Catholicism wrong?

[Lisa0315]

Ok, That is very true..... and since there is one, and Christ never left His Church, and He left His Holy Spirit in the Church....where do you say it would be today?

The Holy Spirit is in the believer not in a building. I believe that the church, the Bride of Christ, is the whole body of believers regardless of denomination. Now, that is not to say there aren't denominations out there who preach a false gospel. However, those who agree on the fundementals are part of Christ's church. The fundementals are that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect and sinless life, was 100% God and 100% man, died on the cross at Calvary to atone for sin, rose again on the third day, and will return in Glory. The Nicene Creed says it better.

 

[Lisa0315]

I think it is better left here, seems like a nice discusssion, it will get torn up in another forum

Thank you. It seemed to get deeper and deeper until I was not sure if I was breaking a rule or not. We will continue to keep it nice.

Lisa

 

[a_ntv]

For example, I once wondered if God was pleased with me. I wanted God to be pleased with me, but I could not tell if He was or not. Neither feelings nor logic was of any help on this one. It was just a passing thought. I didn't obsess about it. It just flickered through my head one morning. At lunch, I usually study the Bible, but I often listen to Christian radio while I am actually eating. Anyway, that same day, I turn on the radio and the sermon was, "How to know if God is pleased with you". So, answers come in many forms. Through prayer, through Bible study, through preaching of His word. The peace that I have described is what follows the answer. It is not the answer in of itself.

If you look at God, God will reveal to you.
I have a catholic friend who is in a cath group that pray like a pentacostal. He has exactly your way to approch the Lord. The ways to arrive to him are endless.

For me this approch dont work. I used it years ago, but I made no good progress in christian way. At the end I discovered that most of the 'discerniments' were self suggestions, or that I could not judge if coming from God or not. But the point was that I went on always on the same sins. So there was something wrong in my christian life, that was made of good discernimets and some sins. I founded a solution when I stopped to look at me and I tried to look only at Him.

Skripper is trying to say you something very simple. He say that 'discerniment' can work as way of praying, but dont work as way to find doctrinal true. He explained his reasons. For me it dont work simple bc it leads to so endless different solutions for something that have only one solution that cannot work.

 

[lionroar0]

It's a little disheartening to NOT pray to God directly, but that's just me. I mean, I want to know I am praying directly to God... and another disheartening thing is that I can never be as close to Him as the clergy, whereas a Protestant views this differently.

The problem is one of language. Protestanism in seeking it's own identity( which is till doing BTW) has formed it's own language that is different then what Catholics use. We may speak english but we the words are used differently in protestanim.

When we say we pray to Mary. What we mean is that we are asking her to pray with and for us The same way that you have asked others to pray for you and have asked others to pray with you.

The notion that clergy is closer to God then a lay person with in Catholicism is foreign to Catholicism. It's just simply not true.

Peace

 

[WarriorAngel]

The Holy Spirit is in the believer not in a building. I believe that the church, the Bride of Christ, is the whole body of believers regardless of denomination.

You are correct on a few points.
It is not a building of stone, but a building on His Apostles teachings.
You are correct about demoniations, which did not exist prior to 1500 AD.
It is when denominations split apart what was already ordained that causes the confusion.

One must ask.....which came first; The Teachings from the Apostles, or the letters they wrote later?
And who has been left to discern the letters?
WE know the letters were written to the first 'priests' or rather 'disciples' that the Apostles were teaching.
Note; the Epistles are instructions to the Churches already established. Correct?

Now, that is not to say there aren't denominations out there who preach a false gospel.

You are very clever. Yes, this is true.
But who has the first truths is what we should truly be in search of.
This becomes a difficult task when one man says the Bible means this, and another breaks off and says it means that. Would you agree?
So therefore man cannot be the authority of such Testaments. They are fallible and each one may feel it means one thing, and the other will totally disgree. Sad truly.

However, those who agree on the fundementals are part of Christ's church. The fundementals are that Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect and sinless life, was 100% God and 100% man, died on the cross at Calvary to atone for sin, rose again on the third day, and will return in Glory. The Nicene Creed says it better.

Love the Nicene Creed.
Jesus was all of that and more.
Jesus left His ppl a truth to follow, with which gives mankind graces abundantly, because He is all Mercy.
And yet, He is all just too.

So, we have to dig up research, and see what exactly was taught, not only by the Apostles themselves in the Epistles, because they were Inspired, but also because they taught prior to those writings...so what did they teach?

