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Casting Out Demons and the Name of Jesus

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paulewog

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Okies, I'll post sometime soon. My Bible with the commentary in it (hehe) is in my truck, and my knee hurts to walk right now :p I bumped it hard on the edge of the tailgate of, er, the other pickup truck.

Just for the record, it does not blatantly say it. Nor does, of course, it blatantly say, "God is three in one, a Trinity." ;)
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Originally posted by paulewog
hehe ok, Mr. Andrew =) none taken whatsoever



And what was the Great Commission? "Go forth and heal, speak in tongues, and perform miracles." ? : ) God has the power to do miracles, I am not denying any of that. Although I kinda doubt there have been any raisings of the dead since the 1st century, I do believe there have been some miraculous healings.... hmmmm I may as well clarify exactly what I think about these gifts that are in so much debate, hehe.

Tongues: used to verify the Gospel (a "sign" gift); not given anymore.
Healing: same as above ... as a gift - God can still heal, of course. And does.
Raising of dead: same as above.
Hm, I think those are the 3 main ones. I can't think of... oh yeah
Prophecy: same as above, hehe :)



Oh? Well of course it does not say in John that, "And the canon will be completed and these gifts will not be given anymore." You're right, it's not that obvious. hehe. However, those gifts were given for what purpose?



Yes. Well I would consider verifying the gospel part of encouragement. :) Read verse 22 of the same chapter, by the way.



Actually, I rely on scripture more than any accounts. :) If you'd like, I will type up what one commentary says. Pastor John MacArthur explains it MUCH better than I can. Biblical references and all... last time I did that though people complained about me quoting someone instead of speaking for myself ;) (that was a while ago)



Actually, the Biblical gift of tongues were languages, not babbling or something like that.... ugh, another different thread ;) hehe... back to the main topic...

I have a question - is (or was) casting out demons a gift to only um, the people given the gift, or is it given to all believers?

OK Mr Paulewog,

Let's say the gifts did die out with the apostles. What about what is happening all over the world and even in some churches in America? Are we to assume that satan is behind all of that?

Is it satan that is causing people to be freed from tormenting demons and the freed person now serves Jesus?

Is it satan that is giving back people their sight, their hearing, etc and then allowing them to give the glory to God and their serving Jesus now and also leading others to Him?

When Jesus was accused of doing these things by the power of satan His words were "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Then He asked, "Who's power do you do those things by?" Knowing of course, that they were not doing it at all.

I personally have seen people delivered from demons. I've seen the before and the after.

I saw my best friends leg grow. I personally saw it move.

I have another friend who was born blind. She could see shadows out of one eye and now she sees more than shadows. The other eye she could see nothing, but now she's seeing shadows. Not due to the doctors, but due to being prayed for one night in a service. We're still praying for complete sight.

I've even layed hands on my 15 yr old dog and a very large cyst, that I had been praying over for a few years, one day dissappeared.

If it ceased, as some commentators cleverly explain, then why is it happening?
 
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If I may first introduce myself, I'm Prothumos; and I'm new to this web community. Hello!
Now, on to the topic at hand...
It is my belief, based on several of the scriptures already mentioned,
the the power of God being manifested through believers is:
1 Factual-The great evangelist Smith Wigglesworth, through the power of the Holy Spirit actually raised the dead-this is fact.
2.If the power being used through present-day believers is not real,
then we are not saved at all because the same promises made for enduement of power were spoken by the same people with the same authority of salvation.
3 God loves His children-would it be Father-like to leave a child alone and powerless for the enemy to devour us all.? I Think not.
Thank you for your consideration....peace be to you all.
 
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rapturefish

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Hi Prothumos (by the way what does that mean? Just curious [;)],

1. And many more besides!
2. Hmm, not sure what you're saying here... I think people can be saved and not have the empowerment of the Holy Spirit (see Acts 8:14-17), though for some it happens all at the same time.
3. Luke 11:11-13 backs your statement up.

blessings,
 
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paulewog

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/me hasn't found his MacArthur Bible yet, it's been missing for a few weeks now =(

OK Mr Paulewog,

Who? I've never heard of him ;)

Let's say the gifts did die out with the apostles. What about what is happening all over the world and even in some churches in America? Are we to assume that satan is behind all of that?

