Casting Out Demons and the Name of Jesus

[Smilin]

Originally posted by paulewog
Okies. Here's my little intro post, and then my little opinion

Please, nobody post that doesn't even believe in angels and demons

Ok then, my opinion.

I do not think we have the power to cast out demons, in any way. That gift was given to the apostles (along with drinking poison - I don't hear too much about people doing that...). And certainly, it's not the word Jesus that has any power. I can yell out Jesus in any language I want, what good will it do? It's a phonetic combination used as a name.

I could CALL upon the name of Jesus. Meaning, I could PRAY to Jesus. And, that is what I would do, too. That's our spiritual weapon, if you will. Prayer

We ourselves have no power over demons.

/me waits around for Force to reply.

Paulewog...hold those thoughts till Monday...KK? (When I'm up to par)

 

[paulewog]

Er, what?

/me doesn't knwo what Smilin means

 

[Smilin]

Originally posted by paulewog
Er, what?

/me doesn't knwo what Smilin means

/me operating on battery reserves today...will feel better in a day or so.  Keep the thread going..I have much to say on your subject.  Thanks for the thread..but you must give me time.

 

 

[paulewog]

/me understand now.

Well I'm not gonna kill the thread anytime soon I don't think

Besides. It's a nice friendly discussion.

 

[Andrew]

"I know that people can force themselves, merely physically, to speak in a gibberish type thingy. So it could just be that. They wanted to speak in tongues so badly (perhaps because that is sometimes a "requirement" that some people say is needed for salvation), so they did."

That's what I used to think too. I thot maybe its very easy to just fake it and produce something that sounds 'authentic'. That was until I tried to get 4 close and sincere Christian friends to get Baptised with the Holy Ghost and then to just step out in faith and 'babble'. Till today they still can't -- to them its like the most difficult thing to do in the world.

Now I'm talking abt sincere Christian friends who wanted the gift, and not those out to prove a point that they can copy it. Of course, someone who has studied the subject and memorised some sounds he heard can always fake it to prove his point. But God knows your heart, so who are you trying to kid.

 

[rapturefish]

I'm going to respond in pieces, because it's quite time-consuming to do it all at once.

quote:
Paul’s reference to Is.28:11-12 refers to the foreign tongue as a sign of impending judgement because God will speak to his people but it’s like gibberish to them

Wait! Where did it say it was like GIBBERISH? As far as I know, it only said they weren't going to understand.

Isaiah 28:

7 And these also stagger from wine
and reel from beer:
Priests and prophets stagger from beer
and are befuddled with wine;
they reel from beer,
they stagger when seeing visions,
they stumble when rendering decisions.
8 All the tables are covered with vomit
and there is not a spot without filth.

9 "Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule [1] ;
a little here, a little there."

11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"-
but they would not listen.
13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there-
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.


[1] 28:10 Hebrew / sav lasav sav lasav / kav lakav kav lakav (possibly meaningless sounds; perhaps a mimicking of the prophet's words); also in verse 13

That's gibberish, meaningless sounds.

 

[rapturefish]

quote:
It says prophecy, not preaching the word. Yet another twist from MacArthur’s own bias.

Oh? I think not.... hehe. It's actually what the word means.

quote:
How does the word lay bare the secrets of an unbeliever’s heart?

Quite easily. Isn't the Word of God powerful? Are you saying that merely preaching the Word is not enough to make someone believe?

And it lays bare the secrets because it shows how sinful the unbeliever is! The Bible very clearly convicts people.

quote:
No, this verse is saying something of the role of prophecy in the church in regard to unbelievers. The preaching of the Word is not the same thing.

Ah, actually, it is. To prophesy merely means "to proclaim" .. or, to proclaim the Word of God. That is all that the prophets were doing! They were proclaiming the Word of God. Yes, God spoke directly to them, but t was still the Word of God.

So, isn't the Bible the Word of God?

That's all that word means. And actually, a prophet is merely someone who proclaims.

Proclaims what? Whatever the Lord gives him to pass on. That includes the bible, our final authority on whether anything else is from God or not. But the bible is not all of God's words. He speaks to individuals today too.

We seem to have a divergence of definitions here. You are suggesting PROPHECY=PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD=THE BIBLE=THE SECRETS OF A BELIEVER'S HEART. No, it doesn't always add up that way. Prophecy vs Teaching are different. Prophecy is spontaneously revealed revelation from God that is passed on whoever is supposed to receive it. Teaching is expounding the written Word of God contained in the bible to whoever is supposed to receive it. It's not the same thing.

