Can you prove it?

[Soyeong]

I am confident that EO, OO, and Catholic Christians argue that apostolic succession is the very life blood of perpetuating the gospel across the generations and that it is at the heart of evangelisation.

The issue is that when Jesus spread the Gospel calling for us to repent, the Mosaic Law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is a Gospel that EO, OO, and Catholic Christians oppose.

 

[Hammster]

Giving up before you start is a defeatist approach.

I’m not giving up. You are the one who brought up proof. I’m just asking what you will accept as proof. Apparently you haven’t thought it through. I’m giving you the opportunity to do so.

 

[Dan Perez]

With that kind of reasoning then all evangelism must be done by Jews. This is an absurdity. Why do you propose it in a serious discussion?

ABSURDITY you say , WHY ?

Matt 28 : 16 , by CONTEXT is speaking to the ELEVEN DISCIPLES who are all JEWS and in verse 19 , Jesus commissions them to TEACH and to ALL NATIONS // ETHNOS and what does that MEAN ??

Then in verse 19 to teach to OBSERVE all things whatsoever I have commanded and that is speaking about the Law of Moses and that means CIRCUMCISION >

Also since you have Priests and 613 Laws that governed Israel HOW are woman saved in you church since CIRCUMCISION was still in EFFECT in ACT 15 and how was Peter saved ?

dan p

 

[Strong in Him]

ABSURDITY you say , WHY ?

Matt 28 : 16 , by CONTEXT is speaking to the ELEVEN DISCIPLES who are all JEWS and in verse 19 , Jesus commissions them to TEACH and to ALL NATIONS // ETHNOS and what does that MEAN ??

Then in verse 19 to teach to OBSERVE all things whatsoever I have commanded and that is speaking about the Law of Moses and that means CIRCUMCISION >

Jesus never said that Gentiles had to obey the law of Moses, nor that Gentile men should be circumcised.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Jesus never said that Gentiles had to obey the law of Moses, nor that Gentile men should be circumcised.

Interesting, but what has that to do with the OP?

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?

The OP question is "can it be proven that Jesus's teaching applies directly to Christians living today if he, in context, is addressing Jews, a first century crowd, or his own first century disciples? And if one argues that his words do indeed apply to Christians today then how does that hermeneutic principle reflect on the idea that What Jesus gifted to the apostles applies to the bishops of today who are regarded as successors to the apostles?

 

[Strong in Him]

Interesting, but what has that to do with the OP?

I wasn't addressing the OP, I was responding to another post.

The OP question is "can it be proven that Jesus's teaching applies directly to Christians living today

It is for Christians living today, just as the whole NT is. No one says "we don't need to read the Gospels/epistles because they were written to people who died before we were born."
Jesus was speaking to the 12; his disciples. We, today, are his disciples - and, quite simply, if we don't go and make other disciples, the Christian faith won't grow.

And if one argues that his words do indeed apply to Christians today then how does that hermeneutic principle reflect on the idea that What Jesus gifted to the apostles applies to the bishops of today who are regarded as successors to the apostles?

Jesus didn't "gift" this to his disciples - he told them to go out, tell others about him and make disciples.
The word "Apostle" means "sent". It is most often used of the 12, but applies to anyone who had been sent. Jesus was sent by God, Paul and Barnabas were sent by the 12, Paul sent Timothy, Epaphroditus etc. There is at least 1 verse in the NT where the word "Apostle" applies to all believers.
Today, Christians tend to refer to themselves as disciples, rather than Apostles. But we are still sent out - to go and tell others about Jesus, to love, support and pray for one another, to confess our sins to one another and to forgive.

 

[JulieB67]

1. Apostolic succession is only recorded in the Bible for Judas. Even James was not "replaced" according to scripture.

Exactly. And we see that 12 thrones are reserved especially for them.

 

[The Liturgist]

It has nothing to do with Jews or gentiles. Nearly all of the successors of the apostles today are gentiles.

But when you see a person claiming to be carrying out the great commission simply ask them how many people they've baptized.

Amen to that.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It has nothing to do with Jews or gentiles. Nearly all of the successors of the apostles today are gentiles.

But when you see a person claiming to be carrying out the great commission simply ask them how many people they've baptized.

It is interesting how people read words but to not notice what they say.

And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. And seeing him they adored: but some doubted. And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Going therefore, teach ye all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost. Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.​

(Matthew 28:16-20 DRB)
Teach, baptise, observe commandments, and then a promise to be with them all days until the consummation of the world.
the evangelical people I have met who have claimed that they fulfil this passage usually do not administer baptism and teach very little, some of them teach people not to observe the commandments because that's "Old Testament" and "you're justified by faith alone" they say. They could not be more wrong, and less faithful to the words of Christ. One hopes that their pastors do better.

