Canonization of Scriptures

[MrStain]

Was it the non-RCs that were against canonizing the book of Revelation?
Which ones ruled against it being in the Canon?

If I recall correctly, Martin Luther was all for getting rid of the books of Revelation, James and I think a few others.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If I recall correctly, Martin Luther was all for getting rid of the books of Revelation, James and I think a few others.

I meant the ones of the early Councils such as this one:

1. The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) - this particular council accepted all of the books of the New Testament except the Book of Revelation.

 

[MrStain]

I meant the ones of the early Councils such as this one:

1. The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) - this particular council accepted all of the books of the New Testament except the Book of Revelation.

Good catch. I believe the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage which were held shortly after Laodicea included the Canon we see today in our NT and so it includes the Apocolypse of John.

Oh. I read that Zwingli also excluded Revelation from his canon.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Good catch. I believe the councils of Rome, Hippo and Carthage which were held shortly after Laodicea included the Canon we see today in our NT and so it includes the Apocolypse of John.

Oh. I read that Zwingli also excluded Revelation from his canon.

That is why I have said that Book of the Bible has caused more division within Christianity than any other.
Notice how RCs and non-RCs differ on the intpretations of that book.
If I didn't think it was inspired I wouldn't have spent almost 2 yrs translating it from the greek texts......

http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-church-did-not-give-world-bible.htm


Refutation of James Bernstein (Orthodox):

1. First Bernstein says it was the church, not the councils that set the canon, then two pages later he says the church determined the canon. Yet Bernstein tries to prove his point by telling us the canon was determined by the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397. Obviously then Bernstein contradicts himself. First he says it was not the councils, then he refers to two church councils to prove the church had the authority to set the canon.
2. Bernstein is walking on eggshells by referring to the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397, because he knows the first council accepted only 26 books and rejected the book of Revelation, while the second council accepted all 27 books including revelation. We would ask the obvious question: What good is the "authority of the church" if it contradicts itself? One council rejects the book of Revelation the other council accepts revelation. Which "authority" was right?
3. Obviously then, no church council set the canon, and it was not by "church authority" that the canon was set. Rather there was a common understood canon of 22 books that had never been questioned and widely distributed since 100 AD, along with 5 other books that were in full circulation since 100 AD, but questioned.

 

[MrStain]

That is why I have said that Book of the Bible has caused more division within Christianity than any other.
Notice how RCs and non-RCs differ on the intpretations of that book.
If I didn't think it was inspired I wouldn't have spent almost 2 yrs translating it from the greek texts......

http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-church-did-not-give-world-bible.htm



Refutation of James Bernstein (Orthodox):

1. First Bernstein says it was the church, not the councils that set the canon, then two pages later he says the church determined the canon. Yet Bernstein tries to prove his point by telling us the canon was determined by the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397. Obviously then Bernstein contradicts himself. First he says it was not the councils, then he refers to two church councils to prove the church had the authority to set the canon.
2. Bernstein is walking on eggshells by referring to the Council of Laodicea A.D 363 and third Council of Carthage in A.D 397, because he knows the first council accepted only 26 books and rejected the book of Revelation, while the second council accepted all 27 books including revelation. We would ask the obvious question: What good is the "authority of the church" if it contradicts itself? One council rejects the book of Revelation the other council accepts revelation. Which "authority" was right?
3. Obviously then, no church council set the canon, and it was not by "church authority" that the canon was set. Rather there was a common understood canon of 22 books that had never been questioned and widely distributed since 100 AD, along with 5 other books that were in full circulation since 100 AD, but questioned.

I wouldn't say the inspired writing (Revelation) itself causes division. It is more of a people problem and some people will not accept the fact the Church determined -- through the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- the canon of Scripture. The same Church has also preserved those sacred writings from error and saved them from destruction throughout the centuries.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I wouldn't say the inspired writing (Revelation) itself causes division. It is more of a people problem and some people will not accept the fact the Church determined -- through the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- the canon of Scripture. The same Church has also preserved those sacred writings from error and saved them from destruction throughout the centuries.

I got that site from a google search as I know very little about the early Councils or ECFs.
Just a shame the book of Revelation is the cause of so much "confusion" today. Peace.


