Can you fall from being saved?

[Godzchild]

Yes, it can be a mind blower to consider that God chose us of His own volition, but at least ponder the possibility.

I know when I think on it I do this before the Lord in praise, adoration and thanksgiving...

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice. I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

 

[TreeOfLife]

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice. I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

None of my business maybe, but I think you put way too much stock in your humanity.

And I think that was the point he was trying to make.

Really, who are you, or better yet, who are we to reply against God?

Do you have a case to make against God for His own sovreign choice?

Think of the implications of the question.

Charis

 

[Godzchild]

None of my business maybe, but I think you put way too much stock in your humanity.

And I think that was the point he was trying to make.

Really, who are you, or better yet, who are we to reply against God?

Do you have a case to make against God for His own sovreign choice?

Think of the implications of the question.

I'm sorry, call me daft but I really don't understand your questions.

 

[TreeOfLife]

I'm sorry, call me daft but I really don't understand your questions.

Rom 9:18-25
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who exactly is a human that he has any reply at all against that?

Charis

 

[aggie03]

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice.

What exactly do you mean here?

I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

I think I agree with what you've said here. I don't believe that God arbitrarily decides that any one particular person will be saved, but rather God has chosen that a type of people will be saved. In effect, God has chosen this type of people. I believe that God has chosen to save anyone who becomes a Christian. One is not made to become a Christian, but when one does make that decision they become part of that chosen group. Does that make any sense at all to you?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

But there are instances and warnings in the New Testament about people who had become Christians and then decided to turn their back on God. Simply because God knows that something is going to happen does not mean that judgment will be passed until it comes to pass. God knew that Uzzah was going to touch the ark, but Uzzah was not punished until he actually touched the ark. Additionally, God's anger did not burn against Uzzah until he touched the ark. I believe that we can understand that God's anger would not burn against someone who turned their back on Christ until they actually do that. Once they have done that, then, like Uzzah, they will suffer the consequences for their choices.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

The answer to this question would have to be yes because they are not guilty of anything until they do it. I am not guilty of a crime that I might commit 30 years in the future until I have committed that crime.

 

[Godzchild]

Rom 9:18-25
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who exactly is a human that he has any reply at all against that?

I'm still not quite certain what you are saying LOL. Sorry, it's probably my fault Are you saying that us being the clay and him the potter means we do not have free will? Is that what you're saying?

What exactly do you mean here?

Yeh sorry I didn't really elaborate on that did I? Well what I mean is that I believe (although I could be wrong - purely my opinion here ) that God manipulates our environment so that we obey out of our own free will.


Eg: I tell my son "You need to put on your pyjamas now" <----Me being the parent, I know what's good for him.

He says "No I don't want to" <---Him being the child doesn't know what's good for him so he doesn't comply.

I then get his blue pyjamas and his red pyjamas and say "Do you want to wear your blue pj's or your red pj's". Suddenly he's thrust from the "I don't what to" mode to an "Oh I've got to make a choice" mode.

Next thing you know, he's chosen the blue ones, blue being his favourite colour, and he's actually put on his pyjamas with his own free will. Unbeknownst to him I've actually manipulated his will and he ended up complying to my command with his own free will.

Sometimes I believe that God does this with us...being the perfect parent and all

I think I agree with what you've said here. I don't believe that God arbitrarily decides that any one particular person will be saved, but rather God has chosen that a type of people will be saved. In effect, God has chosen this type of people. I believe that God has chosen to save anyone who becomes a Christian. One is not made to become a Christian, but when one does make that decision they become part of that chosen group. Does that make any sense at all to you?

Yeh kinda...only he was able to forknow who was going to make the decision to become part of that chosen group since before the foundation of the world...hence you were his child from that point. Those who don't decided...he for saw that too and they were never his child.

But there are instances and warnings in the New Testament about people who had become Christians and then decided to turn their back on God. Simply because God knows that something is going to happen does not mean that judgment will be passed until it comes to pass. God knew that Uzzah was going to touch the ark, but Uzzah was not punished until he actually touched the ark. Additionally, God's anger did not burn against Uzzah until he touched the ark. I believe that we can understand that God's anger would not burn against someone who turned their back on Christ until they actually do that. Once they have done that, then, like Uzzah, they will suffer the consequences for their choices.

Yes but I believe that a true child of God, although they may fall, I dont' believe that they can fall too far that they can't come back. I believe that because they are God's children that they will be kept by the will of the Father. Does that mean they don't suffer consequences? Of course not! I've turned my back on God before but being as how I'm his child, like any loving parent, he came looking for me and manipulated the events in my life so that they became so painful that I had to come back to Christ because I knew that, in Christ, I was safe and warm.