The early Christians who were taught by the Apostles, knew definitively what they were teaching.

There were 7 sacraments given, all are in the Bible, but moreso these sacraments warrant graces that help us succeed in our struggles on earth. Jesus is always good, and He knew our struggles b4 He ascended.

He did not leave us orphaned. He promised to be with us until the end of time.

So, is He with us, and did He leave us salvavic measures outside the Bible?

The Apostles taught the sacraments, and used them.
All of which aid us on our journey home. That is where we all desire to go, I believe I can assume such.

Would the Lord, filled with utter Love and Mercy leave His sheep unattended for 30 or 40 years? The NT, Epistles, were not even written while the first followers were learning.

He sent the truths in the Apostles, who taught the truths. NOT all of which were recorded by their very selves, but also recorded within their first Churches by their pupils.

Do you know anything about the sacraments and how they can be defined in the Bible?

 

[Skripper]

Answering my question with a question is not an answer.

I have not made any statements regarding the discernment of others. I have only talked about mine. Since you are the one who claims to know that my discernment is not from God, I think you should answer the question that I put to you.

Please re-read what I've said. I have made no such claim. What I have said is that you have no way of knowing whether or not it is "from God," based upon your "feelings." Moreover, I've said the exact same thing regarding myself, that I have no way of knowing, either, based on my feelings. But, to answer your question, I will say this (but then I would ask you to answer my same question to you, for which you insist upon an answer from me). My answer would be that I would compare whatever you are saying to dogmatic, infallible teachings of the Catholic Church. If what you (or anyone else) claims, whether it be "doctrinal" or your own scriptural "interpretation," and it is in conflict/contradiction with infallible Catholic teaching, then I would conclude that it iis not of God. Now, on what basis would you discern that anyone's claim, with which you disagree, is not of God? I've answered your question. Will you answer mine? And you can't just say, "Because the Holy Spirit told me so." Since anyone can say that. So that's no evidence. You also can't just say, "Because I 'feel' it to be true." For the same reason; anyone can say that. It would also not be a very strong argument to say, in some form, "I know I'm right because it's what I've concluded from reading the Bible . . . and I know the Holy Spirit and/or 'My Master's Voice' has led me to this conclusion." . . . again, for the same reason . . . because thousands, if not millions, of other Christians say the same thing . . . yet they disagree. So, on what basis would you determine that my own "feelings/discernments" are not "of God"?

 

[Lisa0315]

Be back in a few hours. Time for church...

Lisa

 

[Skripper]

I have a question which I probably should have asked a long time ago. Am I breaking forum rules by having this discussion with y'all in OBOB? Should we move this some place else?

Lisa

Well, possibly. But if anyone is going to take any heat over this discussion, it will be me, not you. Since I am a senior staff member in this forum, the responsibility will be mine. I may take some flak over it, but you will not . . . so long as I have any say-so.

 

[Skripper]

Be back in a few hours. Time for church...

Lisa

Don't let us keep you from that. See you when you get back . . . and say a prayer for me.

 

[Lisa0315]

Don't let us keep you from that. See you when you get back . . . and say a prayer for me.

Thanks, I will. Last post before I walk out the door...

Funny, I did not even notice you were a moderator. If I say anything anti-catholic, let me know and I will edit. I would not do it intentionally, but sometimes a post can be offensive without the poster realizing it.

Be back in a couple of hours.

Lisa

 

[Skripper]

Thanks, I will. Last post before I walk out the door...

Funny, I did not even notice you were a moderator.

That's okay . . . since I have not been posting in my capacity as a moderaotor. I am merely posting in my capacity as a Christian, as a Catholic and as a member of this forum. We moderators don't give that up when joining staff.

If I say anything anti-catholic, let me know and I will edit. I would not do it intentionally, but sometimes a post can be offensive without the poster realizing it.

Well, if you have . . . I certainly haven't seen it. IMHO, your behavior and postings have been exemplary.

Be back in a couple of hours.

Lisa

See you when you get back . . . and don't forget to pray for me. Now get out of here and go to church!

 

[Carrye]

IMHO, your behavior and postings have been exemplary.

I agree. Thank you for the discussion, Lisa.

 

[Lisa0315]

You are correct on a few points.
It is not a building of stone, but a building on His Apostles teachings.
You are correct about demoniations, which did not exist prior to 1500 AD.
It is when denominations split apart what was already ordained that causes the confusion.

