Catholicism Questions

[Happyuser]

So I have a question that been puzzling me lately. Haven't been able to find an answer, maybe a catholic will know the answer. I was wondering why the Vatican have symbols of upside down and bent crosses? That's traditionally consider satanism symbols. Does it mean something different in Catholicism?

 

[Yarddog]

So I have a question that been puzzling me lately. Haven't been able to find an answer, maybe a catholic will know the answer. I was wondering why the Vatican have symbols of upside down and bent crosses? That's traditionally consider satanism symbols. Does it mean something different in Catholicism?

The upside down cross was never a satanic symbol but some have started using it in recent years. The upside down cross is the Cross of St. Peter the Apostle. He was crucified upside down at his request, according to tradition, because he didn't feel worthy to be crucified as Christ had been.

 

[WisdomTree]

What ^he said and because Saint Peter is recognized as the first Bishop of Rome, he is greatly revered. Look up the "Petrine Cross".

 

[football5680]

The upside down cross is for Saint Peter, the first Catholic Pope. When he was going to be crucified he told them to do it upside down because he didn't deserve to die like Jesus did.

 

[WisdomTree]

Under a similar circumstance, his brother Saint Andrew was crucified on an X-shaped cross for the same reason as his brother. Look up the "Saltire".

 

[Happyuser]

Really? It just seems odd to use something that is now meant to mock Jesus(YAHUSHUA). Just noticed the Vatican is filled with bent crucifix and upside down crosses. Seems a bit odd odd to have the two things that satanism uses.

 

[Yarddog]

Really? It just seems odd to use something that is now meant to mock Jesus(YAHUSHUA). Just noticed the Vatican is filled with bent crucifix and upside down crosses. Seems a bit odd odd to have the two things that satanism uses.

So, Christianity has used those symbols for 2000 years and because some Satanist started using them over the past 100 years Christianity should stop using them? Should we stop using the upright cross if they started using it?

Don't define a religious object by what someone else believes, define it the way the Church that uses it does.

 

[Happyuser]

To answer your question, yes. We do that all the time. If a word or term becomes offensive, we stop using it even if it wasn't offensive a hundred years ago. But satanism wouldn't use an upright cross. A broken or upside down cross is a rejection of Jesus(YAHUSHUA).same with a bent or twist cross.
And why display the cross St Peter was executed on. His death had know power.st Peter death didnt atone for sins like Jesus(YAHUSHUA). The only cross that should be on display is the one of our messiah.

 

[Albion]

To answer your question, yes. We do that all the time. If a word or term becomes offensive, we stop using it even if it wasn't offensive a hundred years ago. But satanism wouldn't use an upright cross. A broken or upside down cross is a rejection of Jesus(YAHUSHUA).same with a bent or twist cross.

I disagree with that first part. If an organization has used an emblem and then someone else takes it over, there is every reason not to yield what is yours to people who have stolen the rights to it. We do THAT all the time.

But I'd be interested in examples of these inverted, twisted or bent crosses that you say the Vatican "is filled with," particularly the bent or twisted ones.

The only cross that should be on display is the one of our messiah.

Well, now you are into advocating a personal opinion about crosses in general, which was not part of the thread.

 

[Yarddog]

To answer your question, yes. We do that all the time. If a word or term becomes offensive, we stop using it even if it wasn't offensive a hundred years ago.

If a term becomes offensive to society we stop using it but this is not a term, it is a symbol used by the Church for almost 2000 years to represent humility before Christ. We do not stop using what is good because a few knuckle heads(Satanists) start using a Christian symbol in a warped way. What we should do is educate ourselves so that we don't let Satanists take away our freedom to worship Christ.

But satanism wouldn't use an upright cross.

Why not? They started using the inverted cross which has been around for 2000 years.

A broken or upside down cross is a rejection of Jesus(YAHUSHUA).same with a bent or twist cross.

It may be in "your" mind but Christianity is not concerned with what individuals fail to comprehend about the truth. I'm not sure what broken cross that you refer to but if you can give me a picture I will try to find it.

