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Can you find the Church?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Fidelibus, May 28, 2021.

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  1. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    oh! oh! I know the answer to that one. It is because the Pope has told us so.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    You know, I was starting to write a longer reply explaining, again, the point you don't seem to get. But having said it several different times already and in different ways, I wonder how else to correct your misunderstanding and get you to see that Sola Scriptura is about the authority of God's word, not a a method by which everyone who reads the Bible is guaranteed to come up with the same interpretation of it.
     
  3. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    It is akin to Sola Catechisma in the Catholic Church. How many varieties of Catholic thought have we encountered here at CF, especially on such significant doctrines as Purgatory?
     
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  4. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Hey bbbbbbb instead of posting your anti-Catholic sarcasm, I'd like to remind you that I am still waiting for the bible verse where you said on post # 326:

    That we are supposed to take it too.......

    Again, book, chapter, and verse where it says this please.

    Along with what you said on post #329:

    So again I ask, as an adherent of the belief in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, (the Bible alone) could you please show where it says this in the Bible? Book, Chapter and verse please.

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  5. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Nope, this shows just how unlearned you really are in regards to The Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    From Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin:

    "The Church recognizes that individuals can have difficulties accepting non-definitive Church teaching and that, in some cases, they may find themselves unable to accept them. This situation is addressed—with specific application to theologians—in a 1990 instruction from the CDF known as Donum Veritatis, which states:

    "Such a disagreement could not be justified if it were based solely upon the fact that the validity of the given teaching is not evident or upon the opinion that the opposite position would be the more probable. Nor, furthermore, would the judgment of the subjective conscience of the theologian justify it because conscience does not constitute an autonomous and exclusive authority for deciding the truth of a doctrine."

    In any case there should never be a diminishment of that fundamental openness loyally to accept the teaching of the Magisterium as is fitting for every believer by reason of the obedience of faith. The theologian will strive then to understand this teaching in its contents, arguments, and purposes. This will mean an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him (28-29).

    Donum Veritatis further states:

    "It can also happen that at the conclusion of a serious study, undertaken with the desire to heed the Magisterium’s teaching without hesitation, the theologian’s difficulty remains because the arguments to the contrary seem more persuasive to him. Faced with a proposition to which he feels he cannot give his intellectual assent, the theologian nevertheless has the duty to remain open to a deeper examination of the question (31)."

    Of course, having a private disagreement does not entail a right to publicly oppose Church teaching. Fortunately, those experiencing such difficulties can have the consolation that the Holy Spirit is guiding the Church “into all the truth” (John 16:13). For a loyal spirit, animated by love for the Church, such a situation can certainly prove a difficult trial. It can be a call to suffer for the truth, in silence and prayer, but with the certainty that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail (31)."

    Have a Blessed day!
     
  6. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. Let me run this question by my Spiritual Adviser, a ninety year old Priest and Theologian that resides at a Benedictine Abby and Seminary near my home, and I'll get back to you.

    Have a Blessed Day
     
  7. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    That is your prerogative.

    However, how about the part where I asked, "Did Jesus teach Sola Scriptura?"

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  8. Placemat

    Placemat Member

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    Sigh.....sigh.....sigh......

    I disagree - with good reason.

    Unfortunately for you, I see you are still struggling with reading comprehension if that description is what you have derived from my posts, either that or you just have a penchant for labelling.

    You are limited by your own understanding of what you believe sola scriptura is, as Albion has attempted various times to point out to you, and it is to the point of becoming almost painful to watch.

    I was being kind, why give you any more ammunition to continue to embarrass yourself with by your distorted understanding.

    Oh, but I ‘answered’ your question, you just didn’t like answer. Sound familiar? Not deflecting at all, as you never answered the question where Catholics are supposed to take this issue too when their church has proven unreliable, deceitful and very UN-Apostolistic when dealing with this issue.

    Must have been disappointed then!

    Except He didn’t specify His Church as being “The Catholic Church!” – so no, you’re not sticking with He said at all, you’re sticking to what the Catholic church self proclaims about itself. Big difference!

    Yes, and I’ve made sure that it is WHITE, to show that I’m the head honcho!

    As I stated in my previous post, I really do trust Him to lead me to where He wants me to be. I don’t put my faith and trust in men, but in HIM.

    As a non-Catholic Christian, and as I've already stated, I really do trust Him to lead me to where He wants me to be. I don’t put my faith and trust in men, but in HIM. You can take it up with Him, when and if you do see Him.


    Well thank you. Now I'll be able to sleep at night.
     
  9. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, thanks! :cool:

    Nope, once again, just calling it for what it is.

