Can you loose your salvation?

[Greo]

I ask the question can you loose your salvation? Once you become saved, are you always saved or can you become unsaved again? Can you loose your assurance of salvation and end up in hell?

 

[cygnusx1]

I ask the question can you loose your salvation? Once you become saved, are you always saved or can you become unsaved again? Can you loose your assurance of salvation and end up in hell?

Before I answer , everyone who thinks they can lose their salvation , I want to know , can you get it back again .... how many times ?

I have seen many admit they believe that they can lose salvation but none want to answer this most fundemental question of MULTIPLE SALVATIONS.....

Now to be fair I will answer your question , Jesus has been saving people for 2000 years and if we count the Old Testament saints , even longer , and we are assured by Christ himself that he has never lost one who the Father gave him.

 

[holyrokker]

You can't "lose" your salvation.

It's possible to abandon your faith and walk away from Christ - but why would you want to do that?

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Are counting are works for salvation ?


or are we counting Christ work for are salvation!

 

[Codger]

Dear CF,

Church leadership at one time got into the habit of coercing Christians to do their bidding by threatening their salvation as a means of control. So another segment of the Church invented the doctrine of "Eternal Security." One error countermands another error and both are wrong. I think it is an intrinsic part of the character of God to maintain our free will at all times during this life.

The proponents of Eternal Security usually dismiss any particular cases like that of Demos or Judas by saying, "They weren’t really saved in the first place" – an easy out. The truth of the matter is that many people are in and out of their relationship with God during their lifetimes. And they can always come back with one exception – if they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. When they get to this point they are apostate and have no desire to come back. Only people who know God personally can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example, the fallen angels knew God and his character intimately and became apostate turning their backs on the God of love. They cannot be redeemed because they also have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Codger

 

[frumanchu]

Church leadership at one time got into the habit of coercing Christians to do their bidding by threatening their salvation as a means of control. So another segment of the Church invented the doctrine of "Eternal Security." One error countermands another error and both are wrong. I think it is an intrinsic part of the character of God to maintain our free will at all times during this life.

Why stop there? If our free will is so precious, should not we retain it in Heaven?

Do you think it is possible to sin in Heaven? If not, why not?

The proponents of Eternal Security usually dismiss any particular cases like that of Demos or Judas by saying, "They weren’t really saved in the first place" – an easy out.

And a Scriptural one (1 John 2:19)

The truth of the matter is that many people are in and out of their relationship with God during their lifetimes.

Our sanctification is an ongoing process, with peaks and valleys. Apparently though you take the approach of the guy walking in Footprints (gah...I can't believe I cited Footprints as an example! )

Only people who know God personally can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example, the fallen angels knew God and his character intimately and became apostate turning their backs on the God of love. They cannot be redeemed because they also have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Do you have any Scripture to support this view?

 

[Van]

Frumanchu, when you are right, you are right! I only have one hair to split with your above post, I think blasepheming the Holy Spirit is the act of rejecting the gospel. But other than that fine distinction, I say Amen.

 

[St. Worm2]

Dear CF,

Church leadership at one time got into the habit of coercing Christians to do their bidding by threatening their salvation as a means of control. So another segment of the Church invented the doctrine of "Eternal Security." One error countermands another error and both are wrong. I think it is an intrinsic part of the character of God to maintain our free will at all times during this life.

The proponents of Eternal Security usually dismiss any particular cases like that of Demos or Judas by saying, "They weren’t really saved in the first place" – an easy out. The truth of the matter is that many people are in and out of their relationship with God during their lifetimes. And they can always come back with one exception – if they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. When they get to this point they are apostate and have no desire to come back. Only people who know God personally can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example, the fallen angels knew God and his character intimately and became apostate turning their backs on the God of love. They cannot be redeemed because they also have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Codger

Sorry Codger, but I have to agree with Frumanchu. And I would also like to add and/or ask a couple of other things.

First, you wrote, "Church leadership at one time got into the habit of coercing Christians to do their bidding by threatening their salvation as a means of control. So another segment of the Church invented the doctrine of "Eternal Security."

You believe the Reformers "invented" the doctrine of "Eternal Security" in response to a practice of the Medieval Catholic Church? Who told you that? And what evidence did they have to back up such a statement?

Then you wrote: "The proponents of Eternal Security usually dismiss any particular cases like that of Demos or Judas by saying, "They weren’t really saved in the first place" – an easy out." Again, agreeing with Frumanchu (and you .. ), the Bible itself does make this "easy":

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us." (1 John 2:19)


"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'" (Matthew 7:21-23)

You continue: "The truth of the matter is that many people are in and out of their relationship with God during their lifetimes. And they can always come back with one exception – if they have blasphemed the Holy Spirit. "


Now there is one passage, perhaps the most difficult for those of us who hold to the teaching of the Perseverance of the Saints, that seems to indicate that you can lose your salvation. That would be Hebrews 6:4-6. Notice, however, what this passage has to say about being renewed once one has fallen (in bold below). Even my senior pastor, who believes (as you do) that salvation can be lost, also says that, once you've lost it, you aren't going to be getting it back. Salvation is not like plucking petals from a daisy and saying, "I love God, I love Him not, I love God, I love Him not............" (or perhaps, "He loves me, He loves me not..........." .. )

