Canonization of Scriptures

GuardianShua · Jan 12, 2009

I am taking a vacation from the forum everyone, and I do not know when I will be back. I just wanted to say Good bye for now. :wave:

Tu Es Petrus · Jan 12, 2009

MichaelTheeArchAngel said:
This poll is for Christians only.

Do you trust the Catholic Papacy in the canonization of our scriptures.
Yes or No

I have to say, its a little late in history to be asking this question, is it not? The New Testament was canonized 16 centuries ago. I also take issue with the way the question is worded, but I won't quibble over that for now.

At any rate, here are two good articles from the New Advent website:

Canon of the Old Testament - Signifies the authoritative list or closed number of the writings composed under Divine inspiration, and destined for the well-being of the Church
Canon of the New Testament - The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history

SummaScriptura · Jan 12, 2009

Trento said:
<snip>we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings<snip>

Unauthorized meetings? What kind of perverse obscenities are these? The original person who penned those words deserves, lacking forgiveness, a unique circle in hell.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

God, I apologize for all the evil things I frequently say about my country. Forgive me, Lord.

I thank you, Lord of heaven and earth, that I was born in the United States of America in the 20th century, for had I not been born in that place and at that time I might have been born somewhere else in some other time. Amen.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

I do have a question. When was the OT LXX formed and was that the translation being used in the days of JESUS?
I have started to use it to harmonize the OT with the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. Just curious. Thanks. :wave:

Zeph 1:15 A day of wrath the day, that, a Day of Tribulation/06869 tsarah/2347qliyewv and anguish/04691 m@tsuwqah, a day of devastation and futility, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of cloud and murkiness.

[LXX]
Zeph 1:15 hmeraorghvh hmeraekeinhhmera qliyewv...................

Daniel 12:1 And in the time, that, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of Thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/06869 tsarah/2347 qliyewv becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that. [Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

[LXX]
Daniel 12:1 kaien tw kairwekeinwanasthsetai Mixahl o arxwno megavo esthkwvepitouvuiouvtoulaousoukaiestaikairov qliyewv qliyiv..............

SummaScriptura · Jan 12, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
I do have a question. When was the OT LXX formed and was that the translation being used in the days of JESUS?
I have started to use it to harmonize the OT with the Jewish/Hebrew book of Revelation. Just curious. Thanks.

Its not quite correct to assume there was an OT LXX and an OT MT text tradition that was hardened and in constant use by the early church. If one examines the use of the OT in the NT one finds there were more than one LXX text tradition and more than one MT text tradtion and also other Hebrew text traditions in use at the time.

A common falacy goes like this, "The New Testament writers used the LXX when quoting the OT".

Well, truth is, some did, some didn't. Some referred to a proto-Masoretic text, some to other texts, and yes, many used the LXX.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

SummaScriptura said:
Its not quite correct to assume there was an OT LXX and an OT MT text tradition that was hardened and in constant use by the early church. If one examines the use of the OT in the NT one finds there were more than one LXX text tradition and more than one MT text tradtion and also other Hebrew text traditions in use at the time.

A common falacy goes like this, "The New Testament writers used the LXX when quoting the OT".

Well, truth is, some did, some didn't. Some referred to a proto-Masoretic text, some to other texts, and yes, many used the LXX.

Perhaps so.
But we do know JESUS quoted from Daniel so I decided to compare the greek LXX in Daniel 12:1 to the greek used by JESUS in the Olivet Discourse and I was surprised the same greek word is used.

The only curious thing is the LXX has #2347 twice in Dan 12:1 and can't figure that out, as the hebrew only has it once. I use the site at Studylight Org. Thoughts?

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=daniel+12%3A1&section=0&it=kjv&oq=ruth%25204%3A6&ot=lxx&nt=tr&new=1&nb=ru&ng=4&ncc=4

Daniel 12:1 And in the time, that, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/06869 tsarah/2347 qliyewv becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that. [Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

[LXX]
Daniel 12:1 kaien tw kairwekeinwanasthsetai Mixahl o arxwno megavo esthkwvepitouvuiouvtoulaousoukaiestaikairov qliyewv qliyiv..............