    So what do 'you' mean by sola scriptura? That’s really the key here. What do you mean by that word? Before one can believe in a doctrine, they would need a clear explanation of what the doctrine actually entails. Some protestant apologists say sola scriptura means the scripture is the believers sole, infallible rule of faith. But this definition is just too ambiguous. Is it sufficient for a doctrine merely to not contradict scripture? Or do you and Albion believe that of which says Christian doctrine must be found explicitly in scripture and that this doctrine and only this doctrine must be affirmed as revelation of the Christian faith?

    There are some Protestants that claim the Bible, nothing more, nothing less, and nothing else is all that is necessary for faith and practice. Then there are Protestant definitions that parallels to 1646 Westminster Confession of Faith believing Sola scriptura means that only scripture because it is God’s inspired word is our inerrant, sufficient and final authority for the church. All things necessary for salvation and for living the Christian life in obedience to God and for his glory are given to us in the scriptures. So PM, why don't you explain to us what you believe and understand sola scriptura is, and maybe Albion could do the same, and let's see if what you post aligns with what Albion believes and understands it to mean?

    As for my self, I'd have to ask, and if it's not to painful, where does the Bible claim that all Christian doctrine is found in the Bible, which is the only infallible source for such doctrine? So basically where does the Bible teach sola scriptura? If you are going to try and convince anyone in this doctrine, then they surely going to believe the Bible teaches this doctrine. If it doesn’t, well, then that’s a nonstarter for believing in this doctrine.

    Ha-ha.... sure you were.

    Back to the old anti-Catholic play book again, huh? Go figure

    So if He wasn't talking about the Catholic Church, are you suggesting He may have been talking about one of the thousand of different splinter churches that came about due to the reformation fifteen hundred years later? Or maybe the one you just so happen to be affiliated with this time around? :cool:

    Of course you did, I would have expected no less!

    As do Catholics, for we believe 100% what it says in Chronicles 5:20, Psalm 4:5, Psalm 9:10, Psalm 22:4 – 5, Proverbs 16:20, Proverbs 28:25-26, Proverbs 29:25, Isaiah12:2, Isaiah 26:3-4, Jeremiah 5,7, Jeremiah 39:18, Daniel 6:23, and Proverbs 3:5 . I could show more if you'd like.

    Ahhh... I seen it the first time.
    As a Catholic Christian, I have to ask, by who's or what authority would you doubt I won't see Him?

    Happy I could help!

    Have a Blessed Evening!
     
  10. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Yes, Jesus often cited Scripture as being authoritative and referred to it when being questioned by others. :)
     
  11. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Apparently the other 4 patriarchs disagreed since they excommunicated the bishop of Rome and all of them adopted the name Orthodox Catholic Church. So 4 of the 5 head bishops of the Catholic Church rejected Rome’s claim to supreme executive authority leaving only the bishop of Rome all alone in his claim. It’s definitely something to think about. Since the church was governed by ecumenical council can one member excommunicate all the others or can all the others excommunicate one member? In a council setting the majority rules not the minority and it also raises the question is it more likely that all but one bishop fell to corruption or that one bishop fell to corrupt and all the rest refused to go along with it?
     
  12. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Jesus cited Scripture, the Old Testament, but the New Testament was not yet determind, do you not agree?

    However Albion, that's not what the question asked. The question was..... Did Jesus teach Sola Scriptura? Could you show from the Bible alone where Jesus command or taught the Apostles or anyone to follow Sola Scriptura?

    A couple of other observations/questions that maybe you could address.

    When Jesus told the Apostles to communicate the faith, the truths that must be believed in order to be saved, would you agree with He did not say..., “Take your Bible, go forth and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

    Would you also agree Jesus made no reference to the Holy Bible because in those days, there was no Holy Bible as we know it today?

    Is there anywhere in the Bible showing Jesus writing Scripture?

    Is there anywhere in the Bible where Jesus commanded His Apostles to write Bibles?

    And finally, could you show in the Bible where Jesus said to anyone to write Bibles, and scatter them all over the earth and to let every man read it and interpret it for himself in accordance to His teachings? For this is the basic belief of Protestantism, is it not?

    Sorry about peppering you with so many questions, but I feel they are questions of Sola Scriptura that should be addressed, from an adherent or adherent's of Sola Scriptura.

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  13. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Could you cite the source of your information so I could relay it to my spiritual advisor when I see him?

    Thanks, and Have a Blessed Day!
     
  14. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    But what's your point? Yes, Jesus obviously valued Scripture, and I'm sure that you consider the books that were canonized by the church to be Holy Scripture.

    But I do not have to play along with any verbal tricks when answering the question. I can recognize when the attempt is being made to redefine Sola Scriptura in order to denounce it.