See, I suffered the consequences while I was out...I was damned! Seriously I was. But just like the prodigal son, I realised that in my father's house I would be fed and clothed and provided for..but I had to get into the state of 'hunger' and 'nakedness' before I realised that I needed to be clothed and fed...and then I came home...because I am my Father's child. Hard to explain! That's how I believe that God manipulates things and allows things to happen to us so as to bring us to repentence. This happened to me.

The answer to this question would have to be yes because they are not guilty of anything until they do it. I am not guilty of a crime that I might commit 30 years in the future until I have committed that crime.

Hmmm I don't think I could! And God is not confined to time and space...so if you take away the element of time and space then the issue of 'time' isn't there. You're either his child or not. You're either his sheep or you're not. And this was predestinated since before the foundations of the world.

 

[TreeOfLife]

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

That's actually a pretty good analogy for the gospel isn't it?

 

[Jim Woodell]

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

That's actually a pretty good analogy for the gospel isn't it?

Although God is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscience, can He choose not to know??

Look at Heb. 6:4-6.

 

[aggie03]

Hmmm I don't think I could! And God is not confined to time and space...so if you take away the element of time and space then the issue of 'time' isn't there. You're either his child or not. You're either his sheep or you're not. And this was predestinated since before the foundations of the world.

This is not the full content of Godzchild's post, I would like to reply to the rest of the post later if she doesn't mind. If you do, Godzchild, please PM me and I will edit this post.

In concern about marrying someone that you knew would turn away from, didn't Jesus die so that everyone could be saved? Everyone has the opportunity to be become a Christian. This is a sacrifice that he made know that there would be people who reject it. Why would he do that? I believe he did that because I am not guilty of something until I reject it. God is outside of time, yes, but we are not. We, are therefore, bound by time. And in the construct of our lives we are not guilty of something until it is done. The predestination you refer to seems not to be referring to particular individuals, but to a particular type of people: those who become conformed to the will of the saviour.

As a side note...when did the topic of the thread shift? Is this change all right with person who started the thread?

 

[Godzchild]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

 

[aggie03]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

Exactly! It all has to happen. This is because God is a just God. He cannot punish us for something that we have not done. That would not be just. Does that make any kind of sense?

 

[TreeOfLife]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.

I had been given the one thing I needed most, but did not have a clue I needed.

I am so astoundingly lucky that God chose me.

 

[Godzchild]

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.

Interesting way of thinking. It certainly coincides with the Holy Spirit bringing the person to repentence. I'll have to think about that one some more.

Meanwhile does anyone have any scripture that spacifically says that, once we have been enlighted by the Holy Spirit of the gospel...is it a choice that we follow it?

 

[Godzchild]

Exactly! It all has to happen. This is because God is a just God. He cannot punish us for something that we have not done. That would not be just. Does that make any kind of sense?

It makes perfect sense but no one is talking about punishment are we? We are talking about predestination.

 

[TreeOfLife]

Interesting way of thinking. It certainly coincides with the Holy Spirit bringing the person to repentence. I'll have to think about that one some more.

 

[rosiecotton]

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

This is basically the way I look at it. He knew who would choose Him and who wouldn't.
The only verse I can think of right off hand about us choosing God is part of Joshua 24:15 where it says "then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."

 

[joyinhim]

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.

I had been given the one thing I needed most, but did not have a clue I needed.

I am so astoundingly lucky that God chose me.

I feel the same way about "OSAS" too. I don't understand why they make such a big deal out of it.

 

[holo]

I don't dare make an absolute stand for or against the whole OSAS thing. I do know that God is way more longsuffering than any of us, though.

But I'm not so sure it needs to be such a big issue. If someone lives in fear because they think they may not be saved, my view on OSAS won't help them one bit. They need to see Jesus and his love, that's the only thing that will truly change anybody. It changed me, more than any sermon or theological standpoint I've ever heard.

So, while I don't know where the line is drawn, or even if there is such a line at all, I know by experience that these things do not annull my salvation:

sin (occasional and habitual)
attempted suicide
drug addiction
faulty theology

 

[daverain]

If someone lives in fear because they think they may not be saved, my view on OSAS won't help them one bit.

"Whoever comes to me, I will -NEVER- drive away."

-Jesus



Peace in Christ

 

[aggie03]

"Whoever comes to me, I will -NEVER- drive away."

-Jesus



Peace in Christ

Well, the question isn't about whether or not Jesus will "drive anyone away". It's about whether or not someone can turn their back on Jesus. The Bible says that they can.