Can you prove it?

[AlightSeeker]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?

The great commission in my opinion was given only to the apostles and maybe those who they sent out too under their authority. Not everyone are called to be teachers or evangelists. I suppose anyone can can and should shine some kind of light. God's light is vast. Paul tells us that not everyone is called to do the same things. He says we should desire the best gifts but love is the more excellent way. He says prophecy is what he desired them to have. But in my opinion it depend on which scripture you use. In Romans 12 says that holiness in our body is our first priority.

(Romans 12:1 Therefore I urge you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living and holy sacrifice, [a]acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. 2 And do not be conformed to this [c]world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may [d]prove what the will of God is, that which is good and [e]acceptable and perfect.)

He goes on to list these gifts

(Romans 12:4 For just as we have many parts in one body and all [f]the body’s parts do not have the same function, 5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually parts of one another. 6 However, since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, each of us is to use them properly: if prophecy, [g]in proportion to one’s faith; 7 if [h]service, in the act of serving; or the one who teaches, in the act of teaching; 8 or the one who [i]exhorts, in the work of [j]exhortation; the one who gives, with [k]generosity; the one who [l]is in leadership, with diligence; the one who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.)

These in my opinion are the gifts we see today. We don't however see apostles or healers in my opinion. Its God's way for us that we are alone and without apostles. God doesn't desire more apostles but good teachers and prophets. I dont see any apostles or prophets today. Unless you count the wisdom of the mature that those who sleep cannot see

(Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.)

(1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.).


I think spiritual healing is what God wants. It's no use healing a man's body if his eyes are spiritually blind. The miracles in scripture are signs of Jesus and his apostles. In my opinion they are a symbol of the true healing which is spiritual. Maybe God can still heal physical bodies too But I dont see it happening necessarily. I believe God healed my spiritual blindness. I went through God's chastening first though. And I went though suffering and had to walk by faith and hope. I had to persevere when I couldn't see evidence in myself.

I believe everything the Lord taught is for us. All except for a few things that were for the apostles only. I dont believe we have apostles today. Because for one thing I dont see any. But also the letters to the churches in revelation were written by the Lord himself. There are no apostles except the false ones who are mentioned. Why is he not having his apostles write these letters? Why does he seem to speak to those who can hear what the Spirit says to the churches? My opinion is God removed the apostles after they established doctrine and a church. Jesus himself teaches the church with what the apostles wrote which is scripture. No one has authority to write scripture today. Paul says when leaving the church for good that savage wolves come in after him and not spare the flock. Obviously God didn't want them having an apostle any longer or he would have replaced Paul.

​

 

[AlightSeeker]

If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Wouldn't his word be?

It is the same. But can we see it clearly? Do we understand what it actually means?

 

[AlightSeeker]

I am confident that EO, OO, and Catholic Christians argue that apostolic succession is the very life blood of perpetuating the gospel across the generations and that it is at the heart of evangelisation.

Why did God allow savage wolves to come in after Paul left the church? Why dont we see this succession in that scripture? Why can't the Pope write scripture? That was the job of the apostles. Why in revelation do we see no apostles except false ones? Jesus himself writes these letters to the churches but that's what apostles do. There are no apostles in revelation except false ones.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why can't the Pope write scripture? That was the job of the apostles.

There were 12 apostles chosen by the Lord, how many wrote scripture?
Matthew
John
Peter
Just 3, so why do you want a pope to write scripture?

 

[AlightSeeker]

If Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever. Wouldn't his word be?

God is the same who called Noah, Abraham, and Moses. It was all for his purpose. But those people all lived differently. Noah was allowed to eat anything but blood. Moses was allowed to eat only clean animals and no blood. Gentiles in acts can eat anything they want except blood. Did God change? Did he change when he sent Jesus? We are commanded to drink his blood. What is that blood?

 

[AlightSeeker]

There were 12 apostles chosen by the Lord, how many wrote scripture?
Matthew
John
Peter
Just 3, so why do you want a pope to write scripture?

Paul was an apostle and not one of the 12. You didn't mention Jude. The apostles showed the signs of an apostle. Why doesn't the Pope?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Paul was an apostle and not one of the 12. You didn't mention Jude. The apostles showed the signs of an apostle. Why doesn't the Pope?

That would be because a pope is a bishop - a successor to the apostles of Christ - rather than one of the 12 chosen by Jesus.

Besides, this thread is about biblical interpretation rather than about the popes or the current pope.

 

[AlightSeeker]

That would be because a pope is a bishop - a successor to the apostles of Christ - rather than one of the 12 chosen by Jesus.

Besides, this thread is about biblical interpretation rather than about the popes or the current pope.

The OP is about apostle succession and scripture proving or disproving it. Paul wasn't one of the 12 but had more authority than the Pope.

 

[d taylor]

Peter was an apostle who had the gift of conveying the Holy Spirit. Now read about the samaritans in Acts 8 who believed and were baptized yet still did not receive the Holy Spirit. It's an enlightening story.

