Catholicism wrong?

[Lisa0315]

Sure you did. Go back and read what you wrote, then consider its logical implications.



See, you are still doing it, even now, though I truly believe you sincerely don't realize it. Becuse the above not only infers and implies, but in fact requires, if what you are saying is true (since you are stating it as though it were a fact, and not merely what it actually is, merely your own opinion that you think the Holy Spirit is doing this), that the infallible Holy Spirit works infallibly through you, personally, guiding you, personally, in scriptural interpretation. That is the meaning of what you are saying above, just using different words, that's all. Because if the Holy Spirit truly is guiding you, personally, when it comes to scriptural interpretations, then that's infallible, since the Holy Spirit is infallible. Unfortunately, I believe that this is not the case. I do not believe that the Holy Spirit has selected you, above all other creatures on the earth, to impart this infallible guidance in scriptural interpretation. I don't doubt that you believe He is doing this and, therefore, you believe your scriptural interpretations are correct.



Sorry, but no. You are the one that has brought "feelings," into this, not me. By claiming that the feelings you feel are "manifestations of God," it is only you who could, possibly, be mistaking "feelings" with God; not me. I don't rely on "feelings" (even though I do in fact have them). So I cannot be the one here that is possibly mistaking feelings for manifestations of God.



Not from me you haven't. I haven't said emotions are bad. What I will say, though, is that they are not reliable as infallible indicators of "God." All sorts of things elicit feelings and emotions in us, not just God.



Yet none of this demonstrates that any "feelings" or emotions are acts of God which "prove" that what we believe is correct . . . sorry.



Of course, I never said emotions are bad.



Oh, I agree that teaching people that emotions should be removed from prayer isn't found in the Bible. Same as it isn't in the Bible that prayers must contain emotion. Of course, the Catholic Church has no teaching on this, one way or the other. The Catholic Church does not teach "Your prayers must be emotion-filled." Neither does the Catholic Church teach that, "Your prayers must be void of emotions." So none of this is an issue, with respect to Catholic teaching, anyway.

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about the Holy Spirit directly guiding and giving me discernment in application to my life. I think you are reading way too much into what I am saying.

My daughter began talking about getting an apartment with friends right before she graduated from high school. I was somewhat concerned about this for a couple of reasons. 1) I wanted her to go to college. Taking time off from school did not seem like a good idea. 2) We had not raised our children in church. My daughter at that time had only been a Christian for one year and I was afraid that she did not yet have the foundation she needed.

So, I began to pray about the matter. I poured out all my fears and concerns before God. I asked Him for wisdom in guiding my daughter down the right path. Some time later, I was reading the Bible at lunch. I was reading Lamentations and a verse jumped out at me. I would have to look up the exact verse, but that doesn't even matter. Anyway, the verse mentioned the princes of Judah being taken captive. I do not know why that particular verse captured my attention, but it did. Since, I use a Scofield study Bible, I flipped to the end of II Kings which gives more detail about the capture of Israel. The very next page over, I think, is Ezra which speaks of the remnant returning after 70 years of captivity. Only a few of the Jews returned. Most were content to remain in Babylon. Many of the Jews no longer knew what tribe they were from. After just 70 years, they had lost their heritage. This spoke volumes to me about my daughter going out into the world.

Later, I sat my daughter down and told her pretty much what I have written here. I told her how I had prayed for her and I had asked God for wisdom to advise her. My daughter listened to me. She remained home for almost another year, then, went to college. After just one more year, she was much more mature in the faith and much more prepared for the temptations that she would face.

This additional year also meant that my daughter met a nice boy who she will likely marry after they both graduate. He is a Christian young man and the two of them attend colleges close together. They meet at his school, then, drive a short distance to his family's church.

This additional year also meant that my daughter was used by God to help a young girl who was pregnant. Long story, but this girl is now a Christian.

None of these things would have happened if my daughter had left home when she wanted to.

This is the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life. To say that this came by my own merit is ridiculous. God answered my prayer and gave me the wisdom to handle the situation. God then honored and blessed both of us. When we turn away from the folly of our own wisdom, and instead rely on God, He always provides the answer.

 

[MParedon]

To the OP, I'm sorry that your thread seems to have gone off kilter.

I don't know, maybe you could start another thread with specific questions or continue in this one.

I do have one suggestion. What really really really helped me was reading books and listening to tapes. I think it would be helpful to read what the Catholic Church teaches and why it teaches it and then read the Protestant take on it. Then after that I would go on to listening to debate tapes. I learned so much by doing this myself.