I would assume one of two things, by default.
1) Yes, demonic powers
2) Hoaxes
3) Things like healing - could be that a physical pain was related to spiritual something, and the person was spiritually lifted thus the pain subsided, etc. Or, in the cas eof tongues, it doesn't require a special POWER, I dont' think, to make the sounds that peopel call the gift of tongues. =)

But I would try not to assume that right away, hehe...

Is it satan that is causing people to be freed from tormenting demons and the freed person now serves Jesus?

I think this is a subjective question. Was the person really demon possessed?

If yes, couldn't the demon have left just to further the error in the teaching?

Just some thoughts..

Is it satan that is giving back people their sight, their hearing, etc and then allowing them to give the glory to God and their serving Jesus now and also leading others to Him?

I have not heard of many medical documentaries on sight, hearing, etc. And yes, I would not put Satan past looking like an angel of light. Which he does. If he thinks it will suit his purpose somehow, then who knwos what he will do?

When Jesus was accused of doing these things by the power of satan His words were "a house divided against itself cannot stand." Then He asked, "Who's power do you do those things by?" Knowing of course, that they were not doing it at all.

Right. Weren't doing it at all.... =D

I personally have seen people delivered from demons. I've seen the before and the after.

Experience is not above Scripture. Just wanted to say that, hehe.

I saw my best friends leg grow. I personally saw it move.

That's pretty interesting, to say the least :) But again, the above statement above this one...

I have another friend who was born blind. She could see shadows out of one eye and now she sees more than shadows. The other eye she could see nothing, but now she's seeing shadows. Not due to the doctors, but due to being prayed for one night in a service. We're still praying for complete sight.

I've even layed hands on my 15 yr old dog and a very large cyst, that I had been praying over for a few years, one day dissappeared.

If it ceased, as some commentators cleverly explain, then why is it happening?

First of all. HEALING did not cease. The GIFT of healing did.

That said, God can certainly heal miraculously still. But I don't believe, for example, Benny Hinn has the true gift of healing as the apostles did.

Which brings me to one more point. Why did Paul leave someone sick at Miletus? (I forgot his name). Why not heal him?

And, about the thorn in his side - if it was a demon, couldn't Paul have rebuked it?! And if it was physical, couldn't he have healed it?!

It makes you think. :)

I'll get scritpures as soon as I find my Bible :p (that one, that is, I have another that I've been taking to church)
 
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rapturefish

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And what was the Great Commission? "Go forth and heal, speak in tongues, and perform miracles." ? God has the power to do miracles, I am not denying any of that. Although I kinda doubt there have been any raisings of the dead since the 1st century, I do believe there have been some miraculous healings.... hmmmm I may as well clarify exactly what I think about these gifts that are in so much debate, hehe.

Tongues: used to verify the Gospel (a "sign" gift); not given anymore.
Healing: same as above ... as a gift - God can still heal, of course. And does.
Raising of dead: same as above.
Hm, I think those are the 3 main ones. I can't think of... oh yeah
Prophecy: same as above, hehe

John 14, if you read the whole chapter is talking about the coming of the Holy Spirit after Jesus goes. And it is by the Holy Spirit that the kingdom will be revealed through us. What things was Jesus doing? He proclaimed the Kingdom and confirmed it by miracles, and when he says we will do greater things than these it was right after he said to Phillip to believe that Jesus is the son of God or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.

By the way, we must be careful not to lump Acts and 1 Corinthians together as if they were talking about the same context here. Acts was about the early church and how it began to do greater things than Jesus as he said, a sequel if you will to the gospel account in Luke. But 1 Corinthians is a letter written by Paul to a church of believers – and his point was that any spiritual gift in a church context is to be used for the encouragement of the church. Instead it was being abused and other people were not benefiting from the gift of tongues.