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV <2347> Great, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming

Textus Rec.) Matthew 24:21 estai gar tote qliyiV megalh oia ou gegonen ap archV kosmou ewV tou nun oud ou mh genhtai

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek-texts/septuagint/chapter.asp?book=50&page=12

[LXX]
Daniel 12:1 ΚΑΙ ἐν τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ ἀναστήσεται Μιχαὴλ ὁ ἄρχων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ἑστηκὼς ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ λαοῦ σου· καὶ ἔσται καιρὸς θλίψεως, θλῖψις οἵα οὐ γέγονεν................

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Is there anyone here that knows the Greek and can explain why the greek word #2347 is used twice in Daniel 12:1? Or perhaps there is a board on CF that I can bring this up on. Thks :wave:

http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible....=ru&ng=4&ncc=4

Daniel 12:1 And in the time, that, Miyka'el shall stand, the chief, the great, the one standing over sons of thy People.
And a Time of Tribulation/06869 tsarah/2347 qliyewv becomes, which not has-become from to become a Nation, until the Time, that. [Matt 24:21/Mark 13:19/Reve 7:14]

[LXX]
Daniel 12:1 kai en tw kairw ekeinw anasthsetai Mixahl o arxwn o megav o esthkwv epi touv uiouv tou laou sou kai estai kairov qliyewv qliyiv..............

http://www.ellopos.net/elpenor/greek...ook=50&page=12

[LXX]
Daniel 12:1 ΚΑΙ ἐν τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ ἀναστήσεται Μιχαὴλ ὁ ἄρχων ὁ μέγας, ὁ ἑστηκὼς ἐπὶ τοὺς υἱοὺς τοῦ λαοῦ σου· καὶ ἔσται καιρὸς θλίψεως, θλῖψις οἵα οὐ γέγονεν................

Standing Up · Jan 12, 2009

Jesus quoted from every OT book except Esther and not from any book in the apocraphy. Yes?

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Standing Up said:
Jesus quoted from every OT book except Esther and not from any book in the apocraphy. Yes?

So did my bro Saul/Paul

Romans 9:27 "Isaiah yet cries-out over the Israel 'if-ever may be the Number of the sons of Israel as the Sand of the Sea, the Remnant shall be being saved'". [Isaiah 10:22,23/Daniel 12:1]

Reve 20:8 and he shall be coming out to deceive the nations, the in the Four Corners of the Land, the Gog and Magog, to be together-assembling them into the battle of which the Number of them as the Sand of the Sea.[Ezekiel 7:1-2]

Tu Es Petrus · Jan 12, 2009

Standing Up said:
Jesus quoted from every OT book except Esther and not from any book in the apocraphy. Yes?

The are not the "apocraphy", the are the Deutero-Canonicals. And here are a number or references to them:

Matt. 2:16 - Herod's decree of slaying innocent children was prophesied in Wis. 11:7 - slaying the holy innocents.

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 9:36 - the people were "like sheep without a shepherd" is same as Judith 11:19 - sheep without a shepherd.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 22:25; Mark 12:20; Luke 20:29 - Gospel writers refer to the canonicity of Tobit 3:8 and 7:11 regarding the seven brothers.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Matt. 24:16 - let those "flee to the mountains" is taken from 1 Macc. 2:28.

Matt. 27:43 - if He is God's Son, let God deliver him from His adversaries follows Wisdom 2:18.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Mark 9:48 - description of hell where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched references Judith 16:17.

Luke 1:42 - Elizabeth's declaration of Mary's blessedness above all women follows Uzziah's declaration in Judith 13:18.

Luke 1:52 - Mary's magnificat addressing the mighty falling from their thrones and replaced by lowly follows Sirach 10:14.