One must ask.....which came first; The Teachings from the Apostles, or the letters they wrote later?
And who has been left to discern the letters?
WE know the letters were written to the first 'priests' or rather 'disciples' that the Apostles were teaching.
Note; the Epistles are instructions to the Churches already established. Correct?



You are very clever. Yes, this is true.
But who has the first truths is what we should truly be in search of.
This becomes a difficult task when one man says the Bible means this, and another breaks off and says it means that. Would you agree?
So therefore man cannot be the authority of such Testaments. They are fallible and each one may feel it means one thing, and the other will totally disgree. Sad truly.



Love the Nicene Creed.
Jesus was all of that and more.
Jesus left His ppl a truth to follow, with which gives mankind graces abundantly, because He is all Mercy.
And yet, He is all just too.

So, we have to dig up research, and see what exactly was taught, not only by the Apostles themselves in the Epistles, because they were Inspired, but also because they taught prior to those writings...so what did they teach?

The early Christians who were taught by the Apostles, knew definitively what they were teaching.

There were 7 sacraments given, all are in the Bible, but moreso these sacraments warrant graces that help us succeed in our struggles on earth. Jesus is always good, and He knew our struggles b4 He ascended.

He did not leave us orphaned. He promised to be with us until the end of time.

So, is He with us, and did He leave us salvavic measures outside the Bible?

The Apostles taught the sacraments, and used them.
All of which aid us on our journey home. That is where we all desire to go, I believe I can assume such.

Would the Lord, filled with utter Love and Mercy leave His sheep unattended for 30 or 40 years? The NT, Epistles, were not even written while the first followers were learning.

He sent the truths in the Apostles, who taught the truths. NOT all of which were recorded by their very selves, but also recorded within their first Churches by their pupils.

Do you know anything about the sacraments and how they can be defined in the Bible?

I know very little about the sacraments except for baptism and The Lord's Supper. I would like to know more especially as they are defined in the Bible.

I do believe that God would have ordained a perfect united church under whose banner we should have all remained. What I do not believe is that this church was incorruptible.

As far as the splits with the church...I think that fault was on both sides. Luther did not want a split. He wanted change, and change was warranted. On the other hand, it seems as if Luther allowed himself to be used as a political tool by equally corrupt and politically minded factions.

To me, if the Catholic Church had prayed with Luther and admitted the errors that were going on at the time, there would not have been a split. Luther, on the other hand, even after being excommunicated, perhaps, should not have allowed new churches to spring up in his name.

The problem with the doctrine of infallibility is that it traps the church into not being able to correct what is wrong. We know, and JPII agreed that we are not saved by any works, but rather by the grace of God. Grace alone saves us and 500 years later, the Catholic Church admits to this with the Lutheran agreement. With this admission, churches are returning to their mother.

Now, before we get into the whole works vs grace issue, let me say that I understand that abusing grace is possible. Works are a result of saving grace, but works do not generate grace. Grace is freely given by God and regenerates the believer. Works are made manifest in the believer as a result. Do we both agree on this? This is my understanding of the Lutheran agreement and this is in full agreement with the church that I attend. (Independent Baptist)

I say all of this with all due respect. I realize how touchy of a subject this is for both sides, but I would greatly enjoy discussing this further. I believe that they will never be unity unless we can heal from the past. There are great and old wounds on both sides. I feel that if we cannot at least talk about it, we will continue being separate.

So...it all comes down to the doctrine of infallibility.

 

[Lisa0315]

Please re-read what I've said. I have made no such claim. What I have said is that you have no way of knowing whether or not it is "from God," based upon your "feelings." Moreover, I've said the exact same thing regarding myself, that I have no way of knowing, either, based on my feelings. But, to answer your question, I will say this (but then I would ask you to answer my same question to you, for which you insist upon an answer from me). My answer would be that I would compare whatever you are saying to dogmatic, infallible teachings of the Catholic Church. If what you (or anyone else) claims, whether it be "doctrinal" or your own scriptural "interpretation," and it is in conflict/contradiction with infallible Catholic teaching, then I would conclude that it iis not of God. Now, on what basis would you discern that anyone's claim, with which you disagree, is not of God? I've answered your question. Will you answer mine? And you can't just say, "Because the Holy Spirit told me so." Since anyone can say that. So that's no evidence. You also can't just say, "Because I 'feel' it to be true." For the same reason; anyone can say that. It would also not be a very strong argument to say, in some form, "I know I'm right because it's what I've concluded from reading the Bible . . . and I know the Holy Spirit and/or 'My Master's Voice' has led me to this conclusion." . . . again, for the same reason . . . because thousands, if not millions, of other Christians say the same thing . . . yet they disagree. So, on what basis would you determine that my own "feelings/discernments" are not "of God"?