You have an example where God is using Peter&John and the laying one of hands to authenticate, that Peter and John are from God as opposed to Simon and his sorcery power.

The unusual method by which the Samaritans received the Spirit (through the laying on of the apostles’ hands) prevented schism and rivalry at the very first. Samaritan religion rejected the claims of Jerusalem, but by receiving the Holy Spirit through the hands of the Jewish apostles, the Samaritan converts are now made to sense their indebtedness to it. Jews despised Samaritans, yet here they ( Peter and John) both lay hands on and pray for them.

Had the Spirit been given in Samaria exactly as it had in Jerusalem, this fact might have been distorted to prove the Samaritan error of down-grading the place God had put His name. The wisdom of God prevents all this.

 

[St_Worm2]

"The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. Can you prove it?

Hello Xeno, I don't know if I can "prove it" to you personally, but you may want to consider the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better “those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God.”360 They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil “for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man.” (839; 843)[1]​

​

900 Since, like all the faithful, lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it[2]​

​

Participation in Christ's prophetic office​

​

904 “Christ … fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy … but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word” (785; 92)​

​

~To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher AND of each believer~.[3]​

​

905 Lay people also fulfill their prophetic mission by evangelization, “that is, the proclamation of Christ by word and the testimony of life.” For lay people, “this evangelization … acquires a specific property and peculiar efficacy because it is accomplished in the ordinary circumstances of the world.” (2044; 2472)​

​

This witness of life, however, is not the sole element in the apostolate; the true apostle is on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers … or to the faithful.[4]​

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - there is much in the Bible that speaks to the evangelistic mission of the church and her people as something that the Lord, His Twelve, and His Seventy began, but did not complete, yes? For instance, He tells BOTH the Twelve and the Seventy to pray that others would also be sent! Why would the Lord Jesus tell them to do this if the Great Commission was to be accomplished by the Twelve and the Seventy only?

Matthew 9​

35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.​

36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.​

37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.​

38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”​

​

Luke 10​

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. ​

2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. ​

.

---

[1] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., pp. 226–227). United States Catholic Conference.
[2] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 238). United States Catholic Conference.
[3] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 239). United States Catholic Conference.
[4] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 239). United States Catholic Conference.
[5] New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Mt 9:35–38). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.

 

[St_Worm2]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount.

Hello again Xeno, I was also interested in what you said about the Sermon on the Mount, as you seem to be insinuating that it was meant for the Twelve alone (or at best, for all who were there to hear it).

This seems a particularly odd belief to me, especially when you consider what it says and what it contains (including the Lord's Prayer .. Matthew 6:9-13 and the Golden Rule .. Matthew 7:12), but if that's what you truly believe, please explain why you do.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The OP is about apostle succession and scripture proving or disproving it. Paul wasn't one of the 12 but had more authority than the Pope.

I think reading the OP again will reveal that it is not exactly about what you say it is about.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Hello Xeno, I don't know if I can "prove it" to you personally, but you may want to consider the following from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

856 The missionary task implies a respectful dialogue with those who do not yet accept the Gospel. Believers can profit from this dialogue by learning to appreciate better “those elements of truth and grace which are found among peoples, and which are, as it were, a secret presence of God.”360 They proclaim the Good News to those who do not know it, in order to consolidate, complete, and raise up the truth and the goodness that God has distributed among men and nations, and to purify them from error and evil “for the glory of God, the confusion of the demon, and the happiness of man.” (839; 843)[1]​

​

900 Since, like all the faithful, lay Christians are entrusted by God with the apostolate by virtue of their Baptism and Confirmation, they have the right and duty, individually or grouped in associations, to work so that the divine message of salvation may be known and accepted by all men throughout the earth. This duty is the more pressing when it is only through them that men can hear the Gospel and know Christ. Their activity in ecclesial communities is so necessary that, for the most part, the apostolate of the pastors cannot be fully effective without it[2]​

​

Participation in Christ's prophetic office​

​

904 “Christ … fulfills this prophetic office, not only by the hierarchy … but also by the laity. He accordingly both establishes them as witnesses and provides them with the sense of the faith [sensus fidei] and the grace of the word” (785; 92)​

​

~To teach in order to lead others to faith is the task of every preacher AND of each believer~.[3]​

​

905 Lay people also fulfill their prophetic mission by evangelization, “that is, the proclamation of Christ by word and the testimony of life.” For lay people, “this evangelization … acquires a specific property and peculiar efficacy because it is accomplished in the ordinary circumstances of the world.” (2044; 2472)​

​

This witness of life, however, is not the sole element in the apostolate; the true apostle is on the lookout for occasions of announcing Christ by word, either to unbelievers … or to the faithful.[4]​

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - there is much in the Bible that speaks to the evangelistic mission of the church and her people as something that the Lord, His Twelve, and His Seventy began, but did not complete, yes? For instance, He tells BOTH the Twelve and the Seventy to pray that others would also be sent! Why would the Lord Jesus tell them to do this if the Great Commission was to be accomplished by the Twelve and the Seventy only?

