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Can you find the Church?

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by Fidelibus, May 28, 2021.

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  1. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    I’m sorry I thought you might be familiar with the word. Here ya go here’s the definition of punishment.

    Punishment
    • The imposition of a penalty or deprivation for wrongdoing: the swift punishment of all offenders.
    • A penalty imposed for wrongdoing: "The severity of the punishment must ... be in keeping with the kind of obligation which has been violated" (Simone Weil).
    • Rough treatment or use: These old skis have taken a lot of punishment over the years.
     
  2. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    the Catechism YOU quoted defines THE TERM "temporal punishment" as:
    On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory.

    This is clearly not a penalty. Penalty is YOUR word.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  3. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    you can quote all the online definitions you want, PENALTY is your word.

    If you wanted to be fair, use the definition the CCC provides in the same paragraph you quoted.
     
  4. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    And the next sentence?

    On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the 'temporal punishment' of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.

    The very next sentence just defined the purification as a punishment.
     
  5. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    A punishment is a penalty. I’m sorry I wasn’t looking right at the catechism when I made that statement I was paraphrasing so if I used the word penalty instead of punishment it doesn’t make any difference at all because the very definition of the word punishment that is used in the catechism is a penalty. You’ve already been proven wrong so just stop with the nonsense already. You asked for proof and I provided it, if you don’t like it you can take it up with your church.
     
  6. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    yes, it is referring to eternal punishment and temporal punishment as defined in the same paragraph
     
  7. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    That Catechism entry also used the word punishment to describe the consequence of the need for purification.

    Perhaps the misunderstanding comes from the reference to "two punishments" or from the reference to purification for "temporal punishment."

    Temporal punishment is punishment that doesn't last forever (Purgatory). The other is eternal punishment (Hell). But both are places of punishment.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  8. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    ok
    what Catechism were you looking at?
    when you claim to be state doctrine, it is normally a good idea not to paraphrase. Otherwise you get in the trouble you did.
    you are equating the phrase "temporal punishment" to penalty. This is clearly not.correct becasue in the same paragraph, the Catechism defines what temporal punishment is, and it ain't penalty.
    your opinion
    you provided no congruent argument for saying the Church's doctrine says purgatory is a penalty
     
  9. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    keep up, I omitted nothing. We are working with what @BNR32FAN quoted
     
  10. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    What temporal punishment?
     
  11. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    Yes, your post 423 did omit part of it.

    That omission caused both "BNR" and me to complete the Catechism's statement by quoting--in posts 425 and 428 respectively--the omitted wording immediately following which referred to punishment. See the bolded sections in those posts. His post 425, in fact, reiterated the earlier post that included the part about punishment.

    If it is the case that "We are working with what @BNR32FAN quoted," it's the entire section from the Catechism.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  12. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    So purgatory is a punishment but not a penalty? I guess that’s what you get when you ignore the dictionary and make up your own definitions for words that have already been defined for centuries. See the thing is tho, you weren’t around in 1439AD to provide your definition of the word punishment to the council, so I think we’ll have to assume that they intended the same definition that the rest of the world uses instead of your’s since your definition didn’t exist yet.
     
  13. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    the CCC states exactly what Purgatory is: "On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. "

    I'm using the definition found in the same paragraph YOU quoted.
    you weren't around either. So why dont we agree to use the explanation given in the CCC.
     
  14. concretecamper

    concretecamper Member of His Church

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    my post was to define "temporal punishment".

    Next you'll accuse me of omitting other parts of the CCC :doh:

    You can do better than this.
     
  15. Placemat

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    Of course you do.

    It sure does – and it was appropriate at the time.

    Funnier still was the actual claim you made!

    .......oh the irony....

    Sigh....yes...ha-ha..say's me.....

    Put in a little effort and open your bible and I’m sure if you search hard enough you can find it nestled in there right beside where He calls the church, verbatim, the ‘Catholic Church’ with sole authority to interpret scripture and the same Authority and power that the Apostles had to settle issues/disputes back then - disputes such as the handling of the sexual abuse by priests - when it is brought to their attention – yep, just like the Apostles would have done.

    Then why the question that you so desperately wanted an answer too:

    "Now that I've answered your question, let me ask you a couple. In Matt. 18:15-17 it say's.....
    15 “If your brother* sins [against you], go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector."

    The question being........Jesus is saying we are to take these scenarios to "the church." (singular) What "Church" do you believe Him to be speaking of?

    Just as fallible/non absolute as the Catholic church’s interpretations that have no authority over me or anyone else for that matter and that could be in error.

    I’m awaiting delivery from Amazon of my little red slippers as we post!

    Any church that teaches and preaches Christ Jesus and His unadulterated, uncontaminated gospel message is where He wants me to be and as a born again, non-Catholic Christian, I really do trust Him to lead me to where He wants me to be.

    As an adherent of HIS, there’s nothing to re-think about what I said.

    I’ve already stated that I would take any issue to the church that I would be attending, so that serves Matt. 18:16-17 and I know how to behave myself in the house of God, so that serves 1 Timothy 3:15.

    Matthew 18:16-17

    16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

    17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.



    1 Timothy 3:15

    15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.


    And at the present time, I am in the care of the best ‘Overseer’ of all time.
    Do you see a problem with that??
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  16. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Really? If there is only one position, and it is so remarkably straight forward, why are there so many competing sola scripturist factions, teaching different doctrines on key theological issues like, what kind of faith saves? Is baptism necessary? Needed? Is baptism for infants? Must baptism be by immersion only? Can one lose salvation? How? Can it be gotten back? How? Is the Real Presence true? Are spiritual gifts like tongues and healing for today? For everyone? What about predestination? What about free will? What about church government? Abortion is allowed. Abortion is not allowed. We recognize same sex marriage. We do not recognize same sex marriage. ect... ect... So the next question has to be asked, who has or holds the authority of this only one position on Sola Scriptura to determine who is correct in these matters, and who is in error? Way I see it, this is an important indicator of the practical failure of the doctrine of private judgment, and thus the doctrine of sola scriptura.