The gifts as described in Acts show that the gospel is real and comes with power, I agree. But the gifts as described in 1 Corinthians show another function of the gifts, to build up the church.

Oh? Well of course it does not say in John that, "And the canon will be completed and these gifts will not be given anymore." You're right, it's not that obvious. hehe. However, those gifts were given for what purpose?

Yes. Well I would consider verifying the gospel part of encouragement. :) Read verse 22 of the same chapter, by the way.

I have read this part of 1 Corinthians a number of times because it wasn’t obvious to me what Paul was getting at. His main point is that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church. Remember also that the church was using the gifts in a way that those who did not speak in tongues and unbelievers had no idea what the tonguespeakers were saying. Which is why he writes v22 – because everyone was speaking in tongues and no-one was interpreting Paul said anyone who was not speaking in tongues would think them crazy! But if the tongue was accompanied by the interpetation, be it prophecy, praise, etc. (bear in mind the recurring contrast throughout 14:1-25) then that would be entirely different – it would then be a sign to unbelievers that there really is a God.

As for what you think of the gifts’ relevance today – where does that come from? Does it come from what you’ve learnt in your church, or from the scriptures? I’m curious that you think healing is for today but not prophecy or tongues. Is that for the sake of the canon? If so then why did none of the prophecy of the Corinthian church make it into scripture? And if the New Testament was written by the Apostles then why did the church in Corinth even have prophecy? And why did Paul even encourage it so much?

Actually, I rely on scripture more than any accounts. If you'd like, I will type up what one commentary says. Pastor John MacArthur explains it MUCH better than I can. Biblical references and all... last time I did that though people complained about me quoting someone instead of speaking for myself (that was a while ago)

Well, it’s good that you rely on scripture. ;) I’m sure that John MacArthur would say the same, but the problem is he doesn’t believe the gifts are for today, and as such his interpretation of scripture will be as such. By the way, you can read Jack Deere’s books “Surprised by the Power of the Holy Spirit” and “Surprised by the Voice of God”, he also relies on scripture very much in his response to what John MacArthur says – it’ll surprise you how well he argues that spiritual gifts are for today from the bible. I think it would save us typing their books out here.

Actually, the Biblical gift of tongues were languages, not babbling or something like that.... ugh, another different thread ;)

There is another thread going on that very topic and I’ve spent a lot of time supporting what tongues are and are not from scripture there. Just type “obun deba shunobanata” on your search engine.(yes, that’s the thread name!)

hehe... back to the main topic...

I have a question - is (or was) casting out demons a gift to only um, the people given the gift, or is it given to all believers?

It would seem that it was something all believers could do in Jesus’ name. As the sons of Sceva found out, it was not an incantation or spell to use Jesus’ name but that Jesus’ name has power that demons are dead afraid of.

Blessings,
 
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Andrew

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Hey prothumos

Welcome!

"1 Factual-The great evangelist Smith Wigglesworth, through the power of the Holy Spirit actually raised the dead-this is fact."

Smith Wigglesworth is my favourite. His sermons/books are so awesome that people have started saying that he's just a fictional character. Of course, that's bulldust as far as me and my church are concerned. Anyway, do stick around! :)
 
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rapturefish

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You can read many accounts of "greater things than these on http://www.openheaven.com/

Here's just one example:

Mozambique: Pastor Raised From The Dead
February 15, 2002
"Pastor Lino Andrade leads a church which meets in a mud hut in Gondola, in Manica province," write missionaries Rolland and Heidi Baker from Mozambique. Lino, a widower, lives with his daughter in their small house in Gondola. One day, he became so seriously ill that he could neither eat nor sleep. He could not afford to visit a doctor, so did not even know what was wrong. His condition deteriorated for a month until he died.
Instead of burying him, his daughter called Pastor Joni, who came with four church members to pray. Lino's eyes were rolled back, and his body soon began to smell of decay. Joni had already experienced that people had been raised from the dead through his prayer, so also had confidence this time.
Lino felt himself leave his body, and saw a vision of heaven, but heard God say that he could not yet enter, but should live many more years on earth. He could hear Joni praying loud and fervently. After some hours, he woke, and found himself lying in bed, still very weak and overcome by the smell of decay - but not in the grave.
He soon recovered his strength, and is now back in ministry, more certain than ever that Jesus is alive. The whole church shares his excitement. "If Jesus can raise the dead, he can also solve hunger, poverty and all of Africa's other problems," he says. Lino is one of around ten people who have recently been raised from the dead in Africa, according to the report.
Our best preacher is a 14-year-old...
"Jesus has encouraged us a lot recently," the Bakers continue. "A woman close to death from pneumonia was completely healed through prayer. A man unable to walk for two years was baptised; following prayer, he could stand up and has been able to walk ever since. A woman who had been blind in one eye for 21 years, and could only see very vaguely with the other, is now able to see clearly with both eyes. One of our best preachers is a 14-year-old from the north, with an incredible evangelistic gift; everywhere he goes, people are healed. Last Christmas, we fed 2,000 children and beggars from the slums. After a while, the cook came to us to say that he could not explain how he could have fed so many - he had no idea where the extra chicken portions had come from."
Source: R and H Baker, Iris Ministries, Maputo,
tel (+258)-82-303068,
e-mail rolland@irismin.org
-------
Text (c) DAWN Europe. Redistribution is explicitly allowed as long as the copyright remains intact with the text. Editor: Wolfgang Simson.
 
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Thanks all for the warm welcome!!
rapturefish- in answer to your question re: "prothumos" it's greek for "willing" (as in "the spirit is indeed WILLING; but the flesh weak"
And please allow me to clarify myself on what I said about gifts and salvation:
What I mean is, Jesus, and all the apostles spoke of what it takes to become saved; they also spoke of other believers doing miracles. So;
If what they said concerning salvation is valid, and accepted at face value, then so should the statements that they made concerning spiritual gifts be taken as valid - BOTH sets of statements were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and BOTH sets of statements are made with the authority of God himself.
so, if I believe one, then I HAVE to believe the other. See what I mean?
Sorry if I caused any confusion.
 
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P.S. I'm sorry I meant to put this in my last posting...
As for the casting out of demons-I have done it, (not from a person, but from a room), and my wife SAW AND FELT THEM LEAVE. So....for ME-the gifts are ABSOLUTELY real-I've had too many encountersd with demons, and I KNOW that the power is there for ALL believers TODAY.
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Paulewog,

I'm sincerely baffeled at why you believe we are putting experience above scripture.

As far as I can tell we all have given scripture to back our experiences.

In post #2 I referred to one but did not have the scripture ref. In post #3, force referred to the scripture I gave plus added one.

In post #5, you gave no scripture referrence.

In post #6, Andrew gave scripture ref backing our beliefs. In post #7, I mentioned the same one.

In post #10, I gave another one.

In post #12 Paulewog listed his beliefs but did not give even 1 scripture to back it up. Paulewog also did this in #14 and 16

In #17, Rapturefish gave 2 scriptures.

In #19, Paulewog gave none.
 
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paulewog

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/me will as soon as he finds his Bible :)

I could give you a few references, but it will be much easier after I find the Bible that has the references nicely laid out, as well as a nice explanation. :p

I stillcan't figure out where it went, either.... er ....

/me just found it behind him :p

I brought it in I think last night, ok, here we go......

/me will post it in the next post so he doesn't run out of smileys :)
 
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paulewog

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(you're right, John MacArthur does not believe in these gifts being around either, nor does my church, hehe..... not because we don't want to, but because we don't think the Scriptures support it)

This may be a bit unorganized, but that is because I'm not copying it directly from a commentary on the subject. hehe

2nd Corinthians 12:11-12
I have become a fool in boasting; you have compelled me. For I ought to have been commended by you; for in nothing was I behind teh most eminent apostles, though I am nothing. (12) Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

"Including, but not limited to, "signs and wonders and mighty deeds" (the miracle of the Corinthians' salvation was also a mark of Paul's apostleship, 1st Cor. 9:2). The purpose of miraculous signs was to authenticate teh apostles as God's messengers (cf. Acts 2:22, 43; 4:30; 5:12; 14:3; Rom. 15:18,19; Heb. 2:3,4)."

