Can you prove it?

[St_Worm2]

Hello @Xeno.of.athens, I'm finally back at it. Here is an article (homily?) from OCN called The Great Commission, written by Fr. Stavros Skrotirianakis, and here is an excerpt from it.

​

Yesterday, we examined the account of the Resurrection from the Gospel of Matthew. Today, we will discuss the last few verses of the Gospel of Matthew, which include two verses, 19-20, known as the “Great Commission.” It is believed that this commission was given to the Disciples immediately prior to the Ascension, though the Ascension of Christ is not mentioned in Matthew’s Gospel.​

​

This Gospel passage is read at every baptism in the Orthodox Church. Every baptized Orthodox Christian is given the same commission as the original Disciples—to go, make disciples of all nations, baptize them, and teach them all that we have learned from Christ. There are four specific verbs in the Great Commission—to go, make, baptize, and teach. These four things are the responsibility of every Orthodox Christian, not just the clergy.​

​

...the Great Commission is one of the most important passages of scripture because it is the call to make disciples that is given to EVERY Christian person.........​

That's it for now. (edit: I will add this, I have read through numerous articles about the EOC understanding of The Great Commission. Most of them either refer to the 11, or to no one at all. Several have mentioned the church's responsibility in regard to v19, but NONE (so far) have ascribed the responsibility to go, make, baptize and teach to the clergy alone (IOW, NONE have excluded the laity from any of this).

So, are we done yet? Does this last bit of evidence finally "prove it" to you? You've been shown that what you believe in regard to The Great Commission stands in opposition to the teachings of RCC, EOC, Protestants and the Bible. Shall I see what the OO have to say next

God bless you!!

--David

Romans 10​

9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ​

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. ​

​

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” ​

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? ​

​

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ​

~The Great Commission

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hello @Xeno.of.athens, I'm finally back at it. Here is an article (homily?) from OCN called The Great Commission, written by Fr. Stavros Skrotirianakis, and here is an excerpt from it.

​

Yesterday, we examined the account of the Resurrection from the Gospel of Matthew. Today, we will discuss the last few verses of the Gospel of Matthew, which include two verses, 19-20, known as the “Great Commission.” It is believed that this commission was given to the Disciples immediately prior to the Ascension, though the Ascension of Christ is not mentioned in Matthew’s Gospel.​

​

This Gospel passage is read at every baptism in the Orthodox Church. Every baptized Orthodox Christian is given the same commission as the original Disciples—to go, make disciples of all nations, baptize them, and teach them all that we have learned from Christ. There are four specific verbs in the Great Commission—to go, make, baptize, and teach. These four things are the responsibility of every Orthodox Christian, not just the clergy.​

​

...the Great Commission is one of the most important passages of scripture because it is the call to make disciples that is given to EVERY Christian person.........​

That's it for now. (edit: I will add this, I have read through numerous articles about the EOC understanding of The Great Commission. Most of them either refer to the 11, or to no one at all. Several have mentioned the church's responsibility in regard to v19, but NONE (so far) have ascribed the responsibility to go, make, baptize and teach to the clergy alone (IOW, NONE have excluded the laity from any of this).

So, are we done yet? Does this last bit of evidence finally "prove it" to you? You've been shown that what you believe in regard to The Great Commission stands in opposition to the teachings of RCC, EOC, Protestants and the Bible. Shall I see what the OO have to say next

God bless you!!

--David

Romans 10​

9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; ​

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. ​

​

13 for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.” ​

14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? ​

​

17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. ​

~The Great Commission

It appears that the priest you quoted from expects lay people to baptise converts. I wonder if his bishop shares that view and if so, how many lay people are engaged in baptising converts.

PS: typically, Catholics explain the gospel to people who ask. Many lay people are catechists. Many more are sponsors. But very few Catholics engage in door-to-door evangelism like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormon elders do.

 

[St_Worm2]

It appears that the priest you quoted from expects lay people to baptise converts. I wonder if his bishop shares that view and if so, how many lay people are engaged in baptising converts.

You could certainly call him and ask him if you wanted to.

To be clear, it's the prayer that I posited from Orthodox Wiki that "appears" to say that the laity should be involved in all aspects of The Great Commission, including baptism. The article/homily excerpt that I just posted does far more than "appear" to say that, that both (clergy and laity) are responsible, that is (for carrying out all four commands that were given to us by the Lord in v19).

PS: typically, Catholics explain the gospel to people who ask. Many lay people are catechists. Many more are sponsors. But very few Catholics engage in door-to-door evangelism like Jehovah's witnesses and Mormon elders do.

I've ~never~ had a Catholic (RC/EO/OO) make an attempt to share the Gospel with me. We Protestants do some door to door, of course, but our witnessing is often on a somewhat more personal level than that, IOW, we share the Gospel with individual family members, friends, colleagues, etc., and people we don't know, or don't really know, those who we can see are hurting for some reason, etc. Things like that.

Interestingly, I was led to saving faith by a colleague of mine who saw that I was hurting.

