Can you prove it?

[St_Worm2]

Jesus taught the necessity of following the Law of Moses to be saved. (Matthew 5, Matthew 19:16-17)

Hello Guojing, I haven't gotten back to you about this post, so I will at least begin to do so now (Dv).

There are a couple of things that I'd like to talk about before getting to it though, the first of which concerns a statement that appears in Matthew 19, but is made a bit more clearly in the corresponding passages (in Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19), and then the Lord's response to that address, as well, which is found in all three passages, but a bit more fully again, in the latter two passages (where He adds the qualifying phrase, "no one is good except God alone").

So, looking (for now) at the latter passages (where the ruler addresses the Lord as "good teacher", and the Lord replies by asking him, "Why do your call Me good? No one is good except God alone"), why did the Lord Jesus take the time to say that to him? What was His purpose in doing so do you think

Finally, while I will comment on the rest of Matthew 19, what is there to talk about (in regard to obeying the commandments to obtain salvation) in Matthew 5 The only thing that even touches on that topic in Matthew 5 is the extremely serious nature of sin, and the fact that even those who kept the Law perfectly (the Pharisees, who went as far as tithing their mint and cumin) would not/could not be saved by doing so, nevertheless.

So, please let me know what your thoughts are about the "good teacher" portion of the passages, and then I'll return to Matthew 19 and address the rest of it.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

Matthew 19​

16 Someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” ​

17 And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” ​

18 Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; ​

19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” ​

20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” ​

21 Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” ​

22 But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property. ​

.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

@St_Worm2 @Guojing , seems like there is no agreement between you about what the gospel is!

Catholics know what the gospel is. We are invited to lead holy lives, not only because our Divine Founder, Jesus Christ, was holy, but also because we bear His venerable name. We are called Christians. That is a name we would not exchange for all the high-sounding titles of Prince or Emperor. We are justly proud of this appellation of Christian; but we are reminded that it has annexed to it a corresponding obligation. It is not an idle name, but one full of solemn significance; for a Christian, as the very name implies, is a follower or disciple of Christ—one who walks in the footsteps of his Master by observing His precepts; who reproduces in his own life the character and virtues of his Divine Model. In a word, a Christian is another Christ. It would, therefore, be a contradiction in terms, if a Christian had nothing in common with his Lord except the name. The disciple should imitate his Master, the soldier should imitate his Commander, and the members should be like the Head.

 

[Guojing]

So, looking (for now) at the latter passages (where the ruler addresses the Lord as "good teacher", and the Lord replies by asking him, "Why do your call Me good? No one is good except God alone"), why did the Lord Jesus take the time to say that to him? What was His purpose in doing so do you think

So, please let me know what your thoughts are about the "good teacher" portion of the passages, and then I'll return to Matthew 19 and address the rest of it.

I prefer to understand scripture as literally as I can, so when Jesus told him to follow the 10 commandments to obtain eternal life, I believe he was not joking.

There was a righteousness that came from following the Law, before Paul (Luke 1:6)

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

There was a righteousness that came from following the Law, before Paul

Paul is not our Saviour, the Lord, Jesus the Christ, is.

 

[Guojing]

Paul is not our Saviour, the Lord, Jesus the Christ, is.

When I said before Paul, what I meant is before Paul revealed the revelation of the mystery in his letters to us gentiles.

 

[St_Worm2]

@St_Worm2 @Guojing , seems like there is no agreement between you about what the gospel is!

Whoa there Nelly , we're just getting started

 

[St_Worm2]

I prefer to understand scripture as literally as I can, so when Jesus told him to follow the 10 commandments to obtain eternal life, I believe he was not joking.

Hello again Gjojing, I don't think that He was joking either, but one thing that the Lord knew for certain (that the young ruler apparently did not) was that he/the ruler did NOT keep the commandments (like he claimed to do), which we also know is true because no one can ("keep" the commandments just like Jesus did, that is, which would be the requirement for obtaining eternal life in that manner).

As far as understanding the Scriptures "literally" goes, let's take a look at another verse from the Lord Jesus to see whether you would apply the same hermeneutical principle to it (as it also seems to contradict what is taught throughout the rest of the Bible). Here it is,

Luke 14​

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."​

So, can your same principle (of literal interpretation) be applied to what the Lord Jesus says in v26 above? Why?/Why not?

How about here?

1 Timothy 2​

15 Women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.​

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Guojing]

Hello again Gjojing, I don't think that He was joking either, but one thing that the Lord knew for certain (that the young ruler apparently did not) was that he/the ruler did NOT keep the commandments (like he claimed to do), which we also know is true because no one can ("keep" the commandments just like Jesus did, that is, which would be the requirement for obtaining eternal life in that manner).