In the old testament prophets gave spontaneously revealed words from God and their words were tested either as being from God or not. Although some of it became scripture we have cases where the prophecy was not scripture but the revealing of a believer's heart motives, personal words to people.

Judges 4:6,9
Deborah the prophetess tells Barak that God commands him to take an army because God will give the enemy commander, Sisera, into his hands. When Barak hedges and wants her to go with him, she accepts but gives another word, that because of the way he was going about this the honour would go to a woman and not him. Sure enough the prophetic word was fulfilled when Jael, a woman nailed a tent peg through Sisera's head and killed him. The honor went to her in the song (5:24-27). This was a personal word to Barak.

2 Samuel 12
Nathan the prophet rebukes David as God revealed the adulterous relationship with the wife of Uriah. It was a personal word to David. David's secret was laid bare and he repented of his sin.

The bible is full of cases where the message was for individual people but not scriptural canon like the writings of Isaiah, etc. Now scripture can be revealed by the Holy Spirit and speak powerfully to a person but there's nowhere to suggest that it's the only way. There's lots of examples in the bible where people heard a word revealed to them and they passed the message on and it revealed secrets in their hearts.

If I were David and I took prophecy only to mean teaching then I suppose Nathan wouldn't have known the adultery David was guilty of. He would probably have just been reading the Pentateuch and something about adultery would have been read. It could have worked that way but that's not how the story went. In the end, the specific word hit home in a way that scripture wouldn't have because the prophetic word was specifically laying bare David's secret in detail.

The bible is the greatest book ever and I'll never belittle it. But Paul says to eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially prophecy. He mentions prophets as distinct from teachers in vv27-28 and it is even put a rung above teachers. He wasn't being repetitive. God can and does speak through the Word, but that's not the only way he uses. Prophecy that is consistent with the word of God can do things scripture cannot do. How could Joseph and Mary know that her pregnancy was of God? They could not have known in the scriptures. How could they know to flee to Egypt? Scripture didn't help them there but a dream did.

The bible alone can bring someone to salvation. But that's not the only way God can speak to people. The samaritan woman at the well was saved when Jesus revealed a secret of hers that he could not have known except by God's revelation to him.

blessings,

 

[rapturefish]

Gee, this is still time-consuming!

Paulewog wrote:
(14:21) In a freely rendered quotation from Is. 28:11,12, Paul explains that centuries earlier the Lord had predicted that one day HE

would use men of other tongues, that is, foreigners speaking unknown languages, as a sign to unbelieving Israel, who "will not hear Me." These "other tongues" are what tehy knew as teh gift of languages, given solely as a sign to unbelieving Israel. That sign was 3- fold: cursing, blessing, and authority. To emphasize the cursing,. Paul quoted Isaiah's words of warning to Judah of the judgement from Assyria. The leaders thought his words were too simple and rejected him. The tiem would come, the prophet said, when they would hear Assyrian, a language they could not understand, indicating judgment. Jeremiah spoke similarly of the Babylonians who were also to come and destroy Judah. When the apostles spoke at Pentecost in all thsoe foreign languages, the Jews should have known that the judgment prophesied and historically fulfilled first by the Assyrians then by the Babylonian captivity was about to fall on them again for their rejectino of Christ, including the destruction of Jerusalem (AD 70) as it had happened in 586 BC, under Babylonian power.

quote:
In the context of the passage though, we are not talking about the judgement of Israel.

But the verse quoted talks about judgment. Was Paul using a verse out of context himself?

I'm not sure I actually disagree with you on this one. People always quote to make a point, and Paul is drawing a parallel, he is not quoting out of context. From the Isaiah passage the point was that the prophets were drunk, speaking as if they were speaking to little infants with gibberish-like sounds (v9). So even though there was a genuine word there all people would hear was "sav lasav sav lasav, kav lakav kav lakav".

In the context of 1 Corinthians though we are talking about the edification of the church, not the judgement of Israel. The Is.28 passage was just to make a point - just like in Is 28, people were using tongues such that no-one else could understand the meaning, just like talking to infants. Just like those that couldn't understand in Is 28, they missed out on God's words, which would have been good words to them had they understood. You could draw the parallel that the unbelievers in 1 Corinthians were in a sense under judgement because they would have missed out on God's words and not be converted.

