CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

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zoidar

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Clement of Rome:

“Whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?” (Ep. 1, ad Cor. p. 20).

Irenaeus:

“but the Spirit encompasses man within and without, as always abiding, and never leaves him,” (Iren. adv. Haeres. 1. 5, c. 12, p. 450; vide Fragm. Graec. ad Calcem Ireuaei.).

Origen:

“Our soul is enlightened either with the true light, which shall never be put out, which is Christ; or if it has not in it that light which is eternal, without doubt it is enlightened with a temporal and extinguishable light, by him who transforms himself into an angel of light,” (In Jud. homil.1, fol. 177, C; et in Malt. homil. 30, fol. 60, E.).

Athanasius:

“That phrase, as we are one, referring to John 17:11 means nothing else, than that the grace of the Spirit which the disciples had, might be never-failing and irrevocable,” (Contr. Arian. orat. 4, p. 477.).

“He received that the gift residing in him, grace might remain firm; for if men only had received, it was possible that it might be taken away again, which is shown in Adam, for what he received he lost; now that this grace might not he taken away, but be kept safe from men,’ therefore he made this gift his own, and says, that he received power as man, which he always had as God,” (contr. Arian. orat. 4, p. 490.).

Just a few.

The quote by Clements is most likely made up, since it's not in his writings, so it needs no explanation.

I think it's the wrong asumption from the other quotes that the Early Church held the view of eternal security. It's just not possible to draw those conclusions from those quotes, we need to study the whole texts.

It seems to me that you just copy/pasted from other sites that hold this view, and didn't check the texts or the validity of the quotes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I have read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers, and I didn't found anything that led me to believe they held to eternal security. I don't have that much knowledge (yet) of the later ante-nicene-Fathers, so I can't say too much.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Also I just wanted to point out that I’m not Orthodox in case you were wondering.

When I see your screen name I see Berean and it's what I've always thought you were in faith group - although I admit it is sheer supposition.. lol.

When you brought up early church teachings I just assumed you wanted to use them to support your point of view - but it matters not I cant accept them as equal to scripture.

In my study and search for what faith system or denomination I actually believed, I did look into orthodox and Roman Catholic faiths, and cannot accept them as being scriptural - but they justify themselves with early church writings as well..

and when you put tradition on equal footing with scripture, you appear to get something that in the end doesn't resemble scriptures at all..

And the why I cannot accept that, is found in scriptures..
 
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Hazelelponi

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Who canonized and preserved the scriptures? The same church that you distrust? I agree with you about Roman teachings but what about the Orthodox teachings? You’d find they are very different.

Oh please..

there's some Catholic on forums that periodically runs around saying "we wrote the scriptures" it can say anything we want it to say or something along those lines and it's clearly the most arrogant statement I think I've ever heard.

I believe God preserved scriptures for us all, and I don't believe Catholics wrote the Bible, but rather the Holy Spirit through inspired men, preserved for all time through the Hand of God.

Anything and everything else is either in agreement with those scriptures (or at the very least not opposed) or in error.
 
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His student

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So it means if I want to sleep with my neighbour's wife today it is allright

Who said that it's alright to sleep with your neighbor's wife?
There is no need for me repent now while I am still living on this earth, right?
Wrong.

His student said:
"Compared to the disciples, I am special. I have been sealed with Christ's Spirit and He abides in me and is my advocate
."

Well for me I don't feel special. I am just a worthless man in need of a saviour
The disciples were under the old covenant. We are under the New covenant.

The blood of the Savior has been shed. You seem to not understand that there is a New Covenant and that we are no longer under the old.

The disciples were not born again.

They had not been sealed by God's Spirit.

They had not passed from death to life. Unlike us - they could come into condemnation. As Judas.

I am not a worthless man.

I am special. Even angels desire to fully understand what has happened to me.

I am a part of the Body of Christ. I am a child of God.

I am no longer searching for a Savior. I have a Savior.

He is at the right hand of God making intercession constantly for me.

He dwells in me and He will never leave me nor forsake me.

