Catching the Bouquet--Divination?

[Hetta]

If no one believes catching the bouquet signifies anything, maybe we could argue isn't divination. But if a person there is superstitious and actually believes in this stuff, doesn't doing this support their superstition? What is the substantive difference between historical methods of divination like reading goat livers, examining the flight paths of birds and reading tea leaves and this sort of thing? I don't believe Christians should be throwing pinches of salt over their left shoulder or afraid of curses if a mirror breaks.

MKGal says is better than I ever could - but it is based upon what is in the heart, and I would like to refer to Romans 14. Romans 14 tells us that some can eat, some cannot, and we should not judge those who can against those who cannot. Nobody can control what someone "thinks" when they catch a bouquet. Because one person thinks they are foreseeing the future, does that mean that no bouquets should ever be thrown? Perhaps we should make a ban on throwing bouquets. Or ban salt from tables. Or make pavements all one surface so to prevent people from not stepping on cracks. People will do what they do, believe what they believe, no matter what.

I wouldn't try to catch a bouquet, but I wouldn't avoid one either. I don't believe that catching a bouquet is going to get me married - partly because I am already married, so I would have to divorce my own husband, which ain't going to happen - and I'm not going to avoid cracks in the pavement nor step on them deliberately. It doesn't cross my mind. If it does cross a person's mind, that's on them, not on the bouquet nor the person throwing the bouquet.

 

[LinkH]

MKGal says is better than I ever could - but it is based upon what is in the heart, and I would like to refer to Romans 14. Romans 14 tells us that some can eat, some cannot, and we should not judge those who can against those who cannot. Nobody can control what someone "thinks" when they catch a bouquet. Because one person thinks they are foreseeing the future, does that mean that no bouquets should ever be thrown? Perhaps we should make a ban on throwing bouquets. Or ban salt from tables. Or make pavements all one surface so to prevent people from not stepping on cracks. People will do what they do, believe what they believe, no matter what.

I wouldn't try to catch a bouquet, but I wouldn't avoid one either. I don't believe that catching a bouquet is going to get me married - partly because I am already married, so I would have to divorce my own husband, which ain't going to happen - and I'm not going to avoid cracks in the pavement nor step on them deliberately. It doesn't cross my mind. If it does cross a person's mind, that's on them, not on the bouquet nor the person throwing the bouquet.

In Romans 14, Paul is talking about people doing things that objectively they would be allowed to do. One group was eating meat and giving thanks to God. The other was eating only vegetables in order to honor God.

Throwing the bouquet is not a God-centered activity. The underlying assumption is this tradition, belief, or old wive's tale that the one who catches it gets married. People either believe in it or they don't but participate just for fun, but the underlying assumption is that the game is either doing something lucky to make someone get married, or determine who will be married next by going through this little ritual. If someone believes in it, isn't it divination or else an exercise in trying to get some kind of luck? Either way, why should Christians who don't believe in it participate? For the sake of the people who believe in it, shouldn't they refuse?

Romans 14 also says,
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

There's being diligent about your faith, then there's borrowing trouble.

I don't know of any adult women who think that catching the bouquet means they're next to get married. Most people view it as an activity where they get a pretty neat souvenir, bragging rights for the night, and are one half to a bridal tradition/activity (the lead couple with the guy who caught the garter in the singles dance, or the placing the garter or on the girl who caught the bouquet). I think there's something to be said for tradition, and I rate this right up there with holiday practices and family legacies (putting up a Christmas tree, or for us, mac-and-cheese and rootbeer floats on Christmas Eve). It's part of the experience and may people look forward to it as just a fun little thing to do.

As for things like throwing salt over the shoulder and good luck charms... Again, borrowing trouble. I think the Bible is clearly referring to serious, prolonged acts of divination that are acts of defiance against God's authority. Is throwing salt over the shoulder that? No. Again, it's done more out of custom than belief... Does anybody ever attribute a bad day to spilled salt?