 

[rapturefish]

quote:
Paulewog, there seems to be an inherent anti-supernatural bias here on your part. Quaffer cited that people served Jesus afterward and you still think it's Satan? This shows an unwillingness to believe the fruit of what has been done.

Antiisupernatural? I've known people that were supernaturally ... healed, or at least sustained. For example, my grandma was said to have two months or so to live, but lived two years. I'm not saying that all these people aer demon possessed themselves or something. I do think they are mistaken....

How do you tell whether it's real or not then? That one encounters such things cannot merely be discounted with one "It's not scripture, experience doesn't count". Experience doesn't count for nothing - it is evidence of the Bible's truth being relevant today.

e.g. People who believe in a literal 6,xxx year earth age (by taking a non-gapped genealogy year count) simply ignore the evidence of the earth being much older. They know the bible isn't wrong, but their interpretation of what they think it says need a re-examination in the light of evidence. Mormons who believe the account of the Book of Mormon have to contend for the overwhelming absence of evidence of any Nephites or Jaredites even existing in the Americas. Their book is a forgery by Joseph Smith because the physical evidence isn't there. That's really different to the bible though - we have evidence of many cities and places mentioned in the bible.

All this is to say that demons have not ceased to possess people after the death of the last apostle, and neither should we be left as orphans without the authority and power of Jesus to drive them away. We believe in God, in Jesus being both God and man, we believe in the Holy Spirit even though we can't see Him - why should we not believe demons exist and still possess people?

blessings,

 

[rapturefish]

By the way, what's the deal with the orange hat?

 

[paulewog]

My orange hat? It's great isn't it Hehe, I don't know. I wore it to Mexico on our youth mission trip thing, and it was very popular (so much for not standing out...) and a legend by the time we got back. So I wear it. hehe

Now I'm talking abt sincere Christian friends who wanted the gift, and not those out to prove a point that they can copy it. Of course, someone who has studied the subject and memorised some sounds he heard can always fake it to prove his point. But God knows your heart, so who are you trying to kid.

Since when do we acquire spiritual gifts? Eek, this could get into a big discussion about "baptism" and "filling" of the Holy Spirit

I don't undersatnd what your point was with Isaiah 28, sorry ... I am simply confoozled as to what you meant with that, hehe

Proclaims what? Whatever the Lord gives him to pass on. That includes the bible, our final authority on whether anything else is from God or not. But the bible is not all of God's words. He speaks to individuals today too.

I disagree with that.... no new revalations

We seem to have a divergence of definitions here. You are suggesting PROPHECY=PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD=THE BIBLE=THE SECRETS OF A BELIEVER'S HEART. No, it doesn't always add up that way. Prophecy vs Teaching are different. Prophecy is spontaneously revealed revelation from God that is passed on whoever is supposed to receive it. Teaching is expounding the written Word of God contained in the bible to whoever is supposed to receive it. It's not the same thing.

Prophecy and TEACHING, yes. But prophecy and PREACHING, no. Preaching is proclaiming the Word of God, as is Prophecy. That is simply what the Greek word means

In the old testament prophets gave spontaneously revealed words from God and their words were tested either as being from God or not. Although some of it became scripture we have cases where the prophecy was not scripture but the revealing of a believer's heart motives, personal words to people.

Yes... well, now that we have all those instances, I think teh Bible lays bare the hearts today.

How else were you convicted when you received Christ? Did someone come to you and reveal to you the exact sins of your heart without the Bible? Or did you learn of your sinfulness through the Bible?

The Bible convicts me. It's full of convictions, heh. It convicts everyone. It even deals with specific sins (pride, hate, lust, etc). People can read the Bible and see themselves.

Gee, this is still time-consuming!

Yeah it is. In fact, after a few more posts, I'll probably simply stop, because it takes so long =D hehe... we'll see...

In the context of 1 Corinthians though we are talking about the edification of the church, not the judgement of Israel. The Is.28 passage was just to make a point - just like in Is 28, people were using tongues such that no-one else could understand the meaning, just like talking to infants. Just like those that couldn't understand in Is 28, they missed out on God's words, which would have been good words to them had they understood. You could draw the parallel that the unbelievers in 1 Corinthians were in a sense under judgement because they would have missed out on God's words and not be converted.

So is it just a coincidence that the Israelites were judged again?