--David
p.s. - is there an official EO teaching that specifically excludes the laity from performing baptisms in connection with The Great Commission? I haven't found one if there is, so if you know of one, please point it out to us. That said (and as I believe that I alluded to earlier), is there any reason to understand that fulfilling the Great Commission's command to baptize new disciples cannot (also) mean seeing to it that a new convert gets baptized, even if the baptism is actually performed by someone else?

 

[Always in His Presence]

This is kind of easy - read the Words of Christ in giving the Great Commission:

Mark 16:15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”​

​

Obviously the "he who believes" is not addressing the 11, but the people who they convert.

Additionally, there are a whole other group considered Apostles in Scripture.

Luke 10:10 After these things the Lord appointed seventy others also, and sent them two by two before His face into every city and place where He Himself was about to go.

70 other Apostles - not one of the 12

Acts 1:26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

Matthias was and Apostle - became the 12th of the 12

Acts 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul

Barnabas was an Apostle - not one of the 12

Paul was an Apostle - not one of the 12

That makes a total of 85 Apostles mentioned in Scripture.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Mark 16:15

The Great Commission is from the Gospel according to Matthew.

 

[St_Worm2]

The Great Commission is from the Gospel according to Matthew.

This is certainly what is traditionally called and pointed to first (as The Great Commission). Nevertheless, the RCC, the EOC (from what I've seen so far), and the Protestant churches all make it clear that Mark 16:15 and Acts 1:8 are part of it, as well!

Quite frankly, how could they not be, since all of these verses contain (collectively) the very last words that the Lord Jesus spoke to us just prior to His Ascension, and He addresses the same topic in each.

God bless you!!

—David
p.s. - Xeno, I would be interested to know what the priest in your local parish has to say about all of this. Why not ask him next Sunday and let us know what he has to say, and why? Thanks

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

This is certainly what is traditionally called and pointed to first (as The Great Commission). Nevertheless, the RCC, the EOC (from what I've seen so far), and the Protestant churches all make it clear that Mark 16:15 and Acts 1:8 are part of it, as well!

Quite frankly, how could they not be, since all of these verses contain (collectively) the very last words that the Lord Jesus spoke to us just prior to His Ascension, and He addresses the same topic in each.

God bless you!!

—David
p.s. - Xeno, I would be interested to know what the priest in your local parish has to say about all of this. Why not ask him next Sunday and let us know what he has to say, and why? Thanks

I may ask him next time I have a conversation with him.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The Great Commission is from the Gospel according to Matthew.

It is also in the Gospel According to Mark as quoted.

Are you not familiar with what a synoptic Gospel is? Def. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke are referred to as the synoptic Gospels because they include many of the same stories, often in a similar sequence and in similar or sometimes identical wording.

So, yes Holy Scripture - not I - can prove it.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Are you not familiar with what a synoptic Gospel is?

Oh yes, I am quite familiar with the three synoptics and the much-discussed synoptic problem. Yet the Great Commission is the passage in Matthew, the passage near the end of Mark is, alas, of questionable origin, and the gospel according to saint Luke really does not have a "great commission". But one could try to read the great commission into the Emmaus road account ...

and [Jesus] said to them, "This is what is written: the Messiah must suffer and must rise from death three days later, and in his name the message about repentance and the forgiveness of sins must be preached to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And I myself will send upon you what my Father has promised. But you must wait in the city until the power from above comes down upon you."​

(Luke 24:46-49 GNB)

 

[Always in His Presence]

Oh yes, I am quite familiar with the three synoptics and the much-discussed synoptic problem

IMHO there is zero problem with the Synoptics. Perhaps in the Roman Catholic Church it presents problems, but nowhere else.

We have to realize that hundreds of millions of Christian’s many denominations and Seminaries do not follow the Roman Catholic mantra or system of thought.

It doesn’t make one right or wrong. To have intelligent discourse we have to be able to listen to a different thought and without pride or prejudice respond based on what we think we know.

 

[Guojing]

If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Wouldn't his word be?

This widely misapplied verse refers to the attributes of Christ, not his instructions.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Having a verse that is part of the Synoptics doesn’t require it be in all three, but at least two.

It really is an interesting study, you might want to check it out

 

[Guojing]

Hello again Xeno, I was also interested in what you said about the Sermon on the Mount, as you seem to be insinuating that it was meant for the Twelve alone (or at best, for all who were there to hear it).

This seems a particularly odd belief to me, especially when you consider what it says and what it contains (including the Lord's Prayer .. Matthew 6:9-13 and the Golden Rule .. Matthew 7:12), but if that's what you truly believe, please explain why you do.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

Well for one thing, do you think this conclusion of the Lord's prayer apply today?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

 

[Guojing]

The Great Commission is from the Gospel according to Matthew.

The term "the Great Commission" is actually an addition made by Bible commentators. Jesus never used that phrase in Matthew 28.

If you are thus using that to say that the instruction given in Matthew is somehow more significant than the others found at the end of Mark, Luke, John and even in Acts 1, that is the wrong usage.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

IMHO there is zero problem with the Synoptics.