There is one book I would like to suggest that I never read but it was highlighted on Catholic Answers. It's a book of dialogue between a Catholic priest and a Protestant. They both explain their sides. Maybe someone here knows the name of the book.

As for another book reference, I strongly suggest anything written by Scott Hahn. He's easy to understand and 'speaks' Protestant language .

If you aren't ready to out and buy books about this, I strongly suggest going to EWTN, looking up their audio library and searching for Scott Hahn, and Father Corapi [I don't know that he does apologetics (defense of Catholic beliefs) but he does some fabulous comprehensive preaching]

 

[Skripper]

Let me give you an example of what I am talking about the Holy Spirit directly guiding and giving me discernment in application to my life. I think you are reading way too much into what I am saying.

My daughter began talking about getting an apartment with friends right before she graduated from high school. I was somewhat concerned about this for a couple of reasons. 1) I wanted her to go to college. Taking time off from school did not seem like a good idea. 2) We had not raised our children in church. My daughter at that time had only been a Christian for one year and I was afraid that she did not yet have the foundation she needed.

So, I began to pray about the matter. I poured out all my fears and concerns before God. I asked Him for wisdom in guiding my daughter down the right path. Some time later, I was reading the Bible at lunch. I was reading Lamentations and a verse jumped out at me. I would have to look up the exact verse, but that doesn't even matter. Anyway, the verse mentioned the princes of Judah being taken captive. I do not know why that particular verse captured my attention, but it did. Since, I use a Scofield study Bible, I flipped to the end of II Kings which gives more detail about the capture of Israel. The very next page over, I think, is Ezra which speaks of the remnant returning after 70 years of captivity. Only a few of the Jews returned. Most were content to remain in Babylon. Many of the Jews no longer knew what tribe they were from. After just 70 years, they had lost their heritage. This spoke volumes to me about my daughter going out into the world.

Later, I sat my daughter down and told her pretty much what I have written here. I told her how I had prayed for her and I had asked God for wisdom to advise her. My daughter listened to me. She remained home for almost another year, then, went to college. After just one more year, she was much more mature in the faith and much more prepared for the temptations that she would face.

This additional year also meant that my daughter met a nice boy who she will likely marry after they both graduate. He is a Christian young man and the two of them attend colleges close together. They meet at his school, then, drive a short distance to his family's church.

This additional year also meant that my daughter was used by God to help a young girl who was pregnant. Long story, but this girl is now a Christian.

None of these things would have happened if my daughter had left home when she wanted to.

This is the wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life. To say that this came by my own merit is ridiculous. God answered my prayer and gave me the wisdom to handle the situation. God then honored and blessed both of us. When we turn away from the folly of our own wisdom, and instead rely on God, He always provides the answer.

It may well be the Holy Spirit. Then again, it may just be good parenting. The simple truth is, we have no infallible way of knowing, for sure. Look, I'm not arguing that the Holy Spirit does not move in your life, or in my life, or anyone's life. That would be silly. All I'm saying is that what you have claimed, that you know something is "right," (whether it is some doctrine, some scriptural interpretations or life decisions, based upon some inner "feeling" of "peace") is not only not infallible, it is an unreliable method to know whether or not something is truly of God. As though there's no way we could be decieved by these feelings. As though our belief that it is from God makes it so. I have these sorts of peaceful feelings as well. Do I think they are of God? Yes, I do. Do I know so, with infallible certainty, that it is? No, I do not. And neither do you. This applies to our "feelings" about doctrine, and about scriptural interpretations (both yours and mine). Neither of our "feelings" guarantee that anything is "correct," no matter how much we may wish it to be so. To rely on these "feelings," no matter how much we may honestly and sincerely believe they are "of God," is an unreliable method to determine either correct scriptural interpretations, or correct doctrine. Yet you assert that you rely on these feelings.

 

[Lisa0315]

It may well be the Holy Spirit. Then again, it may just be good parenting. The simple truth is, we have no infallible way of knowing, for sure. Look, I'm not arguing that the Holy Spirit does not move in your life, or in my life, or anyone's life. That would be silly. All I'm saying is that what you have claimed, that you know something is "right," (whether it is some doctrine, some scriptural interpretations or life decisions, based upon some inner "feeling" of "peace") is not only not infallible, it is an unreliable method to know whether or not something is truly of God. As though there's no way we could be decieved by these feelings. As though our belief that it is from God makes it so. I have these sorts of peaceful feelings as well. Do I think they are of God? Yes, I do. Do I know so, with infallible certainty, that it is? No, I do not. And neither do you. This applies to our "feelings" about doctrine, and about scriptural interpretations (both yours and mine). Neither of our "feelings" guarantee that anything is "correct," no matter how much we may wish it to be so. To rely on these "feelings," no matter how much we may honestly and sincerely believe they are "of God," is an unreliable method to determine either correct scriptural interpretations, or correct doctrine. Yet you assert that you rely on these feelings.