The verses mentioned there I'll type up...

Acts 2:22, 43
Men of Israel, hear tehse words: JEsus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst... (43)Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles.

Acts 5:12
And through the hands of the apostles many signs and wonders were done among the people. and they were all with one accord in Solomon's Porch.

Acts 14:3
Therefore they stayed there a long time, speaking boldly in the Lord, who was bearing witness to the word of His grace, granting signs and wodners to be done by their hands.

Romans 15:18
For I will not dare to speak of any of thsoe things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient-- (19) in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.

Hebrews 2:3,4
how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of teh Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

About tongues....

1st Corinthians 20 and following... :)

Brethren, do not be children in understanding; hoiwever, in malice be babes, but in understanding be mature. (21) In the law it is written:

With men of other tongues and other lips I will speak to this people; and yet, for all that, they will not hear Me.

says the Lord. (22)Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe. (23)Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind? (24) But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an uninformed person comes in, he is convinced by all, he is convicted by all. (25) And thus the secrets of his heart are revealed; and so, falling down on his face, he will worship God and report that God ist ruly among you.

And now the notes from the commentary..

------------------------
(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3-fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.

(14:22)

Explaining further, he says explicitly that all tongues are for the sake of unbelievers. In other words, that gift has no purpose in the church when everyone present is a believer. And once the sign served its purpose to pronounce judgment or cursing on Israel, and the judgment fell, the purpose ceased along with the sign gift. The blessing of that sign was that God would build a new nation of Jews and Gentiles to be his people (Gal. 3:28) to make Israle jealous and someday repent (See Rom. 11:11, 12, 25-27). The sign was thus repeated when Gentiles were included in teh church (Acts 16:44-46). The sign also gave authority to those who preached both the judgment and blessing (2nd Cor 12:12), including Paul (v.18). But prophesying is...for thsoe who beleive. In the complete opposite way, the gift of prophesying benefits only believers, who are able, by their new natures and the indwelling Holy Spirit, to understand spiritual truth (cf. 2:14; 1 John 2:20,27).

(14:23)
As Paul explains in more detail later (vv.27,28), even for unbelievers, even when the gift of tongues was exercised in its proper time in history, when it was dominant and unconrtrolled in the church, bedlam ensued and the gospel was disgeraced and discredited. out of your mind The Gr. word means to be in an uncontrolled frenzy. When the real gift was used in Acts 2, tyher ewas no madness and everyone understood in his own language. In Corinth, there was charismatic chaos.

14:24, 25 But if all prophesy This means to publicaly proclaim the Word of God. "All" does not mean all at once (see v. 31) but rather means that hypothetically if the cacophony of all the Corinthians could be replaced by all of them preaching the Word, teh effect on unbelivers would be amazingly powerful, the gospel would be honored, and souls would be converted to worshiping God.[/quote]

Whew! My fingers are tired now and I have to start trumpet practice. Have fun reading it :rolleyes: :)
 
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rapturefish

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21 In the Law it is written, "(34) BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
23 Therefore if the whole church assembles together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all;
25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.
26 What is the outcome then, brethren? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment.
30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted;
32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3-fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.

In the context of the passage though, we are not talking about the judgement of Israel. Paul has been talking about the edification of the church and the point of quoting Is.28:11-12 was that tongues were a sign that it was the Lord that was at work here, but if no-one interprets those tongues then the unbeliever will not know that as one would in the case of a prophecy. The Corinthian church made the use of tongues into something that outsiders and ungifted people could not be edified by. And furthermore, if tongues were a sign for the Jews only then why was it in use in Corinth, a cosmoplitan city? And Paul only mentions the unbeliever, not the Jew as the one who is convinced and heart laid bare.