And why display the cross St Peter was executed on. His death had know power.st Peter death didnt atone for sins like Jesus(YAHUSHUA). The only cross that should be on display is the one of our messiah.

No one says that St. Peter's death had power to atone anything. People though get strength from symbols. Peter's cross symbolizes humility before Christ and that we are not worthy. When people understand the message that a symbol is conveying, they too can focus on trying to be humble before Jesus by looking upon the Petrine Cross.

God Bless
YD

 

[branchofthevine]

To answer your question, yes. We do that all the time. If a word or term becomes offensive, we stop using it even if it wasn't offensive a hundred years ago. But satanism wouldn't use an upright cross. A broken or upside down cross is a rejection of Jesus(YAHUSHUA).same with a bent or twist cross.
And why display the cross St Peter was executed on. His death had know power.st Peter death didnt atone for sins like Jesus(YAHUSHUA). The only cross that should be on display is the one of our messiah.

You know we speak English so you don't need to put (YAHUSHUA) in brackets.

Also, it is a religious symbol, it isn't that important.

 

[maryofoxford]

It's easy to say that these symbols are all over the Vatican, but we've yet to see exactly what you are referring to, so to be able to give you an intelligent answer would be merely speculation.

I am in frequent contact with a Catholic priest that is an exorcist. The broken inverted cross that is in fact a Satanic symbol (although many people do not know this) is the Peace symbol. St. Peter's cross was not broken, it was only inverted. St. Andrew's cross is more like an X, again not broken, or twisted. Although, I've never heard of a twisted cross being a Satanic symbol (I'd have to ask the exorcist). If there is a Satanic symbol, it isn't being used to represent the Catholic Church or a saint.

So we await your examples of the symbols you are referring to. It's also possible that when others see it, they won't even think of it the way you do. People often describe things differently, especially when they look at a decorative element on a building etc.

So I say show the symbols or retract what you are claiming.

Mary (a member of the ORIGINAL Church of Christ, built on a hill OVERLOOKING the 7 hills of Rome, and ACROSS the Tiber River from the ancient city of Rome, also known as Babylon.)

 

[ViaCrucis]

The five pointed star, for a long time, was symbolic of the five wounds of Christ. However the pentacle is now mostly associated with Neo-Paganism (such as Wicca).

An inverse cross originally was simply representative of St. Peter, as others have mentioned, it was St. Peter's cross just as St. Andrew's cross is an 'X' shape. The Scottish saltire is a St. Andrew's cross, as St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland; and as such also forms part of the flat of the United Kingdom (the flags of England, Scotland, and Ireland or more accurately the Cross of St. George, the Cross of St. Andrew, and the Cross of St. Patrick superimposed):

In any event, the point being that just because later on a symbol similar to St. Peter's cross came to be used as a symbol of Satanism and adopted by modern Satanists as an intentional inversion of the Christian cross doesn't change the historic meaning. Neo-Pagans and Satanists don't get to dictate which Christian symbols we may or may not use.

As a good example, the swastika has a very long history in the Vedic religions, among Hindus and Jains. Should Hitler and the Nazi's perversion of the swastika mean that Hindus and Jains can no longer use one of their own religious symbols?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[PaladinValer]

So I have a question that been puzzling me lately. Haven't been able to find an answer, maybe a catholic will know the answer. I was wondering why the Vatican have symbols of upside down and bent crosses? That's traditionally consider satanism symbols. Does it mean something different in Catholicism?

Actually, your premise is faulty. The inverted cross has historically been a symbol of St. Peter; it only got associated with Satanism when Anton LaVey, its founder, entered into the picture. It is often called the "Petrine cross" because St. Peter was put to death by crucifixion...but upsidedown.

Can you show an example of a "bent" cross, please?

 

[Albion]

Right! Some crosses, such as the Papal cross, have lower crossbars that are wider (longer). This not a conventional cross turned upside down, however, although it looks similar to how a conventional cross that has been inverted would appear.