I have been seated with Him in Heaven even now where I rule in the Kingdom of God by faith.
 
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zoidar

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When I see your screen name I see Berean and it's what I've always thought you were in faith group - although I admit it is sheer supposition.. lol.

When you brought up early church teachings I just assumed you wanted to use them to support your point of view - but it matters not I cant accept them as equal to scripture.

In my study and search for what faith system or denomination I actually believed, I did look into orthodox and Roman Catholic faiths, and cannot accept them as being scriptural - but they justify themselves with early church writings as well..

and when you put tradition on equal footing with scripture, you appear to get something that in the end doesn't resemble scriptures at all..

And the why I cannot accept that, is found in scriptures..

No one should put tradition of Church with equal footing with scripture. I believe it's a great tool, to see what the early Christians taught on different subjects. It's not putting their writings ahead of scripture, but using what they say to better understand the meaning of scripture. If my church teaches something that never was taught by the early Christians, the chance I would say is huge that my church got the wrong understanding of that part of scripture.

If you really get to know the Early Church I believe you will find what that most of their teachings is the same as scripture.
 
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His student

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That’s due to Protestant translators ignoring the context. The NLT version actually got it correct. Jesus is talking about branches that are attached to the vine. Notice the definition of the Greek word aírō in reference to something that is attached to something provided below.

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease.

The word they is not in the Greek translation and nothing clearly indicates that it is not The Father. If you would take into consideration what has been said here those who do not abide cannot bear fruit and those that don’t bear fruit are CUT OFF (aírō G142) by The Father. Here’s the Greek interlinear word for word translation of verse 6

John 15:6

6 ἐὰν (if) G1437 Conj μή (not) G3361 Adv τις (anyone) G5100 IPro-NMS μένῃ (abide) G3306 V-PSA-3S ἐν (in) G1722 Prep ἐμοί (me) G1473 PPro-D1S ἐβλήθη (thrown) G906 V-AIP-3S ἔξω (away) G1854 Adv ὡς (as) G5613 Adv τὸ (the) G3588 Art-NNS κλῆμα (branch) G2814 N-NNS καὶ (and) G2532 Conj ἐξηράνθη (dries) G3583 V-AIP-3S καὶ (and) G2532 Conj συνάγουσιν (gather) G4863 V-PIA-3P αὐτὰ (them) G846 PPro-AN3P καὶ (and) G2532 Conj εἰς (into) G1519 Prep τὸ (the) G3588 Art-ANS πῦρ (fire) G4442 N-ANS βάλλουσιν (thrown) G906 V-PIA-3P καὶ (and) G2532 Conj καίεται (burned) G2545 V-PIM/P-3S
I have no idea why you cut and pasted all this stuff for me.
 
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redleghunter

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The quote by Clements is most likely made up, since it's not in his writings, so it needs no explanation.
Or most likely a different translation from the one you have.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, I understand that it is commanded to do good works; I have no problem with that: but if my eternal destiny is sealed then I do not have to worry about it - God doesn't really care how I live - Oh, I know it will make him sad if I live my fun life too much - but I'm not that bad a guy, really - I am as good or better than the average guy. Once I get to heaven, then I can settle things up with God: until then his grace covers my sins. PTL!
Nope.
 
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redleghunter

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"THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS." - Jer. 23:6

Jer. 51:10 The LORD hath brought forth our righteousness: come, and let us declare in Zion the work of the LORD our God.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph. 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Tit. 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

His work, not ours. He is simply carrying out His promise in Jer. 31:33. He would do it. Soon, it is to be said once more, "It is finished", even as He shook the earth once, now again and also Heaven.

While not saved by works, we are rewarded by them:

Rev. 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
It's good to see the Reformed view promoted in the thread. Thanks! Semper Reformanda!
 
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Hazelelponi

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No one should put tradition of Church with equal footing with scripture. I believe it's a great tool, to see what the early Christians taught on different subjects. It's not putting their writings ahead of scripture, but using what they say to better understand the meaning of scripture. If my church teaches something that never was taught by the early Christians, the chance I would say is huge that my church got the wrong understanding of that part of scripture.