    I have indeed read and considered those questions, but none of them seem actually to address the matter of the authority of divine revelation. Maybe you want to follow-up?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2021
  15. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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  16. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    My point is, yes Jesus valued and cited Scripture, the Old Testament Scripture, for the New Testament had yet to be written. And yes, I do consider the books of the bible, Old Testament as well as the New Testament combined together by the Church as the Bible.... Holy Scripture. That my friend, was over three hundred years after Christ's Ascension. So we know for sure Jesus was not citing the same Bible as a whole that we have today. And what Church do you believe it to be that canonized and compiled these writings to give us the Bible we have today?

    Verbal tricks? There is no verbal trick question! All I did was ask a Sola Scripturist such as yourself, "Did Jesus teach Sola Scriptura?" If you answer yes, all I ask is to show me using the Bible alone, where Jesus taught that the Scripture alone is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, and all the truth we need to find the can be found within the pages of Scripture alone. (The Bible) And if He did not, all you have to say is He did not! You see, no trick verbal questions.

    I am not trying to redefine anything. I'm just asking, if Jesus taught Sola Scriptura, show from the Bible where He, or any writers of Scripture show that He taught and believed in Sola Scriptura! I myself say that He did not, and that you will not be able cite a Book, Chapter or verse saying He did. So....... prove me wrong!

    As a Protestant, how do you know whether you’re assenting to divine revelation or to mere human opinion about divine revelation? Also, how do you think/believe divine revelation, which was given to mankind thousands of years ago in the OT and by Jesus in the NT, handed on from generation to generation? And by who's authority do you believe it?

    Well, was really looking forward to you answering them. If not...... Oh well.

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Even if we were to entertain that rather unusual theory--that Christ only considered the verses in Scripture that he referred to personally to be, in fact, Scripture--and also that the Church didn't have anything to do with canonizing Scripture, or if it did, it was mistaken...

    it doesn't seem to do anything to make any man-made alternatives be Scripture's equal or superior to Scripture.

    But I must also say that I am surprised to read you apparently writing off both Scripture (or some of it) and the Church's role in identifying which writings are Scripture.

    IMO, you cannot really have it both ways in this discussion.
     
  18. Placemat

    Placemat Member

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    The Westminster Confession of Faith - scripture final authority for the the church is something I could agree with.

    “The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man’s salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.” —Westminster Confession of Faith

    You're so funny........sigh....I'm not trying to convince anyone about this doctrine.....you're shadow boxing with yourself...derailing your own thread, perhaps in an attempt to deflect from actually answering my original question from zonkers ago?

    Expecting an honest answer to a serious question and not getting one, does not equate to being "anti-Catholic". Perhaps you can ask your 'spiritual advisor' to help you out - what happens when Catholics take an issue to the Catholic church and the "Church" doesn't do anything about it, except prove itself to be unreliable, untrustworthy and corrupt, where should they turn too, what church should they take it too???


    Sure, why not!?

    >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Placemat:As I stated in my previous post, I really do trust Him to lead me to where He wants me to be. I don’t put my faith and trust in men, but in HIM.

    These bible verses all pertain to having/putting trust in God.
    These prayers below, based on the developed teaching of men from the Catholic church show where Catholics are taught to put their faith and trust and it's NOT in Him.

    Most Holy Virgin Mary, Help of Christians,
    how sweet it is to come to your feet
    imploring your perpetual help.
    If earthly mothers cease not to remember their children,
    how can you, the most loving of all mothers forget me?
    Grant then to me, I implore you,
    your perpetual help in all my necessities,
    in every sorrow, and especially in all my temptations.
    I ask for your unceasing help for all who are now suffering.
    Help the weak, cure the sick, convert sinners.

    Grant through your intercessions many vocations to the religious life.
    Obtain for us, O Mary, Help of Christians,
    that having invoked you on earth we may love and eternally thank you in heaven.


    ……………………….

    Remember, O most gracious Virgin Mary, that never was it known that anyone who fled to thy protection, implored thy help, or sought thine intercession was left unaided.

    Inspired by this confidence, I fly unto thee, O Virgin of virgins, my mother; to thee do I come, before thee I stand, sinful and sorrowful. O Mother of the Word Incarnate, despise not my petitions, but in thy mercy hear and answer me.


    …………………….

    O Mary, Virgin most powerful and Mother of mercy, Queen of Heaven and Refuge of sinners, we consecrate ourselves to thine Immaculate Heart.

    We consecrate to thee our very being and our whole life; all that we have, all that we love, all that we are. To thee we give our bodies, our hearts and our souls; to thee we give our homes, our families, our country.

    We desire that all that is in us and around us may belong to thee, and may share in the benefits of thy motherly benediction. And that this act of consecration may be truly efficacious and lasting, we renew this day at thy feet the promises of our Baptism and our first Holy Communion.

    We pledge ourselves to profess courageously and at all times the truths of our holy Faith, and to live as befits Catholics who are duly submissive to all the directions of the Pope and the Bishops in communion with him.