Luke 2:29 - Simeon's declaration that he is ready to die after seeing the Child Jesus follows Tobit 11:9.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

Luke 24:4 and Acts 1:10 - Luke's description of the two men in dazzling apparel reminds us of 2 Macc. 3:26.

John 1:3 - all things were made through Him, the Word, follows Wisdom 9:1.

John 3:13 - who has ascended into heaven but He who descended from heaven references Baruch 3:29.

John 4:48; Acts 5:12; 15:12; 2 Cor. 12:12 - Jesus', Luke's and Paul's usage of "signs and wonders" follows Wisdom 8:8.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

John 10:22 - the identification of the feast of the dedication is taken from 1 Macc. 4:59.

John 10:36 – Jesus accepts the inspiration of Maccabees as He analogizes the Hanukkah consecration to His own consecration to the Father in 1 Macc. 4:36.

John 15:6 - branches that don't bear fruit and are cut down follows Wis. 4:5 where branches are broken off.

Acts 1:15 - Luke's reference to the 120 may be a reference to 1 Macc. 3:55 - leaders of tens / restoration of the twelve.

Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Gal. 2:6 - Peter's and Paul's statement that God shows no partiality references Sirach 35:12.

Acts 17:29 - description of false gods as like gold and silver made by men follows Wisdom 13:10.

Rom 1:18-25 - Paul's teaching on the knowledge of the Creator and the ignorance and sin of idolatry follows Wis. 13:1-10.

Rom. 1:20 - specifically, God's existence being evident in nature follows Wis. 13:1.

Rom. 1:23 - the sin of worshipping mortal man, birds, animals and reptiles follows Wis. 11:15; 12:24-27; 13:10; 14:8.

Rom. 1:24-27 - this idolatry results in all kinds of sexual perversion which follows Wis. 14:12,24-27.

Rom. 4:17 - Abraham is a father of many nations follows Sirach 44:19.

Rom. 5:12 - description of death and sin entering into the world is similar to Wisdom 2:24.

Rom. 9:21 - usage of the potter and the clay, making two kinds of vessels follows Wisdom 15:7.

1 Cor. 2:16 - Paul's question, "who has known the mind of the Lord?" references Wisdom 9:13.

1 Cor. 6:12-13; 10:23-26 - warning that, while all things are good, beware of gluttony, follows Sirach 36:18 and 37:28-30.

1 Cor. 8:5-6 - Paul acknowledging many "gods" but one Lord follows Wis. 13:3.

1 Cor. 10:1 - Paul's description of our fathers being under the cloud passing through the sea refers to Wisdom 19:7.

1 Cor. 10:20 - what pagans sacrifice they offer to demons and not to God refers to Baruch 4:7.

1 Cor. 15:29 - if no expectation of resurrection, it would be foolish to be baptized on their behalf follows 2 Macc. 12:43-45.

Eph. 1:17 - Paul's prayer for a "spirit of wisdom" follows the prayer for the spirit of wisdom in Wisdom 7:7.

Eph. 6:14 - Paul describing the breastplate of righteousness is the same as Wis. 5:18. See also Isaiah 59:17 and 1 Thess. 5:8.

Eph. 6:13-17 - in fact, the whole discussion of armor, helmet, breastplate, sword, shield follows Wis. 5:17-20.

1 Tim. 6:15 - Paul's description of God as Sovereign and King of kings is from 2 Macc. 12:15; 13:4.

2 Tim. 4:8 - Paul's description of a crown of righteousness is similar to Wisdom 5:16.

Heb. 4:12 - Paul's description of God's word as a sword is similar to Wisdom 18:15.

Heb. 11:5 - Enoch being taken up is also referenced in Wis 4:10 and Sir 44:16. See also 2 Kings 2:1-13 & Sir 48:9 regarding Elijah.

Heb 11:35 - Paul teaches about the martyrdom of the mother and her sons described in 2 Macc. 7:1-42.

Heb. 12:12 - the description "drooping hands" and "weak knees" comes from Sirach 25:23.