 

[Hetta]

In Romans 14, Paul is talking about people doing things that objectively they would be allowed to do. One group was eating meat and giving thanks to God. The other was eating only vegetables in order to honor God.

Throwing the bouquet is not a God-centered activity. The underlying assumption is this tradition, belief, or old wive's tale that the one who catches it gets married. People either believe in it or they don't but participate just for fun, but the underlying assumption is that the game is either doing something lucky to make someone get married, or determine who will be married next by going through this little ritual. If someone believes in it, isn't it divination or else an exercise in trying to get some kind of luck? Either way, why should Christians who don't believe in it participate? For the sake of the people who believe in it, shouldn't they refuse?

Romans 14 also says,
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So your argument is that bouquets should not be thrown in case they cause others to stumble. I find that sad. And no salt on the tables perhaps in case someone spills it, and that causes another to stumble by throwing it over whichever shoulder.

You may live in your legalistic world. That's your choice.

 

[Hetta]

No mirrors either, lest they break, and someone worry about 7 years of bad luck. No more breeding of black cats. Ban ladders. Make sidewalks uniform - no more paving stones. I can't think of any more superstitions, I'm sure that someone else can.

 

[ValleyGal]

No more ladders, and certainly don't move to a neighbourhood where there might be black cats roaming around! Watch every step so you never step on a spider. Never open an umbrella indoors. And don't even bother getting out of bed on Friday the 13th.

Oops. You already mentioned a couple of those....

 

[Hetta]

Don't pick up any pennies, VG ...

 

[Hetta]

Perhaps we should boycott stores/organizations which refuse to have a 13th floor.

 

[ValleyGal]

And for heaven's sake, don't scratch your palm if it gets itchy or accidentally knock on wood.

lol.

Whatever happened to fun? Why do spiritual repercussions have to be attached to everything? Some things just are the way they are, and there's not a sinful thing about it. I think you hit the nail on the head....legalism. I'm so glad that Christ has come so I can experience freedom!

 

[ValleyGal]

Perhaps we should boycott stores/organizations which refuse to have a 13th floor.

This is hilarious....where I live, there are numerous buildings and hotels that do not have a floor 13. They go from 12 to 14 on the elevator numbering. Do you think we take political correctness just a little too far? But...that is legalism. I think it's funny, and thought it was a trick the builder played on the owner....

 

[LinkH]

This is hilarious....where I live, there are numerous buildings and hotels that do not have a floor 13. They go from 12 to 14 on the elevator numbering. Do you think we take political correctness just a little too far? But...that is legalism. I think it's funny, and thought it was a trick the builder played on the owner....

It some parts of the world, they don't have a 4, 14, 24, etc. Four in Chinese is pronounced the same as 'death' apparently. Some elevators don't have 13 or 14. Sometimes they skip a floor and sometimes they use F for four.

 

[LinkH]

So your argument is that bouquets should not be thrown in case they cause others to stumble. I find that sad. And no salt on the tables perhaps in case someone spills it, and that causes another to stumble by throwing it over whichever shoulder.

Salt serves a purpose other than some magic means of dispelling bad luck. I would say it's a good idea not to have Ouija boards on dinner tables, though.

 

[LinkH]

No mirrors either, lest they break, and someone worry about 7 years of bad luck. No more breeding of black cats. Ban ladders. Make sidewalks uniform - no more paving stones. I can't think of any more superstitions, I'm sure that someone else can.

None of this follows from what I said. This does: no teaching people (e.g. comments to the kids) to be afraid of bad luck after breaking a mirror, or to be afraid of black cats walking across their paths or stepping on cracks.

Some of the stuff they say is bad luck is just common sense. Walking under ladders is dangerous for the person under the ladder who might get hit by falling tools or rubble and for the person on the ladder. Shoes on the table is just dirty and gross. Opening umbrellas inside can knock over a lamp. These things probably got labeled as 'bad luck' as a result of lazy parenting.