How do you tell whether it's real or not then? That one encounters such things cannot merely be discounted with one "It's not scripture, experience doesn't count". Experience doesn't count for nothing - it is evidence of the Bible's truth being relevant today.

Yes it can. Experience doesn't count for anything. It may be evidence, but it may not be. There are many false miracles being done today. satan has power to do signs and wonders too. Or at least fake it. In hmmm the end of 1st Peter, I believe, Peter says that we have a "more sure Word of Prophecy" .... more sure than even his experience on the Mount of Transfiguration.

e.g. People who believe in a literal 6,xxx year earth age (by taking a non-gapped genealogy year count) simply ignore the evidence of the earth being much older.

Not really =D

They know the bible isn't wrong, but their interpretation of what they think it says need a re-examination in the light of evidence.

Not really =D

Mormons who believe the account of the Book of Mormon have to contend for the overwhelming absence of evidence of any Nephites or Jaredites even existing in the Americas. Their book is a forgery by Joseph Smith because the physical evidence isn't there. That's really different to the bible though - we have evidence of many cities and places mentioned in the bible.

Complete agreement there. Joseph Smith had to change the Bible to fit his man-made religion, basically. Which makes it very, very hard to witness to Mormons, sadly.

All this is to say that demons have not ceased to possess people after the death of the last apostle, and neither should we be left as orphans without the authority and power of Jesus to drive them away.

I do not believe we have the authority nor power to drive demons away... however...

We believe in God, in Jesus being both God and man, we believe in the Holy Spirit even though we can't see Him - why should we not believe demons exist and still possess people?

And never did I say that demons do not possess people. Demons do not possess BELIEVERs.

And I don't think we have the power to cast demons out - that was a gift. We can, however, pray.... which is very powerful indeed.

 

[Andrew]

"Since when do we acquire spiritual gifts?"

God tells us to earnestly desire the best gifts. We acquire by 1.Asking 2.Faith.

 

[Andrew]

paulewog,

u still have not answered my earlier question (or did u somewhere?)

What does your heart say about the gifts? Do you wish it still exists and that you had some of them so you cld build up the church?

 

[rapturefish]

My orange hat? It's great isn't it Hehe, I don't know. I wore it to Mexico on our youth mission trip thing, and it was very popular (so much for not standing out...) and a legend by the time we got back. So I wear it. Hehe

That’s cool I had a gotee when doing a short-term mission trip to Tasmania (some Australians consider it another country!) and when they painted my face for some mines some would say my face looked a little like Australia too.

quote:
I don't undersatnd what your point was with Isaiah 28, sorry ... I am simply confoozled as to what you meant with that, hehe

Er, I agree with you mostly… let’s leave it at that since I’m nearly confused myself

quote:
Proclaims what? Whatever the Lord gives him to pass on. That includes the bible, our final authority on whether anything else is from God or not. But the bible is not all of God's words. He speaks to individuals today too.

I disagree with that.... no new revalations

This needs clarification… we have no scripture additions today, the canon is closed, yes. No new teaching outside the bible. But the kinds of prophecy that does exist today always has to be consistent with scripture.

Usually they refer to things that may happen in the future, encouragement, exhortation, sometimes loving rebuke, words to the church or words to individuals as per previous examples by Deborah, Nathan, etc. Their words of prophecy as recorded in the bible were of a kind that did not contribute to any teaching in the bible but were individual words to individual people. For example, how would the prophetic rebuke to David relate to me? It related specifically to David’s adultery.

Therefore to illustrate, say if I was to make a decision of whether I should go to Washington or stay in Conneticut the bible doesn’t really help me outside of godly guidelines not to run away like Jonah, etc. But sometimes God has a certain plan and will through a prophetic word tell you to stay even though the choice seems arbitrary.

quote:
We seem to have a divergence of definitions here. You are suggesting PROPHECY=PREACHING THE WORD OF GOD=THE BIBLE=THE SECRETS OF A BELIEVER'S HEART. No, it doesn't always add up that way. Prophecy vs Teaching are different. Prophecy is spontaneously revealed revelation from God that is passed on whoever is supposed to receive it. Teaching is expounding the written Word of God contained in the bible to whoever is supposed to receive it. It's not the same thing.