 

[Strong in Him]

the evangelical people I have met who have claimed that they fulfil this passage usually do not administer baptism

To be fair, anyone can baptise - as in emergency baptism of an infants, for example. But in practice it is almost never done by anyone other than the clergy.
As a lay preacher I am allowed to baptise, though no one ever asks me. But I suspect that were I to explain the Gospel to someone, they became a Christian, wanted to be baptised and I went and dunked them in the River Dee, someone would either complain or say that it wasn't a valid baptism.

Making disciples, though, is something that should be done by all Christians.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

To be fair, anyone can baptise - as in emergency baptism of an infants, for example. But in practice it is almost never done by anyone other than the clergy.
As a lay preacher I am allowed to baptise, though no one ever asks me. But I suspect that were I to explain the Gospel to someone, they became a Christian, wanted to be baptised and I went and dunked them in the River Dee, someone would either complain or say that it wasn't a valid baptism.

Making disciples, though, is something that should be done by all Christians.

So, how many people have you personally baptised?

 

[Strong in Him]

So, how many people have you personally baptised?

None - no one's asked me.

 

[St_Worm2]

Teach, baptise, observe commandments, and then a promise to be with them all days until the consummation of the world.

Hello Xeno, interestingly, you forgot two of the Lord's commands in your breakdown of v19, did you not (the two 'principal' commands of the Great Commission, actually), "Go" and "Make Disciples"

While it's certainly true that Matthew 28:19-20 is what is directly referred to as "The Great Commission", the Lord did say other things to us just prior to His Ascension, things that expand our understanding of The Great Commision (that are indeed part of it), the most important things that He wanted us to do going forward, following His Ascension.

Mark 16​

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. ​

​

Acts 1​

8 "You will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” ​

the evangelical people I have met who have claimed that they fulfil this passage usually do not administer baptism and teach very little, some of them teach people not to observe the commandments because that's "Old Testament" and "you're justified by faith alone" they say. They could not be more wrong, and less faithful to the words of Christ. One hopes that their pastors do better.

I believe that it is possible to participate in/help fulfil The Great Commission without completing every part of it in each person's life.

Take the Apostle Paul, for instance, who certainly fulfilled command #1 of The Great Commission which is "Go". And no one would argue that He failed to present the Gospel and lead people to Christ, and/or teach them, then, how to grow up in the faith/in Christlikeness.

But did he "fulfil" the Great Commission in the manner that you suggest above? Here are two important points that he made that need to be considered in regard to that.

1 Corinthians 1​

17 Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void. ​

​

1 Corinthians 3​

6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. ​

7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth. ​

8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one; but each will receive his own reward according to his own labor. ​

The Great Commission is carried out by us all, most often in parts and pieces, which was even true of the Apostles and the Disciples in the 1st Century (as you can clearly see in 1 Corinthians 3:6-8 above).

In fact, the primary (first and foremost) goal of witnessing/evangelism/missions is to be a planter or waterer (of seeds), not a reaper (not that we do not long to see people come to saving faith in Christ personally, but few, if any [unbelievers] do so the first time that they hear the Good News .. Romans 10:17, nor the second time, nor the third, etc.).

So, we don't often meet an unbeliever who we not only get to witness to, but also get to see (personally) come to saving faith, then join the church and get baptized, and then grow to maturity as a believer, but we do get to participate in 'some' of that along the way in people's lives, if we choose to obey command #1 of the Commission to "Go"

You talk about the importance of obeying the Lord's commands, so why not choose to obey this one too? (remembering the fact that it was not the 12 alone who were commissioned and sent by Lord Jesus during His ministry years, but the 70 too, His disciples, which is exactly what 'we' are today, yes?).

BTW, I too have heard people (principally full-time missionaries) say to other believers that they are out there "fulfilling" or "helping to fulfil" the Great Commission, by which they mean that they are part of the "ongoing process" of doing so (which is what is always meant by that statement).

God bless you!!