As far as understanding the Scriptures "literally" goes, let's take a look at another verse from the Lord Jesus to see whether you would apply the same hermeneutical principle to it (as it also seems to contradict what is taught throughout the rest of the Bible). Here it is,

Luke 14​

26 “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple."​

So, can your same principle (of literal interpretation) be applied to what the Lord Jesus says in v26 above? Why?/Why not?

--David

A lot of these "tough" instructions, including selling all your possessions, the ones about plucking out your eyes and cutting off limbs, will make more sense if you are aware that Jesus coming to Israel was not a surprise to any Jew who understands Daniel's prophetic timetable.

That is why Mary was not shocked when Gabriel told her she will give birth to the Messiah. Jews who study the OT know that the time is imminent for the birth of the Son of God.

If you were a Jew living in the time of Jesus's first coming, you will know these 2 things

1. For Israel to enter the kingdom of God, under the gospel of the kingdom, faith in Jesus + obeying the Law are required.
2. Daniel's 70th week will begin soon for Israel, since the Messiah will be "cut off" in week 69th.

So let me give an example how you can understand Luke 14:26, suppose during the 70th week, your wife decides to take the mark of the beast because she wants to participate in the market economy.

If you are unable to "hate" her, can you imagine you taking the mark after her because you want to be with her? But if you were to do that, you will have committed an unpardonable sin.

You understand my point?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

because no one can ("keep" the commandments just like Jesus did, that is, which would be the requirement for obtaining eternal life in that manner).

What of Enoch and Blessed Mary?

 

[Strong in Him]

I prefer to understand scripture as literally as I can, so when Jesus told him to follow the 10 commandments to obtain eternal life, I believe he was not joking.

No, he wasn't. But the man showed that he didn't keep them.

He asked Jesus, which commandments he should keep, and Jesus quoted only the last 5 commandments; those that relate to loving your neighbour.
Why didn't the man reply; "you've missed out the first 5; you shall not have any other gods before the Lord, do not make any idols" etc?
Because he loved his money more than anything else, and was making an idol of it. Jesus knew this, told him to give it up and the man went away sad. If he had loved God more than he loved his money and really wanted eternal life, he would have done what Jesus asked.

Jesus summed up the 10 commandments by saying "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and love your neighbour as yourself."
On our own we cannot love God fully and perfectly. The Jews showed that in the OT when they disobeyed him again and again. Jesus told us to love one another as he loves us - he loves us with divine, agape love. We cannot love God with this kind of love until we have first received it. And John says that God's love for us ids shown by the cross, 1 John 3:16.

 

[Studyman]

You, too, are built upon the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets, the cornerstone being Christ Jesus himself. He is the one who holds the whole building together and makes it grow into a sacred temple dedicated to the Lord. In union with him you too are being built together with all the others into a place where God lives through his Spirit.
(Ephesians 2:20-22 GNB)

Yes, the foundation has been laid by the Prophets and Apostles, the cornerstone being the Holy One of Israel, the Rock, the Lord's Christ. All written down for our admonition, and these Oracles of God delivered into our own homes, into our own minds as the Spirit of Christ which was on Jeremiah Prophesied.

As Paul teaches;

Rom. 12: 1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, "holy, acceptable unto God", which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!
(Galatians 1:8 GNB)

This is why I will not adopt this world's religions, because they preach a different gospel than the foundation which was Laid, the Cornerstone being the Lord's Christ.

Take the teachings that you heard me proclaim in the presence of many witnesses, and entrust them to reliable people, who will be able to teach others also.
(2 Timothy 2:2 GNB)

2 Tim. 3: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. "Every man" therefore that hath heard, and hath learned "of the Father", cometh unto me.

The foundation has truly already been laid. But this world's religions have always rejected this foundation and have created their own. By their own admission this is true. They profess that God sent them to change the foundation, using the manmade doctrine of "Apostolic succession" as justification for their works.

The Jesus "of the Bible" saw this coming, and because HE Loves me, HE warned me of this very thing.

Matt. 7: 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Now I am forwarding this foundation on to others, in the hopes that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

The Church, says St. Paul, is “built upon the foundation laid by the apostles and prophets,” so that the doctrine which it propagates must be based on Apostolic teachings.

Apostolic teaching that are founded on the Prophets. You continue to omit this important part of Paul's Teaching.