I said that there is a feeling of peace that follows my Master's voice. I don't think I said it in those exact words, but it is what I meant. This is how I tell the commands of God from the deception of Satan.

This sense of peace has been very reliable. It is when I do not listen to this that I get into trouble. So, it has been tested, and if I am honest, quite often. I recognize my Master's voice. I do not always heed it. Usually, it is because I think I know what is best for me and because I am still learning to give things to God. When I do lay my problems at His feet and purpose in my heart that I will follow His direction no matter how difficult, it always works out for the best. When, I instead, say, "I can't do that!" That feeling of peace is not there and I go back and forth, back and forth, make mistakes, and end up right back where I started.

Emotions are gifts from God. They have been tainted by original sin. However, if those emotions are used and directed by God, they are powerful tools in our Christian life. Emotion does not override logic. Yet, logic should not override emotion either. There should be a balance between the two.

For example, if you are walking barefoot, and you step on a sharp rock, you instinctively pull your foot away to avoid worse pain and injury. Our emotions are like those nerve endings in our feet. Guilt over sin is a healthy emotion because it causes us to repent and pull away from worse pain and injury of deeper sin. Peace from listening to God is the same. It is an indication that putting our faith in God will not lead us astray. It is the feeling of confidence that we have in God to lead us exactly where He wants us to go. Discernment is simply identifying the guilt from the peace. The Holy Spirit gives us that discernment.

 

[Skripper]

I said that there is a feeling of peace that follows my Master's voice. I don't think I said it in those exact words, but it is what I meant. This is how I tell the commands of God from the deception of Satan.

This sense of peace has been very reliable. It is when I do not listen to this that I get into trouble. So, it has been tested, and if I am honest, quite often. I recognize my Master's voice. I do not always heed it. Usually, it is because I think I know what is best for me and because I am still learning to give things to God. When I do lay my problems at His feet and purpose in my heart that I will follow His direction no matter how difficult, it always works out for the best. When, I instead, say, "I can't do that!" That feeling of peace is not there and I go back and forth, back and forth, make mistakes, and end up right back where I started.

Emotions are gifts from God. They have been tainted by original sin. However, if those emotions are used and directed by God, they are powerful tools in our Christian life. Emotion does not override logic. Yet, logic should not override emotion either. There should be a balance between the two.

For example, if you are walking barefoot, and you step on a sharp rock, you instinctively pull your foot away to avoid worse pain and injury. Our emotions are like those nerve endings in our feet. Guilt over sin is a healthy emotion because it causes us to repent and pull away from worse pain and injury of deeper sin. Peace from listening to God is the same. It is an indication that putting our faith in God will not lead us astray. It is the feeling of confidence that we have in God to lead us exactly where He wants us to go. Discernment is simply identifying the guilt from the peace. The Holy Spirit gives us that discernment.

Lisa,

You have made this point over and over and over again. There is no point to keep repeating it. You get a peaceful feeling from hearing your Master's Voice . . . I get it. I don't deny this. But you are missing, entirely, what I am saying, apparently. I am not disputing your feelings, or that the Master's Voice gives you peace (just like I would not dispute that the Master's Voice could make one experience uncomfortable "feelings," that are less than "peaceful," as when He chastises us for rebelling against Him). What I am disputing is your claim that you can know either correct doctrine, or correct scriptural interpretations, based upon any "feelings," regardless of how much you may really, really, really, really, really, really, really believe it is the "Master's Voice" telling you this. I have, literally, heard this argument made hundreds, if not thousands of times before, by sincere Christians . . . yet what they really, really, really, really, really, really, believe is the "Master's Voice" telling them is actually something diametrically opposed to what other, equally sincere Christians, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, reallly, believe is the "Master's Voice" as well, telling them something else, that is contradictory. Yet the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. And He does not contradict Himself. Therefore, the only conclusion that any thinking, rational person can arrive at, who is also intellectually honest, is what I have been saying throughout this thread. "Feelings," no matter how much one really, really, really, really, really, really, believes are "the Master's Voice," cannot be relied upon to determine either correct doctrine or correct scriptural interpretion. To assert otherwise, as you insist on doing, is to say that only your "feelings" are authentically "the Master's Voice," if and when the conclusions you draw are in conflict with other sincere Christians who make the exact same claim that you are making. And I reject that claim. I do not believe that only your "feelings" and conclusions are either correct, or authentically from God. Sorry.