Prophecy and TEACHING, yes. But prophecy and PREACHING, no. Preaching is proclaiming the Word of God, as is Prophecy. That is simply what the Greek word means

Preaching involves the communication of the written Word to people; prophecy takes spontaneously revealed words to people – the prophetic content is subject to the Word. Read the major and minor prophets and you’ll see that a lot of their writings constitute things revealed to them by God of the future of Israel & Judah, as well as the endtimes and pleas for the people to return to God. They could not get that stuff from the Law, but their words are from God. Why is it then that when the scriptures are mentioned in Jesus’ day that they are called “The Law and the Prophets”?

quote:
In the old testament prophets gave spontaneously revealed words from God and their words were tested either as being from God or not. Although some of it became scripture we have cases where the prophecy was not scripture but the revealing of a believer's heart motives, personal words to people.

Yes... well, now that we have all those instances, I think teh Bible lays bare the hearts today.

How else were you convicted when you received Christ? Did someone come to you and reveal to you the exact sins of your heart without the Bible? Or did you learn of your sinfulness through the Bible?

The Bible convicts me. It's full of convictions, heh. It convicts everyone. It even deals with specific sins (pride, hate, lust, etc). People can read the Bible and see themselves.

David could not have been convicted of an adulterous relationship with the wife of Uriah from the Law then, not so specifically. Joshua could not have known whether he would be successful in his conquests if he just looked at the Law. He had to seek God’s advice whether to go and attack a certain enemy or not and it was somehow revealed to him.

I’m not saying the Bible cannot convict a person – I’m saying that it cannot lay bare our heart’s secrets the way prophecy did and still does.

quote:
Gee, this is still time-consuming!

Yeah it is. In fact, after a few more posts, I'll probably simply stop, because it takes so long =D hehe... we'll see...

[*rapturefish realises he’s fasting but not by choice due to post response overtime*]

quote:
In the context of 1 Corinthians though we are talking about the edification of the church, not the judgement of Israel. The Is.28 passage was just to make a point - just like in Is 28, people were using tongues such that no-one else could understand the meaning, just like talking to infants. Just like those that couldn't understand in Is 28, they missed out on God's words, which would have been good words to them had they understood. You could draw the parallel that the unbelievers in 1 Corinthians were in a sense under judgement because they would have missed out on God's words and not be converted.

So is it just a coincidence that the Israelites were judged again?

In the context of the letter to the Corinthian church it wasn’t the main point – unbelievers were missing out on edification the way tongues were being used. The Corinth church weren’t all Jews either, it’s like Hong Kong, a whole mix of cultures.

quote:
How do you tell whether it's real or not then? That one encounters such things cannot merely be discounted with one "It's not scripture, experience doesn't count". Experience doesn't count for nothing - it is evidence of the Bible's truth being relevant today.

Yes it can. Experience doesn't count for anything. It may be evidence, but it may not be. There are many false miracles being done today. satan has power to do signs and wonders too. Or at least fake it. In hmmm the end of 1st Peter, I believe, Peter says that we have a "more sure Word of Prophecy" .... more sure than even his experience on the Mount of Transfiguration.

Where’s the reference? As for false miracles, etc. I don’t doubt that it happens and there are abuses. But there’s genuine stuff too and experience needs to be filtered through scripture. And scripture supports the kind of miracles being done right throughout the bible and in the early church. The revival accounts show the same amazing things being done today as in the early church. Are they fake? Or is it of God? See how people are on fire for God and free from their pain and afflictions – there’s the proof.

quote:
e.g. People who believe in a literal 6,xxx year earth age (by taking a non-gapped genealogy year count) simply ignore the evidence of the earth being much older.

Not really =D

quote:
They know the bible isn't wrong, but their interpretation of what they think it says need a re-examination in the light of evidence.

Not really =D

quote:
Mormons who believe the account of the Book of Mormon have to contend for the overwhelming absence of evidence of any Nephites or Jaredites even existing in the Americas. Their book is a forgery by Joseph Smith because the physical evidence isn't there. That's really different to the bible though - we have evidence of many cities and places mentioned in the bible.

Complete agreement there. Joseph Smith had to change the Bible to fit his man-made religion, basically. Which makes it very, very hard to witness to Mormons, sadly.

If something in your experience does not add up to what you thought the bible says, then there are a few possibilities:

The bible is wrong (This is not possible)
Our interpretation is wrong
Our application is wrong
The experience is a deception

If the experience is verifiable and found to bear the fruits of the gospel, then it is not of Satan. And if the bible is infallible then the fault lies with our interpretation &/or application.

quote:
All this is to say that demons have not ceased to possess people after the death of the last apostle, and neither should we be left as orphans without the authority and power of Jesus to drive them away.