Matthew 9​

35 Jesus was going through all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.​

36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.​

37 Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.​

38 “Therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out workers into His harvest.”​

​

Luke 10​

1 After this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. ​

2 And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. ​

.

---

[1] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., pp. 226–227). United States Catholic Conference.
[2] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 238). United States Catholic Conference.
[3] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 239). United States Catholic Conference.
[4] Catholic Church. (2000). Catechism of the Catholic Church (2nd Ed., p. 239). United States Catholic Conference.
[5] New American Standard Bible: 1995 update (Mt 9:35–38). (1995). The Lockman Foundation.

Thanks, I did know about the CCC sections that you quoted. But the OP is about a system of interpretation that evangelicals as well as Catholics typically apply and that is, in my opinion, justified. But the use of that hermeneutic has implications for evangelical attempts to refute apostolic succession so I raised the questions in the OP to see how consistent people are willing to be in their hermeneutics.

 

[St_Worm2]

...the OP is about a system of interpretation that evangelicals as well as Catholics typically apply and that is, in my opinion, justified. But the use of that hermeneutic has implications for evangelical attempts to refute apostolic succession so I raised the questions in the OP to see how consistent people are willing to be in their hermeneutics.

That's interesting, because IMHO, quite the opposite is true (if a consistent hermeneutic is what is being sought). IOW, what would not be justified in all of this is the Catholic Church's teaching about apostolic succession, which is not Biblical.

If it was, we Protestants would be at the front of the line cheering it on as such, just like we do with everything else that's taught in the Bible

God bless you!!

--David
p.s. - this has left me a bit confused about that you believe, including what you believe about the Sermon on the Mount (that I focused on in my last post, #51). Are you saying that, generally speaking, our beliefs about all of these things, the universality of the Great Commission, etc., are actually the same, with apostolic succession being the sole exception? Thanks

 

[AlightSeeker]

I think reading the OP again will reveal that it is not exactly about what you say it is about.

Maybe you're right.

 

[AlightSeeker]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?

What part of the Sermon on the mount isn't for us? Jesus said in that Sermon not to store money on earth or to worry about the concerns of this life. He said you can't serve God and money. Paul teaches pretty much the same to timothy and said anyone who doesn't agree with wholesome words, those ofJesus, then they're lacking in knowledge. What words of Jesus is he referring to? It sounds like he may be teaching from the sermon on the mount to me. Paul teaches us that Jesus said its more blessed to give than receive. Where does Jesus teach is that? I dont see how Jesus teaching and those of Paul are different. How is it different?

 

[Strong in Him]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age.

It wasn't addressed to Christians living today.
It applies to Christians living today; we are Christ's disciples too.

Why ought anyone take that perspective?

No reason at all, unless they are saying that they were there at the time.
But we, today, are Christ's disciples; believing in him, living for him. So many of his teachings apply to us as well.

And what about "apostolic succession",

What about it?
I'm not entirely sure what it means, but why would it affect the things which Jesus taught?
How does believing/not believing in the apostolic succession change the fact that Jesus told his disciples to love their enemies, for example?

 

[AlightSeeker]

So who marked them with the seal if not the apostles. Every time we see it described it is always by the apostles and never by mere belief. In fact it specifically states that those who believed did not receive the Holy Spirit other than by the apostles. Even Paul was baptized after meeting Jesus to receive the Holy Spirit. The jailer in Acts believed and then went through a catechism before being baptized.

So no, the idea of receiving the Holy Spirit through mere belief doesn't hold up.

What's this mean?

Acts 10:44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came down on all those who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers[a] who had come with Peter were astounded because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speaking in other languages and declaring the greatness of God.

Then Peter responded, 47 “Can anyone withhold water and prevent these people from being baptized, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

 

[AlightSeeker]

Some say that "The Great Commission" is addressed to Christians living today, in fact many say it and say also it was addressed to Christian in every age. The same goes for the Sermon on the mount. And for a great many of Jesus' sayings and lessons which were addressed to the apostles, or the disciples, or the Jews of his time, or the crowds of his time. Can you prove it? Why ought anyone take that perspective? And what about "apostolic succession", will you arguments justify or destroy belief in apostolic succession?

These people in the scripture below are the greatest in the kingdom. If it's for jews only, what makes Gentiles equally great in the kingdom? Can they love and hoard money? Can they worry about food and clothing because they're Gentiles? Do they not have to forgive to be forgiven? Can they pray like hypocrites? I dont see what part of this sermon ins't teaching godliness for everyone.

Marthew 5;19 Therefore, whoever nullifies one of the least of these commandments, and teaches [h]others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Laodicean60]

God is the same who called Noah, Abraham, and Moses. It was all for his purpose. But those people all lived differently. Noah was allowed to eat anything but blood. Moses was allowed to eat only clean animals and no blood. Gentiles in acts can eat anything they want except blood. Did God change? Did he change when he sent Jesus? We are commanded to drink his blood. What is that blood?

God and Jesus are and always will be the same. Can God change his mind, yes.