Results 1 - 10 of about 26,100 for The Council of Laodicearejectsbook of revelation.

http://www.bible.ca/canon.htm

http://www.christchurches.org/ChurchandNewTestament.htm

CONTROVERSIAL BOOKS
The Epistle to the Hebrews, was clearly excluded in the Western Church in a number of listings from the second, third, and fourth centuries. Primarily due to the influence of Augustine upon certain North African councils, the Epistle to the Hebrews was finally accepted in the West by the end of the fourth century. On the other hand, the Book of Revelation, also known as the Apocalypse, written by the Apostle John, was not accepted in the Eastern Church for several centuries.

Among Eastern authorities who rejected this book were Dionysius of Alexandria (third century), Eusebius (third century), Cyril of Jerusalem (fourth century), the Council of Laodicea (fourth century), John Chrysostom (fourth century), Theodore of Mopsuesta (fourth century), and Theodoret (fifth century). In addition, the original Syriac and Armenian versions of the New Testament omitted this book. Many Greek New Testament manuscripts written before the ninth century do not contain the Apocalypse, and it is not used liturgically in the Eastern Church to this day. Athanasius supported the inclusion of the Apocalypse, and it is due primarily to his influence that it was eventually received into the New Testament canon in the East. The early Church actually seems to have made an internal compromise on the Apocalypse and Hebrews.

The East would have excluded the Apocalypse from the canon, while the West would have done without Hebrews. Both sides agreed to accept the disputed book of the other. During the sixteenth-century, Martin Luther, the father of the Protestant Reformation, held that the New Testament books should be 'reconsidered' or given a 'grade' and that some were more inspired than others (that there is a canon within the canon). Martin Luther gave secondary rank to Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, placing them at the end of his translation of the New Testament. Luther gave the 'sola scriptura' and assumed the authority to edit the present written Word of God!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Book of Enoch was also very popular among Christians.

I found the names of the 4 "angels" in Chapt 40 interesting.
The name "Phanuel" is in the Bible, the father of Anna [Luke 2:36] and a place named by Jacob in Gene 32. Like I have said before, I read thru that book 1 time about 4 yrs ago, but before I would read it again, I would want to tranlslate it first.

Other than that, I will stick to the book of Revelation for now as that is tough enuf to harmonize with the rest of the OC and NC of the bible

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life.

Chapt 40:9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days

Luke 2:36 And there was Anna, a prophetess, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, she was much advanced in days, having lived with an husband seven years from her virginity,

5323 Phanouel {fan-oo-ale'} of Hebrew origin 06439;; n pr m
AV - Phanuel 1; 1
Phanuel = "the face of God"

6439 Pnuw'el pen-oo-ale' or (more properly,) Pniylel {pen-oo-ale'}; from 6437 and 410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites:--Peniel, Penuel.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Genesis 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
Judges 8:8 And he went up thence to Penuel, and spake unto them likewise: and the men of Penuel answered him as the men of Succoth had answered him.
Judges 8:9 And he spake also unto the men of Penuel, saying, When I come again in peace, I will break down this tower.
Judges 8:17 And he beat down the tower of Penuel, and slew the men of the city.
1Kings 12:25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
1Chronicles 4:4 And Penuel the father of Gedor and Ezer the father of Hushah. These are the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.
1Chronicles 8:25 And Iphedeiah, and Penuel, the sons of Shashak;

 

[GuardianShua]

Way Before Constantine The early Christian Church fathers of the 1st and 2nd centuries A.D. did not consider the Sabbath day to be a day all Christians were obligated to observe. They gave a different testimony.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians 8-10 (c. 110 A.D.)
"Do not be deceived by strange doctrines or antiquated myths, since they are worthless. For if we continue to live accordance with Judaism, we admit that we have not received grace. For the most godly prophets lived in accordance with Christ Jesus. This is why they were persecuted, being inspired as they were by His grace in order that those who are disobedient might be fully convinced that there is one God who revealed Himself through Jesus Christ His Son, who is His Word which came forth from silence, who in every respect pleased Him who sent Him. If, then, those who had lived in antiquated practices came to newness of hope, no longer keeping the Sabbath but living in accordance with the Lord's day, on which our life also arose through Him and His death (which some deny), the mystery through which we came to believe, and because of which we patiently endure, in order that we might be found to be disciples of Jesus Christ, our only teacher, how can we possibly live without Him, whom even the prophets, who were His disciples in the Spirit, were expecting as their teacher? Because of this He for whom they rightly waited raised them from the dead when He came. Therefore let us not be unaware of His goodness. For if He were to imitate the way we act, we are lost. Therefore, having become His disciples, let us learn to live in accordance with Christianity. For whoever is called by any other name than this one does not belong to God. Throw out, therefore, the bad leaven, which has become stale and sour, and reach for the new leaven, which is Jesus Christ. Be salted with Him, so that none of you become rotten, for by your odor you will be examined. It is utterly absurd to profess Jesus Christ and to practice Judaism. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity, in which "every tongue" believed and "was brought together" to God." (10)