    Not to mention it's unbiblical. ;)

    Ahhhh..... No. The Catholic Church does not...... I repeat, does not embrace the unbiblical and neoteric belief of sola scriptura. Besides we have the Magisterium.

    I would tell them to go to their nearest Catholic book store, or Parish and pick up a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church to see just exactly what the Catholic Church teaches.

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  17. Albion

    Albion Factchecker

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    Those are conclusions different people reached by following the principle we call Sola Scriptura. But that isn't Sola Scriptura itself. And Sola Scriptura isn't multifaceted or a collection of different ideas or a grab bag of variations on a theme, or anything of the sort. :)


    LOL. I didn't say anything about the Catholic Church embracing Sola Scriptura.

    Oh yes. Something that exists only in theory. And you think that's better than Scripture??

    Or maybe there's legend, custom, and folklore--what your church calls "Sacred Tradition" even though the best known doctrines claimed in its name aren't traditional at all.

    Scripture, the word of God, looks a lot more dependable than that stuff when you think about it for a moment! ;)

    Anyway, Catholics themselves are all over the place when it comes to doctrines, even ones that are supposedly infallible and required for salvation So....they're no different from Protestants in that respect.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2021
  18. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    You gotta be kidding, we witness right here on CF forums sola scriptura conformist posters disagreeing on what they or their church interprets and believe on any certain bible verse say's or means all the time..... you included!

    Just making sure other folks don't get the notion or idea we Catholics do embrace this non-biblical belief. ;)

    Nope.....The Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Pope and the bishops in union with him, is illustrated in various places in the New Testament. All of the apostles have the power to bind and loose (Matt. 15:15-18), but only St. Peter—the first Pope—had “the keys of the kingdom of heaven,” illustrating his primacy re: teaching and governing in leading the Church (Matthew 16:18-19). We also see the teaching authority of Peter and the apostles affirmed in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) and in Acts 2:42.

    Hmmm.... odd thing for you to say, being you pride yourself as a poster very knowledgeable of the Catholic Church and her teachings. This proves that you are not. Reason being, if you did, you would know that Catholics agree that Scripture is supremely important, we don’t believe that it’s the only infallible guide to our faith. We believe that Sacred Tradition is just as important and authoritative as the Bible and that the Magisterium of the Church (the pope and all the bishops of the world in communion with him) can infallibly teach about faith and morals. Taken together, these three authorities form the supreme rule of our faith. Scripture and Tradition contain God’s revelation to us, and the Magisterium authoritatively interprets their contents.

    If we are going to listen to the apostle Paul, then we/you should obey his command to follow the oral traditions of the Church as well (2 Thess 2:15). But you won’t do that, nor will you even investigate what they are, because it seems you live in a world of private-judgment Christianity where your personal opinions are the final authority. (Sola scriptura)

    Did Jesus teach Sola Scriptura?

    See Paragraphs 2039-2040 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

    Nope, there is a huge difference! Protestants/ non- denominationals are all over the place when it comes to doctrines. Like concretecamper said on a post somewhere, "all one has to do is follow any certain thread for a month to see for ones self." I would be willing to bet, if I were to start a thread asking Protestants/non- denominationals their understanding or definition of Sola Scriptura it would be..... again.... all over the place. ;)

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  19. Fidelibus

    Fidelibus Well-Known Member

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    Yup.... with good reason.

    Gotta call it for what it is.

    You can 'sigh' all you want, but the fact remains, your accusation is still unjustified.

    Again, my answer (what, at least twice? I lost count.) was successfully presented. Unfortunately for you, it didn't feed your seemingly anti Catholic narrative.

    First off, just because you are limited to the unbiblical belief of sola scriptura, doesn't mean I am.

    Secondly, couldn't help noticing you deflected/side-stepped providing what you believed with the bible.

    And lastly, by not being able to provide it, you should at least try to make an attempt of not being so transparent of continually going to the old anti-Catholic play book, if you can't show it from the bible, deflect and turn to the page were it says.... "If you find yourself with a question you can't answer, just throw the Catholic Churches sex abuse scandal at them to deflect." ;)

    Ha-ha... I wouldn't go so far as calling it "desperate" but only to see which one of the many flavors and interpretations of Protestantism or non-denominational of said Scripture you would provide.

    Well, I will stick with what Jesus say's about His Church. He said in Matt. 16:18, "You are Peter, and on this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it," The Catholic Church!

    I hope you ordered your Zucchetto as well. ;)

    So how do you know if any one of these churches are "teaching and preaching Christ' unadulterated, uncontaminated gospel message?" How do they get the authority to do so? Surely, as a Protestant you do not consider any of them to be infallible do you? If not, do you agree any one of these churches you are attending at any certain time could not be teaching and preaching Christ' unadulterated, uncontaminated gospel message?

    Ahem....as you being a Protestant non-Catholic, I'm pretty sure the church that you happen to be attending at any certain time is not the Church referenced in these passages, for they didn't come into existence until the sixteenth century.

    Alrighty then!

    Nope, you can believe whatever you want. ;)

    Have a Blessed Day!
     
  20. BNR32FAN

    BNR32FAN He’s a Way of life Supporter

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    Why is Peter’s successor in Rome any more significant than his successor in Antioch?
     
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