2 Tim. 3: 16 All scripture is given by inspiration "of God", and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

There are huge, wealthy religious businesses, the richest and most power religions of the world, who came into power over 3 centuries after Paul was reported to have said this, who preach that God sent them to change the foundation walked in by the Lord's Christ, the Prophets, and the Disciples God Chose as a witness to the arrival of the Prophesied Priest of God.

I believe Jesus saw this coming and warned those who would join the Church of God which existed from the very beginning.

Matt. 24: 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

These would be men who claimed to be "Apostles of Christ", Yes? Would they not also promote "Apostolic succession".

So who are these "many" that Jesus warned about, who claim to be "Apostles of Christ"? Surely we should be able to identify them, by their works.

Hence St. Paul says to the Galatians: “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel that is different from the one we preached to you, may he be condemned to hell!” The same Apostle gives this admonition to Timothy: “the teachings that you heard me proclaim in the presence of many witnesses, and entrust them to reliable people, who will be able to teach others also.”

No doubt this is true. So what does Paul teach both Jew and Gentile?

Acts 26: 19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Is this not the foundation of the Law and Prophets as well? But Paul is accused of teaching against the Law and Prophets, even to this day. What does St. Paul actually tell us in defense of this accusations?

Acts 24: 13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.

14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Timothy must transmit to his disciples only such doctrines as he heard from the lips of his Master.

Absolutely, and his Master, and Paul's Master was the Christ, and the Christ's Master is the One True God who laid the foundation. As Paul also teaches.

Eph. 4: 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

We have the Oracles of God, the Foundation He created for His People to build on. We have the testimony of those who built on this foundation. We have examples of those who rejected God's Foundation, and created their own. According to Paul, the man of God had everything he needed to be accepted by God, 357 years before the greatest religious businesses of this world even existed.

Apostolic succession is completely biblical.

We know there will be "many" who will Claim to be Apostol's of Christ, who claim God sent them, but HE didn't.

How will we know the difference between a man who is truly an Apostle of Christ sent by God, from those who transform themselves into Apostles of Christ, that Paul and Jesus and the Prophets warned about?

By the Gospel they preach we will know. If the Gospel they promote, isn't the same as the Gospel the Prophets and the Apostles of the Scriptures promoted, then there is no Light in them. As it is written;

Is. 8: 20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

And again;

Gal. 1: 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

 

[Studyman]

No, he wasn't. But the man showed that he didn't keep them.

This is absolutely true. This man "said" he kept God's Commandments, but he had rejected the very first and greatest commandment of all. In like manner, he "Called" Jesus "Master", but could not accept His Teaching if it meant to forsake what was most important to him.

This is why the many differing religions of this world are so successful, in my view. Because they promote a philosophy in which a man can keep all those things which are most precious to him, and still be accepted by God. This man most certainly didn't stop going to whatever religious business or sect he had adopted. And they would accept him with open arms, glad for his contributions.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

No, he wasn't. But the man showed that he didn't keep them.

This is absolutely true. This man "said" he kept God's Commandments, but he had rejected the very first and greatest commandment of all. In like manner, he "Called" Jesus "Master", but could not accept His Teaching if it meant to forsake what was most important to him.

This is why the many differing religions of this world are so successful, in my view. Because they promote a philosophy in which a man can keep all those things which are most precious to him, and still be accepted by God. This man most certainly didn't stop going to whatever religious business or sect he had adopted. And they would accept him with open arms, glad for his contributions.

I wonder if the young man was as big a failure as your analysis suggests?

The passage has the young man say, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" I think that the young man was speaking as truthfully as he was able to speak. Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Now the question here is, do you do the things that Jesus said would help the young man be perfect? Do Jesus' words apply to you? This question is in keeping with the topic's theme, "Can you prove it?", do Jesus' words apply to you?

---

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments." He said to him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbour as yourself." The young man said to him, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. And Jesus said to his disciples, "Truly, I say to you, only with difficulty will a rich person enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" But Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Then Peter said in reply, "See, we have left everything and followed you. What then will we have?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, I say to you, in the new world, when the Son of Man will sit on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life. But many who are first will be last, and the last first.
(Matthew 19:16-30 ESV)

 

[Strong in Him]

I wonder if the young man was as big a failure as your analysis suggests?

The passage has the young man say, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" I think that the young man was speaking as truthfully as he was able to speak.

Yes, I'm sure he was.
He said to Jesus, "I have kept these; what do I still lack?" He must have known that the commandments that Jesus had repeated to him were only half of them. Why didn't he say to Jesus, "well you haven't said that I need to keep the command about not having an idol, so I'll keep my money, thank you."
Even if he'd kept perfectly all the commands that Jesus mentioned, he would still only have kept half of the 10.