If you really get to know the Early Church I believe you will find what that most of their teachings is the same as scripture.

What exists or what I see presented seems to twist scripture on its head.

Just like the absence of security in our salvation. The Bible claims we can have assurance that we are held by the power of God. That the Holy Spirit is our guarantor.. that the work He began in us will be completed..

When we believe the future is certain, we end up with the ability to move mountains.

There are times we desperately need to rest in assurance of our salvation, not have constant condemnation and be told we will lose our salvation 20 times a day and if we happen to die on an off moment we are in hell for unrepented of sin..

that's insane. God is either a God who is sovereign and who has the power to save His people, or he's no God at all..

If I wanted to worship what I could do I would have never become Christian.. but I saw a God in Christianity in whom I could trust and believe in what He could do...
 
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williemac

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John 5:24 (NKJ) " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGEMENT, but HAS PASSED from death into life"
If we can lose this life which is a free gift, and which has been granted apart from works of law, it cannot be lost by way of being judged. Otherwise Jesus lied. Furthermore..Heb.6:4-6 states if one should fall away, it would be impossible to renew the again to repentance. There is no such thing as losing salvation and then getting it back. The debate about repentance is lost in definition. Repentance literally means to change one's mind. It doesn't mean to quit sinning or to turn from sin, unless sin is specifically mentioned within the context where the word is used. In the case of the Jews at Pentecost, they were cut to the heart about having discovered that they rejected and crucified their Messiah. They asked "what shall we do?" The reply was too repent. From what? Their decision about Jesus. That is the context. Then they were advised to be rather baptized in His name "for the remission of sin". Sin is removed by God. Not by the sinner. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), " that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us" We are left in a hybrid state of being, where the sin within our body remains while the new man in us is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). Sin is not attributed to the new man and never can be. It is attributed to the old man (the body of flesh) who has been declared dead, crucified with Christ. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father (1John, 2:1). All passages that refer to the sinner, lost or being judged, refer to the unregenerate..NOT to the one who has received everlasting life. So what does Jesus do with a sinning believer? He chastens them. But a smoking wick He will not snuff out, nor a bended reed will He break. So what then is required, what qualifies a person for grace? Humility. We have mistakenly put faith as the number one requirement. The first requirement is to humble oneself. This reflects the repentance from the original transgression, which first came from Lucifer. It was the pride of life, as John called it (1John 2:16), where he resolved to take on the role of God. But only God can produce life or righteousness. Any attempt on our part to do that, reflects the original transgression. We need to repent from any idea that we can contribute to either from our own resources. That is humility. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive it and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9 has been mistaken for an instruction to the believer. Rather, it is a 'principle' being explained. It is a picture of salvation. Read the next verse. This principle is reinforced in Rom.10:9,10. Sin is not even mentioned there. Faith and confession, products of humility. We don't keep our salvation, our eternal life, any other way than how we acquired it in the first place.
 
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redleghunter

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Yep so if you once belived and followed God's Word yesterday and no longer believe and follow Gods' Word today are you God's Sheep?
But your hypothetical makes it like Jesus will not keep His word: :(

"I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand."
 
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redleghunter

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Until that's been proven, there is no reason to take it seriously.
You don't have to. I am familiar with the New Advent site. It is one of many translations.
 
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zoidar

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What exists or what I see presented seems to twist scripture on its head.

Just like the absence of security in our salvation. The Bible claims we can have assurance that we are held by the power of God. That the Holy Spirit is our guarantor.. that the work He began in us will be completed..

When we believe the future is certain, we end up with the ability to move mountains.

For background, the one thing I did was smoke cigarettes. Back in the day I don't think any religious group saw smoking cigarettes as a sin, just perhaps not the wisest choice. So I smoked cigarettes..it was my 1 rebellion and crutch I think..

I was so addicted that my children used to tell me I'd end up a little old lady with emphysema hooked to an oxygen tank still trying to suck down a cigarette - and I honestly have little doubt they would have been correct had I not been saved.. I was a complete addict. My forays into quitting were multi annual after I was 27, I was just powerless to quit..

after I was saved I believed what scripture said about assurance, I believed it as much as I believed I have carpet in my living room.. and that belief was in my favor when I was led by the Holy Spirit to quit smoking..