 

[Lisa0315]

Lisa,

You have made this point over and over and over again. There is no point to keep repeating it. You get a peaceful feeling from hearing your Master's Voice . . . I get it. I don't deny this. But you are missing, entirely, what I am saying, apparently. I am not disputing your feelings, or that the Master's Voice gives you peace (just like I would not dispute that the Master's Voice could make one experience uncomfortable "feelings," that are less than "peaceful," as when He chastises us for rebelling against Him). What I am disputing is your claim that you can know either correct doctrine, or correct scriptural interpretations, based upon any "feelings," regardless of how much you may really, really, really, really, really, really, really believe it is the "Master's Voice" telling you this. I have, literally, heard this argument made hundreds, if not thousands of times before, by sincere Christians . . . yet what they really, really, really, really, really, really, believe is the "Master's Voice" telling them is actually something diametrically opposed to what other, equally sincere Christians, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, reallly, believe is the "Master's Voice" as well, telling them something else, that is contradictory. Yet the Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion. And He does not contradict Himself. Therefore, the only conclusion that any thinking, rational person can arrive at, who is also intellectually honest, is what I have been saying throughout this thread. "Feelings," no matter how much one really, really, really, really, really, really, believes are "the Master's Voice," cannot be relied upon to determine either correct doctrine or correct scriptural interpretion. To assert otherwise, as you insist on doing, is to say that only your "feelings" are authentically "the Master's Voice," if and when the conclusions you draw are in conflict with other sincere Christians who make the exact same claim that you are making. And I reject that claim. I do not believe that only your "feelings" and conclusions are either correct, or authentically from God. Sorry.

How do you discern that my feelings and conclusions are not from God? What do you base this on?

 

[Skripper]

How do you discern that my feelings and conclusions are not from God? What do you base this on?

How do you discern that mine, or anyone else's that may disagree with you, are not? Two can play at that game. How do you explain the fact that thousands, probably millions of Christians, just as sincere as you are, make the exact same claim as you are making . . . yet they disagree with you, both doctrinally and regarding scriptural interpretation? How do you account for that? Are they wrong? Are you?

 

[WarriorAngel]

As for another book reference, I strongly suggest anything written by Scott Hahn. He's easy to understand and 'speaks' Protestant language

Looks like I missed bunches.

Hi Lisa.
I think Skripper is just saying that even the Lord is with you, it is because He loves you....but it is thru the valid Baptism we are all as one.

BUT, I think he is suggesting that you find an authority on scripture to help you make the Bible come alive with fire in understanding.

That is what you want correct??
The absolute truth?

God whispers to all His children, and perhaps pray on what he fully wants of you.
However; there was and still is one infallible teacher in history and always, and it would be the very Church Christ started.

Pray on that. I know He would direct you to the answer....He always does.
BUT first empty yourself of every preconceived notion you have been taught from 'experts' that only have the understanding of sola scriptura which means 'no holds barr' in interpretation of the Bible..

You would be amazed.

Peace!

 

[a_ntv]

For example, if you are walking barefoot, and you step on a sharp rock, you instinctively pull your foot away to avoid worse pain and injury. Our emotions are like those nerve endings in our feet. Guilt over sin is a healthy emotion because it causes us to repent and pull away from worse pain and injury of deeper sin. Peace from listening to God is the same. It is an indication that putting our faith in God will not lead us astray. It is the feeling of confidence that we have in God to lead us exactly where He wants us to go. Discernment is simply identifying the guilt from the peace. The Holy Spirit gives us that discernment.

You are right!
But God is not only a discerniment. (I say not only).
He is also a real people, named Jesus, who is still with us.
And you can know Him. And to know Him means to know the True.
Which was the colour of Jesus's eyes? Only one colour. And this do not depend from us.
God gives signes of Him in your emotions. ok. But you can have more of Him. You can know better Him. But for this you shall forget yourself and look for Him.
And you will find Him, as He is, the one Truth, not polluted by the self. Emotions cant do without you. That why emotions are good but dont lead you away from yourself.

Doctrinal definitions are part of the Truth, so part of Christ: are like the colour of the eyes of Jesus and do Not depend on your self or your feelings.
Historically speaking, there have been so many people who looked only at their discernimet and arrived to lots of different religions. This metod do not works.