(14:22)

Explaining further, he says explicitly that all tongues are for the sake of unbelievers. In other words, that gift has no purpose in the church when everyone present is a believer. And once the sign served its purpose to pronounce judgment or cursing on Israel, and the judgment fell, the purpose ceased along with the sign gift.

This is an assertion by MacArthur only. Nowhere in the text does it say or even imply that the gift ever ceased. No, the gift was for the sake of unbelievers – Paul contrasts the way it was being misused (everyone speaking in tongues without interpretation, ensuring unbelievers were being missed out) with the way it was supposed to be (prophecy which is understood by the unbeliever, meaning no-one misses out) “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.”(vv24-25)

The blessing of that sign was that God would build a new nation of Jews and Gentiles to be his people (Gal. 3:28) to make Israle jealous and someday repent (See Rom. 11:11, 12, 25-27). The sign was thus repeated when Gentiles were included in teh church (Acts 16:44-46). The sign also gave authority to those who preached both the judgment and blessing (2nd Cor 12:12), including Paul (v.18). But prophesying is...for thsoe who beleive. In the complete opposite way, the gift of prophesying benefits only believers, who are able, by their new natures and the indwelling Holy Spirit, to understand spiritual truth (cf. 2:14; 1 John 2:20,27).

1 Corinthians 14:22-25 is not an easy passage to understand! First Paul says in v22 that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, NOT believers; prophecy is a sign for believers, NOT unbelievers. Then in vv23-25 it seems to suggest the very opposite! That an unbeliever will think tongues are madness, and that an unbeliever will benefit from prophecy – what’s going on here?

Paul’s reference to Is.28:11-12 refers to the foreign tongue as a sign of impending judgement because God will speak to his people but it’s like gibberish to them so they won’t listen and therefore they will face the consequences. THEREFORE tongues as the Coninthians have been using them become like that foreign tongue in Isaiah – a sign from God that cannot be understood, i.e. what a sign means to unbelievers.

But the same sign to believers in Is 28 is something that IS understood and therefore is prophecy and not just a foreign tongue.

So THEREFORE (in vv23-25 Paul now switches to talking about the Corinthians church, whereas in vv21-22 he was talking abt Is.28) If everyone is speaking in tongues in the assembly and no-one is interpreting the unbeliever thinks it’s crazy – he gets nothing, even though it is something. But if everyone prophesies then it is understood and the unbeliever will be converted.

Elsewhere Paul speaks of praying to oneself, and praying in tongues as a form of self-edification and of praise (14:4,14-15,17). So when he says tongues are a sign, he is not saying categorically that that is the only purpose but in the context of a church setting as his main point is the edification of the church.

(14:23)
As Paul explains in more detail later (vv.27,28), even for unbelievers, even when the gift of tongues was exercised in its proper time in history, when it was dominant and unconrtrolled in the church, bedlam ensued and the gospel was disgeraced and discredited. out of your mind The Gr. word means to be in an uncontrolled frenzy. When the real gift was used in Acts 2, tyher ewas no madness and everyone understood in his own language. In Corinth, there was charismatic chaos.

Once again, there is no indication in the text that tongues would ever cease, it’s a paradigm of MacArthur’s. And there is nothing to suggest the gift in Corinth was counterfeit, merely misused. Paul wishes that everyone spoke in tongues (14:5) and says not to forbid it(14:39).

14:24, 25 But if all prophesy This means to publicaly proclaim the Word of God. "All" does not mean all at once (see v. 31) but rather means that hypothetically if the cacophony of all the Corinthians could be replaced by all of them preaching the Word, teh effect on unbelivers would be amazingly powerful, the gospel would be honored, and souls would be converted to worshiping God.

It says prophecy, not preaching the word. Yet another twist from MacArthur’s own bias. How does the word lay bare the secrets of an unbeliever’s heart? No, this verse is saying something of the role of prophecy in the church in regard to unbelievers. The preaching of the Word is not the same thing.