"In the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6)

So, if this passage is, indeed, saying that the elect can lose their salvation, then it is also unambiguously stating that they won't be getting it back any time soon as well, yes? You continue:

"Only people who know God personally can blaspheme the Holy Spirit." So you believe that those wretches (the Pharisees who were talking to Jesus in Matthew 12:24) had a personal relationship with God? Were these not the same folks He called the 'children of the Devil' in John 8:44? Finally, you wrote:

"Fallen angels ... cannot be redeemed because they also have blasphemed the Holy Spirit" Along with Frumanchu, I am wondering where you heard this and what Biblical evidence you have to substantiate it? I have none for my alternative view, but had always heard that "fallen angels" are unredeemable because they don't have a "Redeemer"!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Inspector Gadget]

I ask the question can you loose your salvation? Once you become saved, are you always saved or can you become unsaved again? Can you loose your assurance of salvation and end up in hell?

Wel,l once you experience your Ephesians 2:8 salvation event.... no you cannot "lose" it. But you don't "keep" it either. It is an event like your birthday, not a possession. You don't lose or keep your last birthday. It is a past experienced event.

There is a salvation event which is yet to come for all Christians. Unless one remains faithful, you can fall short of it.

But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13).



For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed (Romans 13:12)



If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15).



you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5).



Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12).



Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. (2 Tim 2:10).



The Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18).



so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:28).



who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time…. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls. The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation… Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. (1 Peter 1:5-2:2)



And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. (Rev 12:10)

 

[Van]

I think the Bible presents three concepts, positional sanctification, where we are placed into Christ spiritually by spiritual baptism performed by the Holy Spirit; process sanctification during our subsequent walk with our Lord, striving to stay in the center of His will, and failing every day as we are conformed to the image of Christ; and ultimate sancitification where in glorified physical bodies we meet Christ in the air.

But I have not heard the argument from the loss of salvation side concerning this verse
"who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time…."

I understand this to say God protects our born again faith such that we can never lose it and therefore will endure to the end and obtain the predestined inheritance of eternal life. But how does the other side deal with it?

 

[St. Worm2]

Wel,l once you experience your Ephesians 2:8 salvation event.... no you cannot "lose" it. But you don't "keep" it either. It is an event like your birthday, not a possession. You don't lose or keep your last birthday. It is a past experienced event.

There is a salvation event which is yet to come for all Christians. Unless one remains faithful, you can fall short of it.

But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13).

I'm not quite following you Gadget, are you saying that once justified (i.e. what you called the Ephesians 2:8 "event") a person is now required to do something to keep his/her salvation, not do anything? I'm not quite sure of your 'birthday' example either. I turned 48 on September 2nd this year and I am still 48 today. When I turn 49, I will never lose the fact that I was 48 years old, right?

Also, I took out all but your first Scripture reference as I could not find a unified thought among them. Instead, they seemed to talk about all kinds of different aspects of salvation. Perhaps if I understood what you are trying to say in your post's opening, they would make more sense.(?)

Thanks!

Yours and His,
David

 

[Bulldog]

You can't "lose" your salvation.

It's possible to abandon your faith and walk away from Christ - but why would you want to do that?

At what point are we considered "saved"? (having salvation?)

 

[Codger]

Dear Frumanchu,

Original Post

Church leadership at one time got into the habit of coercing Christians to do their bidding by threatening their salvation as a means of control. So another segment of the Church invented the doctrine of "Eternal Security." One error countermands another error and both are wrong. I think it is an intrinsic part of the character of God to maintain our free will at all times during this life.

Response: Why stop there? If our free will is so precious, should not we retain it in Heaven?

Do you think it is possible to sin in Heaven? If not, why not?

Reply: I think we will always have a free will. But the believers in Gods Eternal City will have seen both good and evil and have chosen God or good. I doubt that anyone would ever rebel like Lucifer did. Isn’t this the reason for God’s plan of redemption anyway?

Original Post

Only people who know God personally can blaspheme the Holy Spirit. For example, the fallen angels knew God and his character intimately and became apostate turning their backs on the God of love. They cannot be redeemed because they also have blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

Response: Do you have any Scripture to support this view?

Reply: How then would you explain blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? How do you differentiate this from backsliding for example?

How do you fit this scripture into your thinking?

Matthew 12:31 (NASB)

"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.

God carried out his plan of redemption covertly. Not many really could see or understand what was going on – not even the disciples understood. But on the day of Pentecost Peter stood up in the Temple and announced to the world that God had completed his work and now all may come for forgiveness and mercy. And many of the priests were obedient to the faith. A lot of the people who were saved that day were former adversaries of Jesus and the disciples. They had opposed the will of God during the hidden years but now they were repenting and turning to the Lord and had come out of their ignorance. True blasphemy involves the true knowledge of God. That is the difference.