I do not believe we have the authority nor power to drive demons away... however...

I said the authority and power of Jesus, in whose name the demons flee. Like all spiritual gifts it’s not us doing it, it’s the Spirit working through us.

quote:
We believe in God, in Jesus being both God and man, we believe in the Holy Spirit even though we can't see Him - why should we not believe demons exist and still possess people?

And never did I say that demons do not possess people. Demons do not possess BELIEVERs.

And I don't think we have the power to cast demons out - that was a gift. We can, however, pray.... which is very powerful indeed.

My, and this was the original subject of this thread! Partly my fault, I guess. I believe demons cannot POSSESS believers. But we have accounts of Christians who are DEMONIZED – i.e. they are still Christians but thanks to the allowance on their part for sin to stay in their lives and remain undealt with demons have been allowed a measure of influence.

The bible is not wrong. The experiences do happen. It comes down to how we interpret it without twisting the Bible and realizing the experience is valid.

Phew!

 

[wblastyn]

My, and this was the original subject of this thread! Partly my fault, I guess. I believe demons cannot POSSESS believers. But we have accounts of Christians who are DEMONIZED – i.e. they are still Christians but thanks to the allowance on their part for sin to stay in their lives and remain undealt with demons have been allowed a measure of influence.

The bible is not wrong. The experiences do happen. It comes down to how we interpret it without twisting the Bible and realizing the experience is valid.

Yes, people tend to "assume God". They think God will not allow bad things to happen because we are saved, etc but this is not how God works, He allows terrible things to happen to believers all the time, usually with a good outcome.

The people of Israel assumed God would protect them from the Babylonians and Assyrians no matter what, and we all know how that turned out.

People assume God would not allow demons to oppress believers, yet they do.

Or they try to rationalize God, they think God is all loving, so He would not allow "X" to happen to a person because it would mean He does not love them, even though event "X" may have a good outcome for the believer.

God does not give us what we WANT, but what we NEED.

 

[paulewog]

Andrew - I did answer...

I think it's about two of my posts ago....

Holy pickels, big post =)

That’s cool I had a gotee when doing a short-term mission trip to Tasmania (some Australians consider it another country!) and when they painted my face for some mines some would say my face looked a little like Australia too.

Haha.... that's funny. Did you mean "Taz" ?

Er, I agree with you mostly… let’s leave it at that since I’m nearly confused myself

Deal! We're both confoozled. hehe =D

This needs clarification… we have no scripture additions today, the canon is closed, yes. No new teaching outside the bible. But the kinds of prophecy that does exist today always has to be consistent with scripture.

Usually they refer to things that may happen in the future, encouragement, exhortation, sometimes loving rebuke, words to the church or words to individuals as per previous examples by Deborah, Nathan, etc. Their words of prophecy as recorded in the bible were of a kind that did not contribute to any teaching in the bible but were individual words to individual people. For example, how would the prophetic rebuke to David relate to me? It related specifically to David’s adultery.

How would it relate? You would see your own sin, and know that God is very displeased with that.

As to the prophecy thing - a new revalatyion, something new from God, would be God's Word. Whether it's a "mere" ... hehe... prediction or not, it is still a new reavalation from God, and I don't believe that is around anymore. But, I'm trying not to have to have my posts go off in 200 different directions at once.... =D

Therefore to illustrate, say if I was to make a decision of whether I should go to Washington or stay in Conneticut the bible doesn’t really help me outside of godly guidelines not to run away like Jonah, etc. But sometimes God has a certain plan and will through a prophetic word tell you to stay even though the choice seems arbitrary.

Yes, the Bible does have guidelines. If you walk with the Lord.... in other words, follow everything in the Bible that is applicable (pray daily, read it, mediatate on it, take it to heart, walk in the Spirit basically...) then the Holy Spirit is very much influencing your life, and you simply will choose the right things. If you're walking in the Lord, the Lord isn't going to let you choose badly. You don't need a special revalation. =)

Also, common sense is somewaht halpeful, hehe. And God leads in that way also. He might "close a door" as it is said.

Preaching involves the communication of the written Word to people; prophecy takes spontaneously revealed words to people – the prophetic content is subject to the Word. Read the major and minor prophets and you’ll see that a lot of their writings constitute things revealed to them by God of the future of Israel & Judah, as well as the endtimes and pleas for the people to return to God. They could not get that stuff from the Law, but their words are from God. Why is it then that when the scriptures are mentioned in Jesus’ day that they are called “The Law and the Prophets”?