    We pledge ourselves to keep the commandments of God and His Church, in particular to keep holy the Lord's Day.


    We likewise pledge ourselves to make the consoling practices of the Christian religion, and above all, Holy Communion, an integral part of our lives, in so far as we shall be able so to do.

    Finally, we promise thee, O glorious Mother of God and loving Mother of men, to devote ourselves whole-heartedly to the service of thy blessed cult, in order to hasten and assure, through the sovereignty of thine Immaculate Heart, the coming of the kingdom of the Sacred Heart of thine adorable Son, in our own hearts and in those of all men, in our country and in all the world, as in heaven. so on earth. Amen.


    …………………………..
     
  19. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Interesting PM, So you agree with something other than the Bible, the writings of fallible men? The reason I find it interesting, is because back on post #448 you professed the complete opposite!!

    Hmmmm....

    Sigh??? Hmmm....okay, but I don't find humor in them at all, for they are all valid points. Just trying to know the premise of what you consider as the final authority in your beliefs. If it is the Bible, show where Jesus or any other writer of Sacred Scripture say's that the Bible is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, and that all the truths we need to know, can be found within the pages of the bible. Any Book, Chapter or verse would suffice. Good Luck! ;) And please, spare me posting 2 Timothy 3:16–17 as proof, It's been debunked more times than I can count proving the bible alone being sufficient as a sole rule of faith!

    Unfortunately, my spiritual advisor has been diagnosed with Cancer and has been laid up in the infirmary at the Abby. But knowing Fr. A.......e the way I do, and if I were to show him my response/answer to your question, pretty sure he would say, "that pretty much say's/answers it all in a nut shell." Funny thing is PM, Swag365' answer on the Catholic questions thread, and mine pretty much mirrored each other answering your question. Like I said before many times, your inquiry was answerd, but you were expecting different results in your "gotcha question" to fuel your anti-Catholic talking points. Oh Well!
    (p.s. could you please include Father in your daily prayers? I would appreciate it. thanks!)

    Thank you PM, that is probably the most "Protestant" answer I have ever heard coming from a Protestant! Unfortunately, you have a huge problem believing this, for it would be impossible. The problem being, none of these Protestant churches or the numerous splinter churches that followed existed before the reformation. We are talking a fifteen hundred year difference here my friend! Sorry!

    Of course they do! Us Catholics, along with the Catholic Church believe in them 100%. Why do you think I posted them?

    Wow! you sure had me fooled. I thought by a couple of your previous posts you just may have an inkling of what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches her members. That just got tossed into the trash heap like a dirty diaper with this most unfortunate and unlearned statement of yours.
    FYI, These prayers were written hundred of years ago by Saints, Monks,, Church Theologians, ect. and in no way reflect official teachings of the Catholic Church. For example, the first prayer you posted was composed by St. John Bosco, a holy Italian priest of the 19th century. He had a deep spiritual life especially characterized by his love of the Virgin Mary. He spent great amounts of time in prayer each day and related to others several visions he had.

    One of them included the Blessed Mother under the title of “Mary, Help of Christians.” The name of the prayer you posted, but conveniently left out along with the author. Nice job PM!

    The prayer St. John Bosco composed, expresses this spiritual reality, invoking the heavenly aid of our Mother during our time of need. In regards to your statements where you claim the Catholic Church teaches her members we are to put our trust and faith some where other than God, I'd like to propose a challenge to you similar to the challenge 'Swag365' did on the "Got Catholic Questions" thread pg #16. (which you have failed to accept I may add. No wait, what did you tell him? Oh yeah.... "hold that thought") Well I think he is still on hold PM! ;)

    Now PM, my challenge to you is...., show any official Catholic Church teaching, were the Church commands her members to worship, trust, and put their faith somewhere, or in someone other than God. Now, like what Swag365 said, If you can do this, I will leave the Catholic Church, and convert to any Protestant church of your choosing. Now........ if you cannot PM, do you have the sand and would you admit you cannot, and retract your statement saying otherwise? The ball is in your court! :cool:

    You may want to start with the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and go to Paragraphs 2096-2097. Then check out Canon Law 1255 of the 1918 Codex. Good Luck!

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  20. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    What's so unusual? What other Scripture verses other than the O.T text do you believe Jesus was refurring too that the people of that time would understand and be familiar with?

    Could you be a bit more defined?

    I don't get why you are so......... "surprised!" I was pointing out like I said above, people living in the time Jesus walked the earth did not have the writings of the N.T. to refure too, for they had yet to be compiled.

    Sure..... you can have your personal opinion about this discussion all you want, (dosen't make them absolute though) however the questions remains. Did Jesus teach sola scriptura? If so, where in Scripture does it show it? Along with, what Church do you believe it to be that canonized and compiled the Sacred writings to give us the Bible we have today?

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
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