeniably the closest to Her Son...BUT we are all co redeemers one to another when we pray for each other. But she is the Heavenly co redeemer who prays for her adopted children in Christ.

ALSO since she has 'pull' with Her Son, and since she uses that favor granted her, she uses it to aid the salvation by her continous prayers for mankind. AND thru Her cooperation we obtained the Lord, so with her cooperation she helped the world by bringing the Son of God to redeem all.
Make sense?

This does NOT mean she can do anything for mankind above or equal to Christ's sacrifice.
But that she played an important role to HELP in the redemption of mankind by giving Him her flesh to be like humanity in flesh.

I hope I explained it succinctly.

Peace! [/quote]

THANK YOU!!!!

That was quite the best, neatest, simplest explanation I have EVER received! Very well done!

Okay, next...Tell me about the sacraments. I understand baptism and communion, but what about the other five? What are they, what is their Bibical basis, and how are they performed?

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Another question...What is the difference between the RCC and other Catholic denominations? How many Catholic denominations are there? Do other Catholic, but non-RCC have the same "defects" applied to them that non-Catholics are charged with?

 

[Carrye]

Another question...What is the difference between the RCC and other Catholic denominations? How many Catholic denominations are there? Do other Catholic, but non-RCC have the same "defects" applied to them that non-Catholics are charged with?

There are no Catholic denominations. There are Rites of the Catholic Church. Many of them are cultural, and vary in liturgy and the way in which they explain theology. They believe the same things that Latin Rite Catholics do.

 

[Carrye]

Okay, next...Tell me about the sacraments. I understand baptism and communion, but what about the other five? What are they, what is their Bibical basis, and how are they performed?

That's a big question!

Sacraments of Initiation:
- Baptism
- Eucharist (Jn 6)
- Confirmation

Sacraments of Healing:
- Reconciliation (Jn 20)
- Anointing of the Sick (Mk 6:13, Js 5)

Sacraments of Vocation:
- Holy Orders
- Marriage

 

[Lisa0315]

There are no Catholic denominations. There are Rites of the Catholic Church. Many of them are cultural, and vary in liturgy and the way in which they explain theology. They believe the same things that Latin Rite Catholics do.

But doesn't one of them have their own pope? If so, how is that perceived by Rome?

 

[Carrye]

But doesn't one of them have their own pope? If so, how is that perceived by Rome?

Nope, there is one pope. Some of the Rites have their own patriarch, like a local head. But the popes are in the succession from Peter.

 

[Lisa0315]

That's a big question!

Sacraments of Initiation:
- Baptism
- Eucharist (Jn 6)
- Confirmation

Sacraments of Healing:
- Reconciliation (Jn 20)
- Anointing of the Sick (Mk 6:13, Js 5)

Sacraments of Vocation:
- Holy Orders
- Marriage

I think we have all of those also.

We have baptism, but consider it symbolic and in obedience. We have communion or the remembrance of the Lord's Supper. We use little wafers and grape juice. (Fundemental Baptists do not drink alcohol.) We follow the Bible regarding a member who has gravely sinned but repents. That member usually gets up in front of the whole church and asks forgiveness. Annointing of the sick, the pastor and deacons annoint with oil and pray over the person. Pastors and Deacons are ordained. And of course marriage. I wish we were as strong on marriage as you guys are. What happens if a Catholic couple divorces?

Far as I can tell, we do all of these things but with a lot less ceremony. From what I have written, how different are we?

Lisa