Epistle of Barnabas 2:4-6 (c. 130 A.D.)
"For He has made it clear to us through all the prophets that He needs neither sacrifices nor whole burnt offerings nor general offerings, saying on one occasion: 'What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me?' says the Lord. 'I am full of whole burnt offerings, and I do not want the fat of lambs and blood of bulls and goats, not even if you come to appear before Me. For who demanded these things from your hands? Do not continue to trample My court. If you bring fine flour, it is in vain; incense is detestable to Me; your new moons and sabbaths I cannot stand.' Therefore He has abolished these things, in order that the new law of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is free from the yoke of compulsion, might have its offering, one not made by man.

Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9 (c. 130 A.D.)
"Finally, He says to them: 'I cannot bear your new moons and sabbaths.' You see what He means: it is not the present sabbaths that are acceptable to Me, but the one that I have made; on that Sabbath, after I have set everything at rest, I will create the beginning of an eighth day, which is the beginning of another world. This is why we spend the eighth day in celebration, the day on which Jesus both arose from the dead and, after appearing again, ascended into heaven." (11)

The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus (c. 260-339 A.D.) is probably one of the most important works on early Church history available, covering the events of its first three centuries. As one born during the early Church period, Eusebius was an able historian who had a close view of the events that helped shape the historical and theological developments of the early Church.

Eusebius Ecclesiastical History, Book 1, Chapter 5 (c. 315 A.D.)
"For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, neither do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians." (13)

Justin Martyr (c. 100-165 A.D.) lived during the reign of Antonius Pius and suffered martyrdom in 165 A.D. during the reign of Marcus Aurelius. He was an enthusiastic evangelist of the Gospel, and after traveling widely throughout the Roman Empire settled in Rome as a Christian teacher. While there, neighboring philosophers plotted against him because of his Christian profession, brought him up before the Roman authorities, who carried out his execution by beheading him.

The First Apology of Justin, Chapter 67
"And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things ... But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Savior on the same day rose from the dead." (17)

Some Christians would say that these epistles and statements are unreliable and reflect a general apostasy that was going on in the Church at the time. But this is the Church of which Christ said "the gates of Hades shall not overpower it." Also, the men who wrote letters such as these to the early Christians were the type of people of whom were spoken in Hebrews 11.

Hebrews 11:35-40.

Many early Church leaders and followers of Christ such as Ignatius, Polycarp and Justin Martyr, to name a few, suffered severe persecution and eventual martyrdom at the hands of the Romans for spreading the Gospel of Christ. But to keep to the main point, Sabbath-keeping was not a requirement in those days for all Christians, nor was it generally observed. And this was going on long before Constantine the Great enacted his civil Sunday law.

Matthew 5:17
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Throughout the New Testament the commandments were preached. And the fourth commandment is remember the Sabbath to keep it holy.

Commandments
Protestant:First Catholic:Second Hebrew:third
1Pr. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
1Ca. I am the Lord thy God. Thou shalt not have strange gods before me.
1He. I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.


2Pr.Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and (keep my commandments).
2Ca.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
2He.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shalt not make unto thee a graven image, nor any manner of likeness, of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; Thou shalt not bow down unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me; And showing mercy unto the thousandth generation of them that love Me and (keep My commandments).

3Pr.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
3Ca.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day.
3He.Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh His name in vain.

4Pr. (Remember) the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
4Ca. Honor thy Father and thy Mother.
4He.(Remember)the sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work. But the seventh day is the sabbath in honor of the Lord thy God; on it thou shalt not do any work, neither thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5Pr.Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.
5Ca.Thou shalt not kill.
5He.Honour thy father and thy mother in order that thy days may be prolonged upon the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.

6Pr.Thou shalt not kill.
6Ca.Thou shalt not commit adultery.
6He.Thou shalt not kill.

7Pr.Thou shalt not commit adultery.
7Ca.Thou shalt not steal.
7He.Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8Pr.Thou shalt not steal.
8Ca.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
8He.Thou shalt not steal.

9Pr.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
9Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife.
9He.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

10Pr. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
10Ca.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's goods.
10He.Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house; thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

Daniel 7:25. He will think to change times and laws.
Do you trust the Vatican to canonize scriptures?