I remember hearing a preacher from Hawaii once. He was talking about how some of his relatives were superstitious about this kind of green rock from the big island. They believed the local goddess would hurt them if they took it. Some of his relatives were afraid to take the rock. They said, "Don't take that. You know what happened to Greg Brady." So he just took a piece home and put it on his dresser to show he wasn't afraid of it.

I thought it was funny because that Hawaii episode of the Brady Bunch was one of the few I remember seeing when I was a kid. That's pretty weak evidence to back up the superstition, too.

 

[ChristianGolfer]

IDK, it seems to me like if you call the bouquet toss divination you're actually ascribing more power to it than it would otherwise have. I don't think anyone actually believes the bouquet toss has the power to predict the future. People who participate in it are just having some fun. So, by warning people away from it, you're actually the one who is being superstitious, imho, by implying that it's demonic or that this practice actually has some evil meaning or power to lead people astray.

It's like what Paul said about eating meat sacrificed to idols. If you don't think it means anything, then for you it doesn't. Those were false gods and had no power, so eating meat sacrificed to them meant nothing. Unless you believed that it meant something and then for you it would be wrong.

So, unless you actually believe that the bouquet toss is a form of divination with real power to predict or predestine, there should be no reason to warn people away from it.

 

[Luther073082]

I think that as Christians we need to be really careful of turning quite innocent customs into "works of the devil".

Havn't read the whole thread yet, but QFT on this.

 

[Luther073082]

In Romans 14, Paul is talking about people doing things that objectively they would be allowed to do. One group was eating meat and giving thanks to God. The other was eating only vegetables in order to honor God.

Throwing the bouquet is not a God-centered activity. The underlying assumption is this tradition, belief, or old wive's tale that the one who catches it gets married. People either believe in it or they don't but participate just for fun, but the underlying assumption is that the game is either doing something lucky to make someone get married, or determine who will be married next by going through this little ritual. If someone believes in it, isn't it divination or else an exercise in trying to get some kind of luck? Either way, why should Christians who don't believe in it participate? For the sake of the people who believe in it, shouldn't they refuse?

Romans 14 also says,
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Because it's a celebratory activity? Lots of marriage customs don't have Christian tradition to them.

"Here comes the bride" written by Wagner who had a lot pagan elements to his operas. In fact the church I was married in did not allow this piece to be used.

Rings - Pre-Christian Roman origins.

White Wedding Dress - Queen Victoria - Actually has nothing to do with the wearer's virginity.

Groomsmen and Bridesmaids - It was believed that having several people dressed up the same as the Bride and Groom would confuse evil spirits. Either that or is associated with the old practice in some cultures of bride kidnapping. I don't think this is very likely though as bride kidnapping was not practiced across all cultures, especially in the west.

Taking a poop isn't a Christ centered activity either. Would you suggest Christians should avoid defecation?

 

[dayhiker]

To make a social law that wedding bouquet toss is divination and so they should be abandoned actually gives a nice fun tradition power that it doesn't have now and if we did that to everything that we use to make some reference to what might happen in the future then we would limit our looking into the future and what we need to do to plan for the future. Like studying the stock market to fine out what the future stock market will do. Chartists do that all the time. I don't know much about it, but I look at charts before I decide to b a stock.

Nope I'm against calling anything like this divination. I guess I don't see any of these things as being divination as Satan isn't in bouquets or charts or superstitions. Satan is in things we love more than God. Who bows down to a wedding bouquet? Who offers incense to stock charts and believes they are God ... etc.

 

[LinkH]

IDK, it seems to me like if you call the bouquet toss divination you're actually ascribing more power to it than it would otherwise have. I don't think anyone actually believes the bouquet toss has the power to predict the future. People who participate in it are just having some fun. So, by warning people away from it, you're actually the one who is being superstitious, imho, by implying that it's demonic or that this practice actually has some evil meaning or power to lead people astray.

Some people actually are superstitious. It may be a great minority in the US, but there are people who use Ouija boards and take them seriously. Somehow those psychics with crystal balls are able to make a living. It's not on every street corner, but there is a little niche for it. At a wedding you go to, there may be someone there who is superstitious who didn't watch Scooby Doo growing up-- the 60's version. In some of the remake cartoons the ghosts were real.