:p :p :p
 
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rapturefish

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Quaffer said:
Let's say the gifts did die out with the apostles. What about what is happening all over the world and even in some churches in America? Are we to assume that satan is behind all of that?

Is it satan that is causing people to be freed from tormenting demons and the freed person now serves Jesus?

Paulewog said:
I would assume one of two things, by default.
1) Yes, demonic powers
2) Hoaxes
3) Things like healing - could be that a physical pain was related to spiritual something, and the person was spiritually lifted thus the pain subsided, etc. Or, in the cas eof tongues, it doesn't require a special POWER, I dont' think, to make the sounds that peopel call the gift of tongues. =)

But I would try not to assume that right away, hehe...

Paulewog, there seems to be an inherent anti-supernatural bias here on your part. Quaffer cited that people served Jesus afterward and you still think it's Satan? This shows an unwillingness to believe the fruit of what has been done.

I think it's more likely that you and MacArthur are not simply trying to be scriptural in your rejection of spiritual gifts for today, but also not even allowing for the possibility. I hope you will think differently.

blessings,
 
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wblastyn

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I would assume one of two things, by default.
1) Yes, demonic powers
2) Hoaxes
3) Things like healing - could be that a physical pain was related to spiritual something, and the person was spiritually lifted thus the pain subsided, etc. Or, in the cas eof tongues, it doesn't require a special POWER, I dont' think, to make the sounds that peopel call the gift of tongues. =)
Of course, that's what the Pharisee's said about Jesus - that He was doing miracles using the power of Satan, which was when Jesus said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit was the unforgivable sin.

My dad, as well as many people in my church, speak in tongues, they are not performing some hoax and it isn't a psychological thing, when people speak in tongues they don't "make sounds" they speak in an unknown language, or "the language of angels" as Paul calls it.

How do you explain people who have no experience in tongues, yet when praying to God, reading their Bible or praising God suddenly start speaking in tongues?  Do you think Satan possessed them while they worship God? 

Btw, that's 3 things not 2 :)
 
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paulewog

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If the language is unknown and no one can translate it.... then read what Paul said about that ;)

And yes, I know it's 3 things, I um, added the last one after I wrote the top... =D hehe, but forgot to change it to 3.

Hey paulewog,

Hey there =D

what does your heart say abt the gifts? do you really (deeeeeeep down inside) believe its all gone? do you in your heart wish that the gifts still existed?

I do. But what does that matter, it only matters what God thinks... no matter how I feel, or what I've ... or at least think I have ... seen, etc.

Paulewog, there seems to be an inherent anti-supernatural bias here on your part. Quaffer cited that people served Jesus afterward and you still think it's Satan? This shows an unwillingness to believe the fruit of what has been done.

Antiisupernatural? I've known people that were supernaturally ... healed, or at least sustained. For example, my grandma was said to have two months or so to live, but lived two years. I'm not saying that all these people aer demon possessed themselves or something. I do think they are mistaken....

I think it's more likely that you and MacArthur are not simply trying to be scriptural in your rejection of spiritual gifts for today, but also not even allowing for the possibility. I hope you will think differently.

Hehe, well, since I believe that the Scriptures show they do not exist anymore, then yes, I would say that I am quite un-allowing of the possibility ;)

I said:

(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE

would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3- fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.

In the context of the passage though, we are not talking about the judgement of Israel.

But the verse quoted talks about judgment. Was Paul using a verse out of context himself?

Paul has been talking about the edification of the church and the point of quoting Is.28:11-12 was that tongues were a sign that it was the Lord that was at work here, but if no-one interprets those tongues then the unbeliever will not know that as one would in the case of a prophecy. The Corinthian church made the use of tongues into something that outsiders and ungifted people could not be edified by. And furthermore, if tongues were a sign for the Jews only then why was it in use in Corinth, a cosmoplitan city? And Paul only mentions the unbeliever, not the Jew as the one who is convinced and heart laid bare.

Was it really used in Corinth? It seems as though they THOUGHT they had the gift of tongues, but it sure sounds like Paul didn't think so.