 

[GuardianShua]

I found the names of the 4 "angels" in Chapt 40 interesting.
The name "Phanuel" is in the Bible, the father of Anna [Luke 2:36] and a place named by Jacob in Gene 32. Like I have said before, I read thru that book 1 time about 4 yrs ago, but before I would read it again, I would want to tranlslate it first.

Other than that, I will stick to the book of Revelation for now as that is tough enuf to harmonize with the rest of the OC and NC of the bible

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/book_of_enoch.htm

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life.

Chapt 40:9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days

Luke 2:36 And there was Anna, a prophetess, daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher, she was much advanced in days, having lived with an husband seven years from her virginity,

5323 Phanouel {fan-oo-ale'} of Hebrew origin 06439;; n pr m
AV - Phanuel 1; 1
Phanuel = "the face of God"

6439 Pnuw'el pen-oo-ale' or (more properly,) Pniylel {pen-oo-ale'}; from 6437 and 410; face of God; Penuel or Peniel, a place East of Jordan; also (as Penuel) the name of two Israelites:--Peniel, Penuel.

Genesis 32:30 And Jacob calleth the name of the place Peniel: for `I have seen God face unto face, and my life is delivered;'
Genesis 32:31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he halted upon his thigh.
Judges 8:8 And he went up thence to Penuel, and spake unto them likewise: and the men of Penuel answered him as the men of Succoth had answered him.
Judges 8:9 And he spake also unto the men of Penuel, saying, When I come again in peace, I will break down this tower.
Judges 8:17 And he beat down the tower of Penuel, and slew the men of the city.
1Kings 12:25 Then Jeroboam built Shechem in mount Ephraim, and dwelt therein; and went out from thence, and built Penuel.
1Chronicles 4:4 And Penuel the father of Gedor and Ezer the father of Hushah. These are the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.
1Chronicles 8:25 And Iphedeiah, and Penuel, the sons of Shashak;

Phanuel is a variant of Peniel.

 

[GuardianShua]

How did this thread go from the canon of scripture to Sunday/Sabbath?

Frankly I think this is just MtA's attempt to validate Arian and Judaec "Christian" beliefs.

This Council is not one of the Ecumenical Councils (7 are called Ecumenical by the EO).

Non-ecumenical Councils may either have been rejected, or were local (responding to a local or regional but not general problem). Canons iterated therein are not always applied, but are (at least for a time) in response to a local problem that threatens to divide the Church.

The emperor (here named as Constantine) may call a Council but does not decide a council.

As this Council is neither the work of the emperor named, nor is it ecumenical, I am unsure how the conclusion is made that has been suggested ...

Heads of church could indeed call for a council, as did Constantine. Not only did Constantine the great proclaim himself head of the Christian Church, but he was also the Pagan High priest at the same time. He was Pontifix Maximus, a title for a Pagan High Priest; he keep that title until the day he died.
The Papacy claims to have authority to change scripture in any way they think fit.

 

[Trento]

Michael "Thee" Archangel does not realize how very Roman Catholic he is in his thinking. To begin with, he, like many (not all) died-in-wool Roman Catholics accept by faith that the Roman Catholic Church existed during the time of Constantine the Great; it did not, so that is an item of faith Michael "Thee" Archangel shares with many (not all) Roman Catholics. I'd not be surprised if Michael "Thee" Archangel also believes the Roman Catholic Church existed further back than that.

.

You can read St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies (ca 170 AD) in which he expounded on apostolic succession, with "pre-eminent authority" at Rome. In other words, he pointed out that only the Catholic Church had valid apostolic succession. I can also point out the issues in which the Pope's final word won the day with regard to Pope Victor's call for Sunday worship (ca 190 AD) or Pope Stephen (ca. 256 AD), regarding so-called heretical baptism.
I suggest that the objectors read the writings of the Church Fathers. If they are really interested in the truth, they will see that Catholic practices and beliefs - such as the Eucharist, confession to a priest, papacy, etc - existed long before Constantine.
If the Catholic Church only began at the time of Constantine then all of the supposed errors of the Catholic Church would only have emerged after A.D 300, or even 337 - when Constantine died. Then Jesus lied after promising
to be with His Church till the end left it. If that is the marker for when the Christian Church fell into error, then how can anyone trust the very Bible they put their faith in, since the canon of Scripture was not settled upon until about fifty years after the death of Constantine (at the Councils of Carthage and Hippo).

 

[ezek33]

I trust that God has preserved His Word.

Good answer!!!