 

[Studyman]

I wonder if the young man was as big a failure as your analysis suggests?

The passage has the young man say, "All these I have kept. What do I still lack?" I think that the young man was speaking as truthfully as he was able to speak.

This represents most religious men. If I asked a man, who "Professed to know God", if they obeyed Him, they would all say yes. Even the Pharisees claimed to obey God.

The point of my post was to show that there are "many" insanely wealthy religious businesses, and powerful religious corporations of this world I was born into, who would gladly accept this rich man as he walked away from Jesus. And these religions would provide for him "another Jesus", who would allow this rich man to preserve his idols, his earthly desires, his riches, and still "Enter Life".

Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." Now the question here is, do you do the things that Jesus said would help the young man be perfect? Do Jesus' words apply to you? This question is in keeping with the topic's theme, "Can you prove it?", do Jesus' words apply to you?

As I already pointed out, there are "many" deceivers who self-identify as "Apostles of Christ" that we are told to "Take Heed" of. So, for this reason I would only trust the words of those who I know God Sent.

Did Jesus go around giving money to random poor people? He certainly could have, but HE didn't. He didn't go around healing random poor people either. He could have, but HE didn't. Is this what HE commanded, for men to give money to random poor people?? Of course not. Hear what HE, that is, the Jesus "of the Bible" says about this very thing.

Luke 4: 25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; 26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. 27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. 28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

So it wasn't about the rich man giving money to random poor people, although this practice is common among religious men.

Mark 4: 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

So the point of this story Jesus told, in my view, was not so men would give money to random poor people, but that they might understand the dangers of riches and lusts of the heart, which has snared many into leaving the Jesus "of the Bible" and following the image of God in the likeness of men, that the religious businesses of this world promote.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The point of my post was to show that there are "many" insanely wealthy religious businesses, and powerful religious corporations of this world I was born into, who would gladly accept this rich man as he walked away from Jesus.

What do you mean when you wrote, "insanely wealthy religious businesses", and "powerful religious corporations"? Do you mean companies like Apple or do you mean something else?

 

[Studyman]

What do you mean when you wrote, "insanely wealthy religious businesses", and "powerful religious corporations"? Do you mean companies like Apple or do you mean something else?

LOL, I don't think "Apple" is a Religious Corporation. You are a sharp guy I know you know the answer to this question. "What are the 5 Richest Religious Businesses of this world?"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

LOL, I don't think "Apple" is a Religious Corporation. You are a sharp guy I know you know the answer to this question. "What are the 5 Richest Religious Businesses of this world?"

Do you really mean "religions"? It is a little odd to refer to them as "religious businesses".

But this is straying from the topic of the OP. So let's return to it and leave the word play.

 

[Studyman]

Do you really mean "religions"? It is a little odd to refer to them as "religious businesses".

But this is straying from the topic of the OP. So let's return to it and leave the word play.

I'm not sure what else would you call a religious corporation who trades on the Stock Market? This would be the perfect religion for the rich man to adopt as his own, after he walked away from the Jesus of the Bible. He could be "saved" and still keep his riches. In fact, in the last 7 years, this rich man would have seen a yield if 11 + % return on his investment in the "CATH".

Imagine going from a Priest who tells you to give up your money, to a Priest who would not only let you keep your riches, but through them, increase those riches.

That's a pretty good marketing strategy to increase membership and growth of any business, religious or not.

This investment practice would also be the result of "apostolic succession", Yes? Certainly, the Jesus of the Bible never suggested such a practice. This would be another tradition passed down from religious men through the centuries.

Please note that I'm not condemning such a religious business, simply pointing out that they exist in this world God placed me in. And are promoted by "apostolic succession". Since I have not adopted these religions, I am not offended or sensitive to discussing the reality surrounding them.

I think your OP is a great topic, and good for men to examine and discuss.

CATH​

---

S&P 500 Catholic Values ETF​

Key Information As of 12/11/23​

Inception Date	04/18/16
Total Expense Ratio	0.29%
Net Assets	$753.23 million
NAV	$56.55
Fact Sheet	View the document

ETF Summary​

The Global X S&P 500 Catholic Values ETF (CATH) provides exposure to the companies within the S&P 500 whose business practices adhere to the Socially Responsible Investment Guidelines as outlined by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) and excludes those that do not.

​

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm not sure what else would you call a religious corporation who trades on the Stock Market?

Are you implying that one can buy shares in these religious corporations on the stock market?