I'm not saying there is a difference between our words Prophesy (verb) and Preach (verb). I'm saying that the Greek word is the same word, and merely means to proclaim the Word of God. So you have to be careful when reading it. It can mean both things. A prophet preached the Word of God too. Just it wasn't written down yet.

David could not have been convicted of an adulterous relationship with the wife of Uriah from the Law then, not so specifically.

Errr.... yes he could have. He knew he was in the wrong. He saw himself in the story that Nathan gave him. After it was pointed out, yes. But he understood what he had done. He knew the commandments about adultery and murder, and when Nathan said "thou art the man" (rough translation ), David needed no further conviction, he knew.

Joshua could not have known whether he would be successful in his conquests if he just looked at the Law. He had to seek God’s advice whether to go and attack a certain enemy or not and it was somehow revealed to him.

Of course. I never said we shouldn't seek God's advice. Meaning, pray. I just don't think the prophet down the street can tell us what God is trying to say to us...

(yes, sarcasm =D)

I’m not saying the Bible cannot convict a person – I’m saying that it cannot lay bare our heart’s secrets the way prophecy did and still does.

Ah, but it can. Not necessarily to everyone around you. A prophet didn't do that either. Nathan spoke to David alone. But it made it bare to David.

And so does the Bible. Obviously, it doesn't say out loud the sins of an unbeliever' (or believer's, for that matter!) to everyone around... nor did the prophets all the time.

I think another thing it could be talking about is this. What is in your heart is manifested in how you act (see James, I think?). So, people can read teh Bible, and see taht it's wrong to... I don't know, steal. That shows what's in a robber's heart. (simple example, but I think it makes the point I was trying to make, hehe)

[*rapturefish realises he’s fasting but not by choice due to post response overtime*]

/me looks at the clock. Eek! 4am! Shoot, I have church in 3 hours!

j/k =D

In the context of the letter to the Corinthian church it wasn’t the main point – unbelievers were missing out on edification the way tongues were being used. The Corinth church weren’t all Jews either, it’s like Hong Kong, a whole mix of cultures.

I know it wasn't the main point. But that's in the verse as well.

Where’s the reference?

Hrrrm, I THINK it is 1st Peter 4. Not sure on that, but it's towards the middle/end of 1st Peter.

As for false miracles, etc. I don’t doubt that it happens and there are abuses. But there’s genuine stuff too and experience needs to be filtered through scripture. And scripture supports the kind of miracles being done right throughout the bible and in the early church. The revival accounts show the same amazing things being done today as in the early church. Are they fake? Or is it of God? See how people are on fire for God and free from their pain and afflictions – there’s the proof.

I'm not denying that those of moer charismatic persuasion can be quite on fire for God, even I do believe they are mistaken about the healings and such. I am not saying that a healing didn't even take PLACE, necessarily.... but I don't think it's from a gift that the person has, or faith on the healee (as in the person that was healed). God can heal miraculously, and does, even through simple doctors.

However, the popular tv faith healers that tell you to touch the TV or something like that.... I think they are off the deep end, and are quite simply phony.

I don't think there is any reference whatsoever in the Bible where the gift of healing was ever used for believer's sakes, and never for just the health of someone. I pointed out earlier that Paul didn't heal himself or the sick guy at Miletus. Why not?

If something in your experience does not add up to what you thought the bible says, then there are a few possibilities:

The bible is wrong (This is not possible)

Well don't list it as a possibility then! hehe, just kidding =D Very glad you believe that though. That makes it so much easier and nice to debate. It's very hard to debate with someone that thinks the Bible is errorful. To coin my own word.

Our interpretation is wrong
Our application is wrong
The experience is a deception

Or you were asleep and dreaming. Err.... =D

If the experience is verifiable and found to bear the fruits of the gospel, then it is not of Satan. And if the bible is infallible then the fault lies with our interpretation &/or application.

One problem I haev with this. Satan looks like an angel of light. He's not going to make it look weird. Furthermore, God can use mistaken people. I would not say that for sure, if some good fruit comes out of it, that it is of God. I would say that that is probably not what Satan would have had in mind though, hehe....