 

[DamianWarS]

As mentioned the upside down cross is the cross of St. Peter and the diagonal cross is the cross of St. Andrew. As for the latter many flags use the St. Andrew's cross the most recognisable probably being the flag of Scotland and the diagonal cross in Britain's Union Jack (which is Scotland). Peter apparently refused to be crucified the same way as Christ as he thought himself to unworthy so at his request the cross put upside down.

I think there is an important difference here between how Christians (Catholics?) value this symbol as opposed to the more recent upside down cross used in Satanism. The cross of St. Peter is a symbol for St. Peter where as the Satanic cross is an inverted cross of Christ. The values exposed here are clear... one looks to Peter (which then points to Christ) and the other is about devaluing Christ. Peter's Cross was thus because he felt himself unworthy to die the same as his Lord the Satanic cross is thus because they wish to specificity deface a cherished symbol of Christ. They may look the same but are from different sources and have different motives.

However I think the church should be cognisant of its misuse and be wise about when and where they show it. Generally speaking putting something upside down is a sign of disrespect so even without the satanic influence an upside down cross is going to look disrespectful and people will misunderstand its meaning.

 

[Rhamiel]

Can you show an example of a "bent" cross, please?

I think he was talking about the cross that Pope John Paul II used, the one on the staff

it shows a very emaciated Jesus and the cross is made out of twisted beams of wood
well it is made out of metal, but it is ment to represent twisted beams of wood

it is a disturbing picture
but maybe the cross should be more disturbing
it was something the romans put together to hang criminals on, do you think they cared if the beams were straight?
it is ment to invoke the suffering of Christ, so that we never forget what He went through for us

 

[Albion]

I think he was talking about the cross that Pope John Paul II used, the one on the staff

it shows a very emaciated Jesus and the cross is made out of twisted beams of wood
well it is made out of metal, but it is ment to represent twisted beams of wood

it is a disturbing picture

I don't find that particular crucifix to be disturbing, but it probaby grabs each person differently. The cross members are not twisted, but rather are shown as if they were logs instead of beams. The crosspiece does dip down on each end, so it is irregular, but that wouldn't constitute an "upside down" cross, I wouldn't think.

Of course we do not know what kind of cross or image was referred to in the OP, but I tend to think it's one of those designs that has several crossmembers of different lengths, like the Cross of Lorraine. With a little imagination, one of these might be thought of as something turned upside down. My gut feeling is that it was not one that features a slanted crosspiece, as in the Eastern Orthodox cross.

 

[VolRaider]

The five pointed star, for a long time, was symbolic of the five wounds of Christ. However the pentacle is now mostly associated with Neo-Paganism (such as Wicca).

An inverse cross originally was simply representative of St. Peter, as others have mentioned, it was St. Peter's cross just as St. Andrew's cross is an 'X' shape. The Scottish saltire is a St. Andrew's cross, as St. Andrew is the patron saint of Scotland; and as such also forms part of the flat of the United Kingdom (the flags of England, Scotland, and Ireland or more accurately the Cross of St. George, the Cross of St. Andrew, and the Cross of St. Patrick superimposed):

In any event, the point being that just because later on a symbol similar to St. Peter's cross came to be used as a symbol of Satanism and adopted by modern Satanists as an intentional inversion of the Christian cross doesn't change the historic meaning. Neo-Pagans and Satanists don't get to dictate which Christian symbols we may or may not use.

As a good example, the swastika has a very long history in the Vedic religions, among Hindus and Jains. Should Hitler and the Nazi's perversion of the swastika mean that Hindus and Jains can no longer use one of their own religious symbols?

-CryptoLutheran

Also, the five-pointed star is a favorite of the Mormons, who have them all over the Salt Lake Temple, which was constructed before the Wiccans got a hold of it.

 

[WisdomTree]

Swastikas are used all over Korea to indicate that a Buddhist temple or something like that is in the area.