It's like what Paul said about eating meat sacrificed to idols. If you don't think it means anything, then for you it doesn't. Those were false gods and had no power, so eating meat sacrificed to them meant nothing. Unless you believed that it meant something and then for you it would be wrong.

You are stopping at the end of chapter 8, where he agrees with one point of some of his readers. The line of reasoning goes through chapter 10 where he offers other arguments against eating meat offered to idols:

1. The death of Israelites in the desert who participated in idolatry.
2. Not wanting his readers to have fellowship with demons.
3. The inconsistency of eat at the Lord's table and at the table of demons.
4. Not provoking the Lord to jealousy.

He does conclude that Christians can eat meat sold in the market or offered at feasts without asking questions, but if someone says the meat is offered to idols, not to eat it.

So, unless you actually believe that the bouquet toss is a form of divination with real power to predict or predestine, there should be no reason to warn people away from it.

If some people believe in it, there is reason to do it. But why would Christians want to participate in divination activities they don't agree with.


Does a divination activity have to be connected to the worship of a specific false deity to be forbidden?

 

[LinkH]

Because it's a celebratory activity? Lots of marriage customs don't have Christian tradition to them.

"Here comes the bride" written by Wagner who had a lot pagan elements to his operas. In fact the church I was married in did not allow this piece to be used.

Wagner probably drunk water and tea, but that doesn't mean we should forbid these activities. It is interesting that your church would not allow that piece. Were they quite limited in what type of music was allowed on the church organ?

In the minds of the people at church, that song has nothing to do with paganism. Do the lyrics say anything about paganism? If Jesus could say not to cast pearls before swine, and Paul could quote "In Him we live, move, and have our being" and the Old Testament can quote Balaam, then we shouldn't forbid repeating non-pagan utterances that happened to be spoken by Gentiles, pagans and diviners. I think the same principle applies to musical compositions.

Rings - Pre-Christian Roman origins.

It's not a ritual related to paganism or divination in our culture. Throwing the bouquet is done with an understanding that the person catching it gets married next-- or that that is the tradition, whether or not the people present believe in it.

White Wedding Dress - Queen Victoria - Actually has nothing to do with the wearer's virginity.

Again, no connection to paganism. That's an interesting fact. It certainly does have something to do with virginity nowadays, or at least it did in the 1900's. I think most Americans would associate white dresses with virginity, even though some people would chuckle at the notion if they thought of it as some brides walked down the aisle.

Groomsmen and Bridesmaids - It was believed that having several people dressed up the same as the Bride and Groom would confuse evil spirits. Either that or is associated with the old practice in some cultures of bride kidnapping. I don't think this is very likely though as bride kidnapping was not practiced across all cultures, especially in the west.

Either way, the evil spirit thing is not a part of contemporary culture or thought

Taking a poop isn't a Christ centered activity either. Would you suggest Christians should avoid defecation?

Not a good example. That's a Biblical practice.

Matthew 15
17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

 

[RDKirk]

Because it's a celebratory activity? Lots of marriage customs don't have Christian tradition to them.

"Here comes the bride" written by Wagner who had a lot pagan elements to his operas. In fact the church I was married in did not allow this piece to be used.

Rings - Pre-Christian Roman origins.

White Wedding Dress - Queen Victoria - Actually has nothing to do with the wearer's virginity.

Groomsmen and Bridesmaids - It was believed that having several people dressed up the same as the Bride and Groom would confuse evil spirits. Either that or is associated with the old practice in some cultures of bride kidnapping. I don't think this is very likely though as bride kidnapping was not practiced across all cultures, especially in the west.

Taking a poop isn't a Christ centered activity either. Would you suggest Christians should avoid defecation?

More significant to me is recognizing those elements of Western culture that were not originally Christian and being willing to let them go rather than fight a "culture war" for them as part of Christianity.

Christmas, for example. If a Christian wants to celebrate Christmas, fine. But I wouldn't bother fighting for it.