I said the authority and power of Jesus, in whose name the demons flee. Like all spiritual gifts it’s not us doing it, it’s the Spirit working through us.

Do you believe that all believers receive the same spiritual gifts then? That seems kind of odd.

My, and this was the original subject of this thread! Partly my fault, I guess. I believe demons cannot POSSESS believers. But we have accounts of Christians who are DEMONIZED – i.e. they are still Christians but thanks to the allowance on their part for sin to stay in their lives and remain undealt with demons have been allowed a measure of influence.

Yes, they can certainly influence believers. Wolves in sheeps clothing. They don't look like demons if they can help it =P (figuratively speaking, I don't think we SEE angels/demons/satan/Jesus...)

The bible is not wrong. The experiences do happen. It comes down to how we interpret it without twisting the Bible and realizing the experience is valid.

Or perhaps the experience is invalid. Experience is subjective. =)

Phew!

Ditto!

By the way, it is interesting to note, on the Jesus-appearance things. I don't know, I've heard of people saying that he talekd to them in teh bathroom while they were shaving or something like that. What is interesting, however, is this...

In the OT, people fell on their faces and worshipped the Lord.

In the NT, even when an ANGEL appeared, he had to say do not be afraid.

In short, when Christ or even an angel appeared, the general response was falling falt on their face in worship. Which the angels didn't like.

So to say that you just calmly continued shaving and had a little conversation with Jesus.... just doesn't fit.

Just figured I'd mention that too. Why I don't know. My fingers were getting bored?

 

[paulewog]

Yes, people tend to "assume God". They think God will not allow bad things to happen because we are saved, etc but this is not how God works, He allows terrible things to happen to believers all the time, usually with a good outcome.

Quite true. Christianity is not about health, wealth, and prosperity.

The people of Israel assumed God would protect them from the Babylonians and Assyrians no matter what, and we all know how that turned out.

Assumed that, even though God TOLD them differently.

People assume God would not allow demons to oppress believers, yet they do.

Would not, or can not? Big difference there.

Or they try to rationalize God, they think God is all loving, so He would not allow "X" to happen to a person because it would mean He does not love them, even though event "X" may have a good outcome for the believer.

Personally, I find that quite annoying... especially the "God is love, I can't believe He would send anyone to hell!" They seem to forget the other attributes of God....

God does not give us what we WANT, but what we NEED.

Well, He likes to do that (to speak of Him in human terms). But sometimes He does let us have what WE want. Or think we want. And what we want, when it differs from waht He wants for us, never works out great

 

[Andrew]

weblastyn,

you sound as if you believe God 'enjoys' letting bad terrible things happen to his children. Are earthly parents like that? How much more God!

Yes I agree with you that God does allow bad things to happen to Christians, but he doesnt allow it with joy. Yes he does take the eggs and lemons that the devil throws at us and turn them into omelette and cool lemonade for us but he doesnt cheer the devil on.

"God does not give us what we WANT, but what we NEED."

That is simply unblibical

¥How in the world can He be called Al Shaddai -- the God who is more than enough -- if he only gives us what we need??!!

¥If God gives only what we need, why in the world were there 12 basketfuls leftover, a net-breaking, boat-sinking load of fishes??!!

¥Why did Abraham have thousands of camels, gold and silver, hundreds of servants etc.

¥Why did Jesus say "WHATSOEVER YE DESIRE...when ye pray believe that ye receive them..."

¥ Ps 37:4 Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

¥ Mt 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

¥ Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

¥ Lu 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

BTW: Where do you draw the line betw need and want? Is everything you have in your life now merely needs?

 

[Andrew]

"Quite true. Christianity is not about health, wealth, and prosperity."

Ah yes, we go to church to get sick, poor and cursed. How "spiritual and holy".

The opposite is true. My goodness, you dont even know what you have been redeemed from!

 

[paulewog]

Yes I do.

Punishment for my sin.

Please don't take my posts out of context, Andrew. I never said we go to church for those things..... if you were only joking, sorry, but I can't tell if you are joking or not

I am redeemed from the PUNISHMENT ... the WRATH of God. Not from the consequences of sin at an earthly level.

I'm still a sinful guy. I'm not perfect, I haven't lost my sin nature (if I did, I wouldn't be sinning anymore at all, to argue it logically.... hehe). And disease and sickness are in this world still. It's a consequence of being fallen.

Did God EVER promise an easy life? Freedom from diseases? Sicknesses? Freedom from poverity? No... never.