I do not believe in the infallibility of the Catholic Church, but lets discuss that for a moment. Maybe, I do not understand what that actually means.

Before I became a Christian, I used to go to another Christian forum, I think it was on Compuserve before AOL and Compuserve merged. This was probably about seven years ago. Forums were not segregated there like they are here. There was nothing similar to the OBOB, so I talked with many Catholics there. I got into lots of discussions about works vs grace/faith. To a person, every Catholic I talked with, and not all of them were laymen, said that works were required for salvation.

In the Lutheran agreement, JPII states that we are not saved by any merit of our own (and this is not a quote, but the gist that I got out of it), but by the grace of God. This is COMPLETELY in line with what my Baptist church teaches and I was THRILLED with that document.

So, what happened five hundred years ago? If it was ALWAYS grace that saved us, for what cause was Luther excommunicated? If the church had no doctrinal error, if the church is infallible, how did this happen and why did it take 500 years to correct?

I would love to see us all united under one banner but I do not believe that will happen until Christ returns. I do not believe that it will happen because of pride on both sides. With a doctrine that never admits error, how can there be unity?

 

[Lisa0315]

I agree. Thank you for the discussion, Lisa.

Oh! That's sweet. It is nice to have a civilized discussion, but again, if at any time, I say something offensive, just tell me and explain why it is offensive. I will apologize and edit.

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

That's okay . . . since I have not been posting in my capacity as a moderaotor. I am merely posting in my capacity as a Christian, as a Catholic and as a member of this forum. We moderators don't give that up when joining staff.



Well, if you have . . . I certainly haven't seen it. IMHO, your behavior and postings have been exemplary.



See you when you get back . . . and don't forget to pray for me. Now get out of here and go to church!

I really appreciate how nice everyone has been to me. This is true brotherly (sisterly) love. I love having this opportunity to discuss these things with all of you.

Moderator hat on or off, if I unknowingly write something offensive, just say the word. I do not have to agree if it is offensive or not. My status here is a guest and my Momma raised me better than that!

Lisa

 

[Carrye]

So, what happened five hundred years ago? If it was ALWAYS grace that saved us, for what cause was Luther excommunicated? If the church had no doctrinal error, if the church is infallible, how did this happen and why did it take 500 years to correct?

Because the Church has not changed her position on this. Luther had a valid criticism - the way in which indulgences were being practiced. But Luther did not advance the faith alone cause. The Church has always taught that salvation comes by grace through faith. There was nothing in this teaching to correct.

Luther was excommunicated for reasons that far surpassed this issue. Read Exsurge Domine for more.

 

[Lisa0315]

Because the Church has not changed her position on this. Luther had a valid criticism - the way in which indulgences were being practiced. But Luther did not advance the faith alone cause. The Church has always taught that salvation comes by grace through faith. There was nothing in this teaching to correct.

Luther was excommunicated for reasons that far surpassed this issue. Read Exsurge Domine for more.

Then, where did the fallacy come from? When asked to recant, Luther could not. What was he asked to recant?

 

[Lisa0315]

15. Great is the error of those who approach the sacrament of the Eucharist relying on this, that they have confessed, that they are not conscious of any mortal sin, that they have sent their prayers on ahead and made preparations; all these eat and drink judgment to themselves. But if they believe and trust that they will attain grace, then this faith alone makes them pure and worthy.

From the link I was given...The above is one of the "errors" that Luther was condemned for. See words in bold.

 

[WarriorAngel]

15. Great is the error of those who approach the sacrament of the Eucharist relying on this, that they have confessed, that they are not conscious of any mortal sin, that they have sent their prayers on ahead and made preparations; all these eat and drink judgment to themselves. But if they believe and trust that they will attain grace, then this faith alone makes them pure and worthy.

From the link I was given...The above is one of the "errors" that Luther was condemned for. See words in bold.

THIS faith, which is the faith in the Eucharist.
Specifics, not generalization.

Luther generalized faith to mean that is all it takes without cooperation of the free will to choose to abstain from sin.
But the notation above is a specific faith.