James 1:19 - let every man be quick to hear and slow to respond follows Sirach 5:11.

James 2:23 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness follows 1 Macc. 2:52 - it was reckoned to him as righteousness.

James 3:13 - James' instruction to perform works in meekness follows Sirach 3:17.

James 5:3 - describing silver which rusts and laying up treasure follows Sirach 29:10-11.

James 5:6 - condemning and killing the "righteous man" follows Wisdom 2:10-20.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter teaches about testing faith by purgatorial fire as described in Wisdom 3:5-6 and Sirach 2:5.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judging each one according to his deeds refers to Sirach 16:12 - God judges man according to his deeds.

2 Peter 2:7 - God's rescue of a righteous man (Lot) is also described in Wisdom 10:6.

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.

Rev. 1:18; Matt. 16:18 - power of life over death and gates of Hades follows Wis. 16:13.

Rev. 2:12 - reference to the two-edged sword is similar to the description of God's Word in Wisdom 18:16.

Rev. 5:7 - God is described as seated on His throne, and this is the same description used in Sirach 1:8.

Rev. 8:3-4 - prayers of the saints presented to God by the hand of an angel follows Tobit 12:12,15.

Rev. 8:7 - raining of hail and fire to the earth follows Wisdom 16:22 and Sirach 39:29.

Rev. 9:3 - raining of locusts on the earth follows Wisdom 16:9.

Rev. 11:19 - the vision of the ark of the covenant (Mary) in a cloud of glory was prophesied in 2 Macc. 2:7.

Rev. 17:14 - description of God as King of kings follows 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 19:1 - the cry "Hallelujah" at the coming of the new Jerusalem follows Tobit 13:18.

Rev. 19:11 - the description of the Lord on a white horse in the heavens follows 2 Macc. 3:25; 11:8.

Rev. 19:16 - description of our Lord as King of kings is taken from 2 Macc. 13:4.

Rev. 21:19 - the description of the new Jerusalem with precious stones is prophesied in Tobit 13:17.

Exodus 23:7 - do not slay the innocent and righteous - Dan. 13:53 - do not put to death an innocent and righteous person.

1 Sam. 28:7-20 – the intercessory mediation of deceased Samuel for Saul follows Sirach 46:20.

2 Kings 2:1-13 – Elijah being taken up into heaven follows Sirach 48:9.
__________________

Interesting. I do not use anything outside of the 66 books of the Canon myself but thanks for those comparisons :wave:

Matt 24:21 "For then shall be Tribulation/qliyiV <2347> Great, the such as not has become from beginning of world til of the now, neither not no may be becoming [Daniel 12:1/Reve 7:14]

Reve 7:14 And I have declared to Him "Lord! of me thou are aware". And He said to me "these are those coming out of the Tribulation/qliyewV <2347> the Great and they plunge the stoles of them and they whiten [*stoles of] them in the blood of the lambkin

Tu Es Petrus · Jan 12, 2009

If you guys don't mind me backing up to the OP for a sec: Why is the question Do You Trust The Catholic Papacy In The Canonization Of Scriptures? Isn't the question more like Do You Trust The Holy Spirit In The Canonization Of Scriptures? The Holy Spirit is a pretty trustworthy person. I know that it rubs against the grain of some people that the Catholic Church was God's instrument in canonizing the scriptures. But ultimately that canonization was done under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So isnt that the REAL question?

SummaScriptura · Jan 12, 2009

Tu Es Petrus, I've seen this list before. It looks pretty good, but we should dump the first one about slaying the innocents. Reading the the Wisdom of Solomon one finds it is referring to the slaying of innocent Hebrew children in the land of Egypt at the time of the birth of Moses.