Codger

 

[Beoga]

Reply: I think we will always have a free will. But the believers in Gods Eternal City will have seen both good and evil and have chosen God or good. I doubt that anyone would ever rebel like Lucifer did. Isn’t this the reason for God’s plan of redemption anyway?

so you are saying that there is the possiblity to sin in Heaven? Is Heaven just another Garden of Eden?

 

[Codger]

Dear Littleapoligist,

You stated:
"so you are saying that there is the possiblity to sin in Heaven? Is Heaven just another Garden of Eden?"

Reply:
That is the whole problem of creating spiritual beings. It is the character of God that we all have a free will - always. So why is it so hard to believe that it is possible to sin (that is to violate Gods character of holiness, love, and goodness) in heaven? Lucifer did. How many angels did also? We don't know how many billions or trillions of them God created, nor do we know when. All we are told is that a third of them fell. They deliberately turned against God to the dark side and decided to do their own thing. So the ratio is one out of every three angels sinned in heaven. A very large number!


So if Lucifer and a third of the angels fell in Heaven - why is it so difficult to believe that any spiritual being can sin in heaven? The angels also had a free will. You can sin in heaven, but God has allowed us humans to see what the dark side is really like here on earth. God's people here on earth are God's people because they willed to be so. They accepted the Covenant of redemption that God has created for "whosoever will." It is not likely that anyone in the perfection of heaven would ever choose the dark side (evil) having seen it first hand and up close. Those angels and people through the ages who chose the dark side will be eternally separated. This theme runs all through the Bible. Sheep and Goats, wheat and tares.

Codger

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

God gives us a new Heart ...body soul and spirit when we meat face to face 1 thes 5:23, eph 5:27

 

[frumanchu]

Reply: I think we will always have a free will. But the believers in Gods Eternal City will have seen both good and evil and have chosen God or good. I doubt that anyone would ever rebel like Lucifer did. Isn’t this the reason for God’s plan of redemption anyway?

So you think that men in eternity will retain the ability to reject God at any time but that it's just "doubtful" that anyone would rebel like Lucifer did?

Reply: How then would you explain blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? How do you differentiate this from backsliding for example? How do you fit this scripture into your thinking?

This definition from the New Geneva Study Bible sums it up nicely:

For various forms of blasphemy, see 2:7; Ex. 22:28; Lev. 24:10–16; Ezek. 35:12, 13; John 10:33–36; Acts 6:11. The unforgivable blasphemy specified here is the act of deliberately associating the power and the work of Jesus, who is full of the Holy Spirit, with the work of Satan. This is to equate supreme spiritual good with supreme spiritual evil, hardening one’s heart in a way that makes repentance, and therefore forgiveness, impossible.

New Geneva study Bible. 1997, c1995 (electronic ed.) (Mk 3:29). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.



I'd be happy to post further explanation if you'd like.

God carried out his plan of redemption covertly. Not many really could see or understand what was going on – not even the disciples understood. But on the day of Pentecost Peter stood up in the Temple and announced to the world that God had completed his work and now all may come for forgiveness and mercy. And many of the priests were obedient to the faith. A lot of the people who were saved that day were former adversaries of Jesus and the disciples. They had opposed the will of God during the hidden years but now they were repenting and turning to the Lord and had come out of their ignorance. True blasphemy involves the true knowledge of God. That is the difference.

You've now moved from "knowing God personally" to having a "true knowledge of God." Those are two distinct things.

 

[Van]

[blaspheming the Holy Spirit means]"...hardening one’s heart in a way that makes repentance, and therefore forgiveness, impossible.

No more hair to split, you score 100% in my dupious book.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Wel,l once you experience your Ephesians 2:8 salvation event.... no you cannot "lose" it. But you don't "keep" it either. It is an event like your birthday, not a possession. You don't lose or keep your last birthday. It is a past experienced event.

There is a salvation event which is yet to come for all Christians. Unless one remains faithful, you can fall short of it.

But he who endures to the end will be saved. (Matthew 24:13).

vs 14 describes this as the tribulation /kingdom then the end shall come which this is Jewish promises not the bride promise

Gospel of the kingdom who is promised this...Jews

the Church has a beter promise hebrews 11:40

For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed (Romans 13:12)



If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. (1 Cor 3:15).



you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor 5:5).



Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (Php 2:12).



Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain salvation in Christ Jesus with its eternal glory. (2 Tim 2:10).



The Lord will rescue me from every evil and save me for his heavenly kingdom. To him be the glory for ever and ever. Amen. (2 Tim 4:18).



so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (Heb 9:28).



who by God's power are guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time…. As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls. The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation… Like newborn babes, long for the pure spiritual milk, that by it you may grow up to salvation. (1 Peter 1:5-2:2)



And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. (Rev 12:10)

another person that does not know the three tenses of salvation..

Past tense salvation...intial salvation

present tense salvation ...free choice to live up to what God says in heaven about you eph 1,if not 1 john 1:8-10 if not hebrew 12:3-11

Future salvation 1 thes 5:23, eph 5:25-27

 

[william jay schroeder]

A gift given can be given back can it not. hebrews 6:4 its a very tough debate. but like i said its a gift from God so if you choose to give it back you are lost forever. I perfer to let God deal with this issue. only he knows the heart of man.