The Synoptic Problem is a term used to describe the literary relationship between the first three Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These three Gospels are called the synoptic Gospels because they share many similarities in terms of content, structure, and wording 1.

The Synoptic Problem is concerned with determining the precise relationships between these three Gospels. Scholars have noted the alternating array of agreements and disagreements among the three Gospels and have wondered why and how the disparities came to be 2.

The most widely accepted solution to the Synoptic Problem is the Two-Source Hypothesis. This hypothesis posits that Mark was the first Gospel to be written and that both Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source. Additionally, Matthew and Luke also drew from another hypothetical document called Q 1 3.

The Synoptic Problem has been a topic of debate for centuries and has been described as “the most fascinating literary enigma of all time” 1. While no conclusive solution has been found yet, the Two-Source Hypothesis remains the most widely accepted theory 3.

 

[Always in His Presence]

The Synoptic Problem is a term used to describe the literary relationship between the first three Gospels of the New Testament: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. These three Gospels are called the synoptic Gospels because they share many similarities in terms of content, structure, and wording 1.

The Synoptic Problem is concerned with determining the precise relationships between these three Gospels. Scholars have noted the alternating array of agreements and disagreements among the three Gospels and have wondered why and how the disparities came to be 2.

The most widely accepted solution to the Synoptic Problem is the Two-Source Hypothesis. This hypothesis posits that Mark was the first Gospel to be written and that both Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source. Additionally, Matthew and Luke also drew from another hypothetical document called Q 1 3.

The Synoptic Problem has been a topic of debate for centuries and has been described as “the most fascinating literary enigma of all time” 1. While no conclusive solution has been found yet, the Two-Source Hypothesis remains the most widely accepted theory 3.

It further proves to old saying. Wikipedia is to Britanica what Star Search is to Juilliard.

In other words once again there is a disagreement in theology and our stances.

Isn’t it interesting that Mark and Luke, while writers of the Gospels were not part of the 12.

They wrote of first hand accounts, which is why the three are Synoptic in places.

 

[St_Worm2]

This widely misapplied verse refers to the attributes of Christ, not his instructions.

Hebrews 13
7 Remember those who led you, ~who spoke the word of God to you~; and considering the result of their conduct, imitate their faith.
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange ~teachings~; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were so occupied were not benefited.

Hello Guojing, I know that a few have come to the conclusion that you have, but I remain unsure about how such a conclusion can be reached (unless one takes the position that v8 was dropped into Chapter 13 as a distinct/solo teaching, IOW, as something added in spite of, rather than as a compliment to, the context that we find in Chapter 13).

The immediate/surrounding context (as well the whole of Chapter 13) makes it clear that it is the consistency of the Lord Jesus' teaching that is principally/most directly in view. To believe otherwise requires that we strip v8 from the very context that we find it in (or so it seems to me anyway).

This is not to say that the primary meaning of His being the same yesterday, today and forever is all that statement about Him is referring to, it is not, but it certainly is part of it, especially in this particular context.

Perhaps I am wrong about this, or perhaps I am misunderstanding you in some way. If you believe that is the case, that I am wrong for some reason, please show me/us why (including how the context of Chapter 13 led you to conclude what you did above).

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

Well for one thing, do you think this conclusion of the Lord's prayer apply today?

Matthew 6:14-15 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

I'll answer this quickly, but this seems to be taking us pretty far afield from the OP topic (which is a no-no, as I know you know ).

V14-15 concerns a believer's ongoing relationship with God and the state or condition of that relationship with Him, not salvation itself. How do we know this, you ask? Because we are saved, from here to Glory, by God's grace through faith, not by ~anything~ that 'we' do (which includes the sinful behavior of refusing to forgive someone who has asked to be forgiven). IOW, our relationship with God, specifically the closeness and fellowship with Him that we normally experience, will suffer when we fail to forgive someone who asks us to (just like it always does when we sin), but our salvation will not be lost.

So yes, v14-15 means the same thing today as it did when He first preached it during the Sermon on the Mount, 2,000+ years ago.

Now, let's get back to the topic at hand, yes

--David

 

[ralliann]

"The great commission" must be understood within the context of the narrative it is found in to understand its importance today. And within the context of that narrative its importance is not a matter of who the imperative commands to act, but who the message is to be carried to. The gospel of Matthew serves as an apologetic for why the suffering Christ is the fulfillment of Jewish messianic promises, and one of the themes of messianic thought was that the messiah was primarily a blessing for the jews themselves. This theme is reinforced in the course of Matthew's narrative where Jesus says things like being sent only for the lost sheep of Israel and restricting the preaching of his followers to Israel, even excluding Samaria. So what the great commission functions as is a reversal of that restriction, a command to bring the gospel message to the gentiles and bring them into the fold. The impetus for carrying that message today is not a function of the command in the narrative, though. That comes from the nature of the message itself and requires no command.

Yeah, the Apostles were Jew's.

 

[ralliann]

It has nothing to do with Jews or gentiles. Nearly all of the successors of the apostles today are gentiles.

But when you see a person claiming to be carrying out the great commission simply ask them how many people they've baptized.

Good question.