--David

 

[St_Worm2]

Remember too what I posited from the Catechism of the Catholic Church (in post #50 of this thread) concerning the laity and witnessing/evangelism/missions, which in part said,

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better “those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God.”360 They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil “for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man.” (839; 843)[1]​

​

900 Like all the faithful, ~lay Christians~ are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it.[2]​

​

Participation in Christ's prophetic office​

​

904 “Christ … fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy … but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word” (785; 92)​

​

To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher AND of each believer.[3]​

This comes from the RCC, of course. Does the EOC have similar beliefs/teachings regarding lay witnessing/preaching/evangelism by its congregants? Surely it must! To be fair, and as I also said earlier in this thread, I have had no personal experience, knowledge of (or even any sense of) any of the RC or EO laity choosing to participate in witnessing or evangelism (quite the opposite actually), but RC's do (at least) have the above teaching (and more) which is good

Thanks!

--David

 

[BobRyan]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount.

The Sermon on the mount starts in Matt 5 and goes through Matt 7.

Matt 7 ends this way --

28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

IT was everyone - a large multitude - none of them "hand picked".

Then in Matt 28:
18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective?

Those two texts above make it very clear.

So then without taking an opposing bias to the text - it is clearly stating that they were to teach everyone what Christ taught "the people".

What is more - the book of Matthew itself -- is one of Christ's disciples fulfilling that very mission which is why we today are still reading AND teaching Christ's "Sermon on the mount".

 

[St_Worm2]

Does the EOC have similar beliefs/teachings regarding lay witnessing/preaching/evangelism by its congregants [that the RCC does]? Surely it must!??

Hello @Xeno.of.athens, your OP title question was, "can you prove it?". Well, now that you've seen a bit more of what the Bible has to say (though granted, there is MUCH more), and what the Catholic Church teaches about ongoing lay evangelism, as well, have we done enough to "prove it" to you?

Lastly, what is the official EOC teaching concerning lay evangelism/witnessing (in the sense of the Gospel and outreach to the world, that is)? I know that you guys have not defined your beliefs as thoroughly/succinctly as the RCC has (quite frankly, no one has, not even close .. they are TRULY impressive in that regard, yes!?), but surely there must be some sort of EOC teaching concerning this VERY important topic!?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hello @Xeno.of.athens, your OP title question was, "can you prove it?". Well, now that you've seen a bit more of what the Bible has to say (though granted, there is MUCH more), and what the Catholic Church teaches about ongoing lay evangelism, as well, have we done enough to "prove it" to you?

Not really, evangelisation is a lay role as well as a clergy role but the great commission with its command to teach and baptise is aimed at the clergy rather than the laity.

As a note concerning the title, it is not so much about proving anything as raising the question "does what Jesus said apply to subsequent generations?" and the implication is that if it does then apostolic succession is encompassed by the same hermeneutic.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hello again @Xeno.of.athens, I have (temporarily) moved away from focusing on RC teachings and have begun looking into EO teachings instead. I quickly came upon this prayer and others like it tonight (on Orthodox Wiki, just FYI), so I thought that I'd share it with you because it has some interesting things to say in regard to the topic at hand (and it's too late to continue looking into more EO teachings tonight anyway).

So, here you go.

Orthodox Prayers for Missions​

O Christ our God, the source of wisdom and Bridegroom of the Church,You called the Apostles to follow You and to become fishers of men,giving them authority to cast out unclean spirits and to heal every disease and infirmity.You commissioned them to make disciples of all nations and to feed Your sheep.On the day of Pentecost, You sent the Holy Spirit to fortify them, enabling them to fill people’s lives with Your saving love.Continue to act today, loving Savior, for the good of Your Holy Church. Send Your Holy Spirit upon dedicated men and women; inspire them to respond to Your Great Commission and to serve You as missionaries, for the building up of Your Body, the Church. Through the prayers of all the holy missionary saints, strengthen all who are preparing to serve and those who serve Your Holy Church in humility and love. For You are a loving and merciful God, and unto You we give glory, together with Your eternal Father, and Your all-holy, good and life-giving Spirit, now and forever and unto ages of ages. Amen.​

​

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - I will return with more of what I find tomorrow evening or on Monday (if I find more, that is).

 

[Aussie Pete]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?

Matthew 28:
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

What did Jesus command His disciples to do? Make disciples of all nations. He told His disciples to teach the new disciples to obey all that Jesus commanded the first disciples. So those disciples, they were to make disciples who were to make disciples until the end of the age. It's not the end of the age, unless I missed something.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Not really, evangelisation is a lay role as well as a clergy role but the great commission with its command to teach and baptise is aimed at the clergy rather than the laity.

As a note concerning the title, it is not so much about proving anything as raising the question "does what Jesus said apply to subsequent generations?" and the implication is that if it does then apostolic succession is encompassed by the same hermeneutic.

Where did the idea of clergy/laity divide come from? Not from the Bible.