 

[Lisa0315]

You are right!
But God is not only a discerniment. (I say not only).
He is also a real people, named Jesus, who is still with us.
And you can know Him. And to know Him means to know the True.
Which was the colour of Jesus's eyes? Only one colour. And this do not depend from us.
God gives signes of Him in your emotions. ok. But you can have more of Him. You can know better Him. But for this you shall forget yourself and look for Him.
And you will find Him, as He is, the one Truth, not polluted by the self. Emotions cant do without you. That why emotions are good but dont lead you away from yourself.

Doctrinal definitions are part of the Truth, so part of Christ: are like the colour of the eyes of Jesus and do Not depend on your self or your feelings.
Historically speaking, there have been so many people who looked only at their discernimet and arrived to lots of different religions. This metod do not works.

Thank You. I appreciate the tone of your post in addressing this topic.

I have stated already that feelings are misleading and I do not rely on feelings in my walk with Christ. I have only said that there is a feeling FOLLOWING my finding the will of God that I describe as peace. This sense of peace is a confirmation only, not a necessity. There have been times when instead of peace or anxiety, I got absolute silence. Sometimes, God veils Himself from us to lead us to greater faith. The confirmation sometimes does not come immediately, but much, much later after we have been tested.

For example, I once wondered if God was pleased with me. I wanted God to be pleased with me, but I could not tell if He was or not. Neither feelings nor logic was of any help on this one. It was just a passing thought. I didn't obsess about it. It just flickered through my head one morning. At lunch, I usually study the Bible, but I often listen to Christian radio while I am actually eating. Anyway, that same day, I turn on the radio and the sermon was, "How to know if God is pleased with you". So, answers come in many forms. Through prayer, through Bible study, through preaching of His word. The peace that I have described is what follows the answer. It is not the answer in of itself.

 

[Lisa0315]

How do you discern that mine, or anyone else's that may disagree with you, are not? Two can play at that game. How do you explain the fact that thousands, probably millions of Christians, just as sincere as you are, make the exact same claim as you are making . . . yet they disagree with you, both doctrinally and regarding scriptural interpretation? How do you account for that? Are they wrong? Are you?

Answering my question with a question is not an answer.

I have not made any statements regarding the discernment of others. I have only talked about mine. Since you are the one who claims to know that my discernment is not from God, I think you should answer the question that I put to you.

 

[Lisa0315]

Looks like I missed bunches.

Hi Lisa.
I think Skripper is just saying that even the Lord is with you, it is because He loves you....but it is thru the valid Baptism we are all as one.

BUT, I think he is suggesting that you find an authority on scripture to help you make the Bible come alive with fire in understanding.

That is what you want correct??
The absolute truth?

God whispers to all His children, and perhaps pray on what he fully wants of you.
However; there was and still is one infallible teacher in history and always, and it would be the very Church Christ started.

Pray on that. I know He would direct you to the answer....He always does.
BUT first empty yourself of every preconceived notion you have been taught from 'experts' that only have the understanding of sola scriptura which means 'no holds barr' in interpretation of the Bible..

You would be amazed.

Peace!

So, you are saying that in order to have the "truth", I must convert to Catholicism?

 

[WarriorAngel]

So, you are saying that in order to have the "truth", I must convert to Catholicism?

Let me ask you a question to ponder...

How many Truths are there?

 

[Lisa0315]

I have a question which I probably should have asked a long time ago. Am I breaking forum rules by having this discussion with y'all in OBOB? Should we move this some place else?

Lisa

 

[Lisa0315]

Let me ask you a question to ponder...

How many Truths are there?

One.

 

[WarriorAngel]

I have a question which I probably should have asked a long time ago. Am I breaking forum rules by having this discussion with y'all in OBOB? Should we move this some place else?

Lisa

I cannot answer for the mods, BUT they have been lenient as long as you are not tearing up Catholicism.

 

[WarriorAngel]

One.

Ok, That is very true..... and since there is one, and Christ never left His Church, and He left His Holy Spirit in the Church....where do you say it would be today?

 

[Lisa0315]

I cannot answer for the mods, BUT they have been lenient as long as you are not tearing up Catholicism.

Well, I have not done that. So, I guess it is okay. For the most part, I have only been answering questions about my own beliefs.

 

[GraceInHim]

I cannot answer for the mods, BUT they have been lenient as long as you are not tearing up Catholicism.

I think it is better left here, seems like a nice discusssion, it will get torn up in another forum

 

[WarriorAngel]

Grace! Yes, it is easy going. So far as I know.