On a related note, I think it would be cool if we could all colaborate somewhere on this forum and really nail down all the biblical cross-references we can find to the books incorrectly referred to as "apocrypha". Working out a good cross-reference system could be a good first step in re-integrating those books use for some of us in the West who've lately rediscovered those books' worth and their rightful place amongst the books of the Church.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
If you guys don't mind me backing up to the OP for a sec: Why is the question Do You Trust The Catholic Papacy In The Canonization Of Scriptures? Isn't the question more like Do You Trust The Holy Spirit In The Canonization Of Scriptures? The Holy Spirit is a pretty trustworthy person. I know that it rubs against the grain of some people that the Catholic Church was God's instrument in canonizing the scriptures. But ultimately that canonization was done under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. So isnt that the REAL question?

The Holy Spirit is in all CHRIST-ians, not just RCs, Orthodox or Protestants, correct? How bout responding to this post:

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=50129975&postcount=75

Originally Posted by Thekla

Yes, I stated the emperor could call a council.

I said he did not decide the outcome/decisions of the council.

Also, the Council you refer to is not considered "Ecumenical" (ie is a regional Council.)

Could you provide primary source documentation (extant edict, decree, pronouncement) where Constantine identifies himself as the head of the Church ? I've not run across any, and perhaps your source cites it.

I couldn't find anything but I found this interesting.
The RCC was born around 313 AD

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,300 for constantine declares himself head of the church.

http://clf.uua.org/betweensundays/mi...nHeritage.html

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change. In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born.
Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................
__________________

SummaScriptura · Jan 12, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
<snip>Rev. 1:4 – the seven spirits who are before his throne is taken from Tobit 12:15 – Raphael is one of the seven holy angels who present the prayers of the saints before the Holy One.
<snip>

Actually, if one reads this one in context, it seems to be referring to God's Holy Spirit as being sevenfold in character. A little study on the sevenfold Spirit of God, I'm confident will bear this out.

Revelation 1:4-5, Grace to you and peace from him[sup]1[/sup] who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[sup]2[/sup] who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ[sup]3[/sup] the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

If we understand the Holy Spirit as being "sevenfold" in nature, this passage can be seen as a nice early trinitarian formula.

This salutation is from God, the triune One.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

SummaScriptura said:
Actually, if one reads this one in context, it seems to be referring to God's Holy Spirit as being sevenfold in character. A little study on the sevenfold Spirit of God, I'm confident will bear this out.

Revelation 1:4-5, Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come[sup]1[/sup], and from the seven spirits[sup]2[/sup] who are before his throne, and from Jesus Christ[sup]3[/sup] the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.

If we understand the Holy Spirit as being "sevenfold" in nature, this passage can be seen as a nice early trinitarian formula.

The book of Revelation has been the "bane" of Christianity in my humble view.
Why do RCs and non-RCs disagree so much on the interpretation of that Divine book?

Revelation 22:10 And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this, that the Time NIGH/egguV <1451> is

Luke 21:31 Thus also ye whenever ye may be seeing these-things becoming ye are knowing that NIGH/egguV <1451> is the Kingdom of the God.

Tu Es Petrus · Jan 12, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
The Holy Spirit is in all CHRIST-ians, not just RCs, Orthodox or Protestants, correct?....

Yes, But I thought we were talking about the canonization of the scriptures. I do see the connection with what you are saying.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
Yes, But I thought we were talking about the canonization of the scriptures. I do see the connection with what you are saying.

Well, since they were Canonized, why so much disagreement with them between the RCC and non-RCs

Tu Es Petrus · Jan 12, 2009

LittleLambofJesus said:
Well, since they were Canonized, why so much disagreement with them between the RCC and non-RCs

Simple. The rejection of authority. The canon of scripture was accepted for 1500 years until the "reformation."

You know that the conversation eventually swings back around to "authority" sooner or later. Happens every time.

LittleLambofJesus · Jan 12, 2009

Tu Es Petrus said:
Simple. The rejection of authority. The canon of scripture was accepted for 1500 years until the "reformation."

You know that the conversation eventually swings back around to "authority" sooner or later. Happens every time.

Yep. I noticed that

Canonization of Scriptures

Do You Trust The Catholic Papacy In The Canonization Of Scriptures?

Yes

No

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