 

[Thekla]

Heads of church could indeed call for a council, as did Constantine. Not only did Constantine the great proclaim himself head of the Christian Church, but he was also the Pagan High priest at the same time. He was Pontifix Maximus, a title for a Pagan High Priest; he keep that title until the day he died.
The Papacy claims to have authority to change scripture in any way they think fit.

Yes, I stated the emperor could call a council.

I said he did not decide the outcome/decisions of the council.

Also, the Council you refer to is not considered "Ecumenical" (ie is a regional Council.)

Could you provide primary source documentation (extant edict, decree, pronouncement) where Constantine identifies himself as the head of the Church ? I've not run across any, and perhaps your source cites it.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

So if you reject the canon of scripture as put forth by the third Council of Carthage, that means you reject the Bible. (I mean even Luther had to accept the Council's canon before he started throwing out books.)

If you are sola scriptura, you reject Holy Tradition, and now you are saying you reject the scriptures.


So that begs the question, what do you base your faith on?


Since no one has access to the original writings, and you reject what has been passed down to you, what do you base your beliefs on?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes, I stated the emperor could call a council.

I said he did not decide the outcome/decisions of the council.

Also, the Council you refer to is not considered "Ecumenical" (ie is a regional Council.)

Could you provide primary source documentation (extant edict, decree, pronouncement) where Constantine identifies himself as the head of the Church ? I've not run across any, and perhaps your source cites it.

I couldn't find anything but I found this interesting.
The RCC was born around 313 AD

Results 1 - 10 of about 17,300 for constantine declares himself head of the church.

http://clf.uua.org/betweensundays/middlechildhood/ChristianHeritage.html

.......But the simple, humble Christian church was soon to undergo radical change. In 313 AD the Emperor of Rome, Constantine, declared himself to be a Christian. Although Constantine originally called for religious freedom, power corrupted that ideal, and soon Christianity became an absolute spiritual monarchy, with the pope as spiritual leader. The Roman Catholic Church was born. Church organization and government became hierarchical and complex with strict laws and creedal statements which church members were required to believe..................

 

[Standing Up]

You can read St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies (ca 170 AD) in which he expounded on apostolic succession, with "pre-eminent authority" at Rome. In other words, he pointed out that only the Catholic Church had valid apostolic succession. -snip-

Not exactly.

But Polycarp also was not only instructed by apostles, and conversed with many who had seen Christ, but was also, by apostles in Asia, appointed bishop of the Church in Smyrna, whom I also saw in my early youth, for he tarried [on earth] a very long time, and, when a very old man, gloriously and most nobly suffering martyrdom, departed this life, having always taught the things which he had learned from the apostles, and which the Church has handed down, and which alone are true. To these things all the Asiatic Churches testify, as do also those men who have succeeded Polycarp down to the present time,— a man who was of much greater weight, and a more steadfast witness of truth, than Valentinus, and Marcion, and the rest of the heretics. He it was who, coming to Rome in the time of Anicetus caused many to turn away from the aforesaid heretics to the Church of God, proclaiming that he had received this one and sole truth from the apostles—that, namely, which is handed down by the Church. There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming, Let us fly, lest even the bath-house fall down, because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within. And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, Do you know me? I do know you, the first-born of Satan. Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth; as Paul also says, A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject; knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sins, being condemned of himself. Titus 3:10 There is also a very powerful Epistle of Polycarp written to the Philippians, from which those who choose to do so, and are anxious about their salvation, can learn the character of his faith, and the preaching of the truth. Then, again, the Church in Ephesus, founded by Paul, and having John remaining among them permanently until the times of Trajan, is a true witness of the tradition of the apostles.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

 

[GuardianShua]

This is the kind of things that I am complaining about.
((The most reliable early manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have Mark 16:9-20.))
9When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. 11When they heard that Jesus was alive and that she had seen him, they did not believe it.
12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.

14Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen.

15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

19After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it.

 

[Standing Up]

Mark 16:9-20 was it added or not.

Without going into specifics, that ending confirms X. So, yes it is original IMO.

 

[GuardianShua]

Mark 16:9-20 was it added or not.

Without going into specifics, that ending confirms X. So, yes it is original IMO.

The Mark 16:9-20 is a late addition. So how can a person know if a certain word or scripture does not belong? well think of these words: Thou shall not put the Lord thy God to the test. Or this: Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'

 

[Trento]

Not exactly.


http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103303.htm

"Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its pre- eminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the apostolical tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:3:2 (A.D. 180),in ANF,I:1415-416