I saw quitting as something, not just possible, but already done at some future point... I took that future as an inheritance (for lack of a better words) through Christ and His power and I quit..

It wasn't always easy, I did experience withdrawals and even had a set back (some claim they don't have withdrawals but I did, so I'm sure everyone has different experiences) but if I hadn't believed myself a child of God who had already conquered that at some future point, I don't think I would have had the faith in myself to quit. I'd already spent more than a decade trying on my own..

There are times we desperately need to rest in assurance of our salvation, not have constant condemnation and be told we will lose our salvation 20 times a day and if we happen to die on an off moment we are in hell for unrepented of sin..

that's insane. God is either a God who is sovereign and who has the power to save His people, or he's no God at all..

If I wanted to worship what I could do I would have never become Christian.. but I saw a God in Christianity in whom I could trust and believe in what He could do...

I actually agree to everything you say, with the exception of your view of the early Church. I also believe in assurance, but I believe assurance is to come not from theology, but from knowing Christ personally.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I actually agree to everything you say, with the exception of your view of the early Church. I also believe in assurance, but I believe assurance is to come not from theology, but from knowing Christ personally.

I believe assurance comes from both.. if it wasn't found in theology then belief in it after salvation wouldn't fit - you'd be going off the rails, not following the truth set before us.

But it is found in scriptures, all over scriptures.. so when you experience it then the experience is theologically sound.
 
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royal priest

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John 5:24 (NKJ) " Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGEMENT, but HAS PASSED from death into life"
If we can lose this life which is a free gift, and which has been granted apart from works of law, it cannot be lost by way of being judged. Otherwise Jesus lied. Furthermore..Heb.6:4-6 states if one should fall away, it would be impossible to renew the again to repentance. There is no such thing as losing salvation and then getting it back. The debate about repentance is lost in definition. Repentance literally means to change one's mind. It doesn't mean to quit sinning or to turn from sin, unless sin is specifically mentioned within the context where the word is used. In the case of the Jews at Pentecost, they were cut to the heart about having discovered that they rejected and crucified their Messiah. They asked "what shall we do?" The reply was too repent. From what? Their decision about Jesus. That is the context. Then they were advised to be rather baptized in His name "for the remission of sin". Sin is removed by God. Not by the sinner. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7), " that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us" We are left in a hybrid state of being, where the sin within our body remains while the new man in us is righteous and holy (Eph.4:24). Sin is not attributed to the new man and never can be. It is attributed to the old man (the body of flesh) who has been declared dead, crucified with Christ. If we do sin, we have an advocate with the Father (1John, 2:1). All passages that refer to the sinner, lost or being judged, refer to the unregenerate..NOT to the one who has received everlasting life. So what does Jesus do with a sinning believer? He chastens them. But a smoking wick He will not snuff out, nor a bended reed will He break. So what then is required, what qualifies a person for grace? Humility. We have mistakenly put faith as the number one requirement. The first requirement is to humble oneself. This reflects the repentance from the original transgression, which first came from Lucifer. It was the pride of life, as John called it (1John 2:16), where he resolved to take on the role of God. But only God can produce life or righteousness. Any attempt on our part to do that, reflects the original transgression. We need to repent from any idea that we can contribute to either from our own resources. That is humility. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive it and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1John 1:9 has been mistaken for an instruction to the believer. Rather, it is a 'principle' being explained. It is a picture of salvation. Read the next verse. This principle is reinforced in Rom.10:9,10. Sin is not even mentioned there. Faith and confession, products of humility. We don't keep our salvation, our eternal life, any other way than how we acquired it in the first place.
Thy God reigneth, brother!
 
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royal priest

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Please, sir, what do you mean by "nope" - Do you mean I should live better? Do you mean I won't make it to heaven? Do you mean I have to do stuff to stay saved?
Don't presume on being one of God's elect. We are commanded to make our calling and election sure.
 
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