This is an assertion by MacArthur only. Nowhere in the text does it say or even imply that the gift ever ceased. No, the gift was for the sake of unbelievers – Paul contrasts the way it was being misused (everyone speaking in tongues without interpretation, ensuring unbelievers were being missed out) with the way it was supposed to be (prophecy which is understood by the unbeliever, meaning no- one misses out) “But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; the secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you.”(vv24-25)

I will, as soon as I find my notebook, have more verses for the use of the gift of tongues. :) I am not sure where the notebook went, hehe. Probably in my bookshelf, that's not saiyng much though...

Paul’s reference to Is.28:11-12 refers to the foreign tongue as a sign of impending judgement because God will speak to his people but it’s like gibberish to them

Wait! Where did it say it was like GIBBERISH? As far as I know, it only said they weren't going to understand.

so they won’t listen and therefore they will face the consequences.

I probably wouldn't listen to gibberish either =D

But the same sign to believers in Is 28 is something that IS understood and therefore is prophecy and not just a foreign tongue.

Could you give an example where speaking in tongues was used for believers? I remember Pentecost, where they preached in different tongues.... but I don't really remember many places where it was used in the church, not as a sign.

Elsewhere Paul speaks of praying to oneself, and praying in tongues as a form of self-edification and of praise (14:4,14-15,17). So when he says tongues are a sign, he is not saying categorically that that is the only purpose but in the context of a church setting as his main point is the edification of the churc.

I wonder how praying to oneself in a tongue is edifying to the church? :) There's one very interesting thin to notice in this whole passage. Paul talks about "tongues" and "a tongue." Plural and singular. "Tongue" is used for the false 'gift' because there is not more than one language of gibberish, hehe. It is very interesting however, even in the first few verses of 1st Corinthians 14...

(2) For he wh ospeaks in a tongue does not speak to men... (4)He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself... (5) I wish that you all spok with tongues.... for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues... (6) But now, brethren, if I comne to you speaking with tongues....

Is this little difference in "a tongue" and "tongues" minor? And, even more so, verse 2 ("For he who speaks in a tongue does nto speak to men but to God") .... the Greek has no definite article before "God." So, it would be better translated, "a god." The Bible does not, actually, record any place where anyoen spoke to God in anything other than a human language =)

And, also, Paul is sarcastic (yay!), so you have to watch for that in his writings.

quote:

Once again, there is no indication in the text that tongues would ever cease, it’s a paradigm of MacArthur’s. And there is nothing to suggest the gift in Corinth was counterfeit, merely misused. Paul wishes that everyone spoke in tongues (14:5) and says not to forbid it(14:39).

See above, hehe

It says prophecy, not preaching the word. Yet another twist from MacArthur’s own bias.

Oh? I think not.... hehe. It's actually what the word means.

How does the word lay bare the secrets of an unbeliever’s heart?

Quite easily. Isn't the Word of God powerful? Are you saying that merely preaching the Word is not enough to make someone believe?

And it lays bare the secrets because it shows how sinful the unbeliever is! The Bible very clearly convicts people.

No, this verse is saying something of the role of prophecy in the church in regard to unbelievers. The preaching of the Word is not the same thing.

Ah, actually, it is. To prophesy merely means "to proclaim" .. or, to proclaim the Word of God. That is all that the prophets were doing! They were proclaiming the Word of God. Yes, God spoke directly to them, but t was still the Word of God.

So, isn't the Bible the Word of God?

That's all that word means. And actually, a prophet is merely someone who proclaims.

:)
 
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paulewog

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By the way, about "Satan suddenly possessing them."

I know that people can force themselves, merely physically, to speak in a gibberish type thingy. So it could just be that. They wanted to speak in tongues so badly (perhaps because that is sometimes a "requirement" that some people say is needed for salvation), so they did. I am not at ALL saying that everyone that speaks in 'tongues' is demon possessed or ANYTHING like that. :) Especially if they are true believers. Demons can't demon-possess someone that is already "possessed" with the Holy Spirit :)
 
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