Can you be good without God?

[Davian]

Such a dark and sociopathic utterance.

Indeed.

No matter how many times I see it or hear it, it always comes as a shock.

I have never thought of this religious stuff as anything but fiction, but I do find it unsettling that there are those that really believe this stuff to be true. Billions to burn forever, for reasons beyond their control. And they seem to revel in it.

 

[Locutus]

Indeed.

I have never thought of this religious stuff as anything but fiction, but I do find it unsettling that there are those that really believe this stuff to be true. Billions to burn forever, for reasons beyond their control. And they seem to revel in it.

Even in its most inert (or quasi benevolent) form "I don't want others to burn in hell for eternity", it's still sociopathic. It's technically the same as saying "I don't want to kill you, so don't make me". Besides, it's ACCEPTED, and lived with. People who claim to love us live with the certainty that that is our fate, and they're OKAY with it. They're not willing to forfeit (the chance of) the golden ticket, even if it means everyone they know and love will be tortured forever.

 

[Locutus]

The proof has been shown. You choose to live in the Matrix you've created for yourself. That's your problem, not mine.

I have seen only claims. Where is the proof of those claims?

 

[Locutus]

Only a Sovereign King could make such a choice.

The 1500's called. Your jousting pole is ready to be picked up.

 

[Davian]

Even in its most inert (or quasi benevolent) form "I don't want others to burn in hell for eternity", it's still sociopathic. It's technically the same as saying "I don't want to kill you, so don't make me". Besides, it's ACCEPTED, and lived with. People who claim to love us live with the certainty that that is our fate, and they're OKAY with it. They're not willing to forfeit (the chance of) the golden ticket, even if it means everyone they know and love will be tortured forever.

The fear of death, and the desire to live beyond it are strong motivators, as I have seen in the gymnastics some have performed to avoid conceding that their theology is morally bankrupt (in that we are [hypothetically] held responsible for beliefs we cannot consciously control).

 

[Dave Ellis]

Show me another god that can be proved to have come to earth, displayed his deity and arose from the dead to physically eat with humans again.

It's interesting to watch you squirm in your own sins.

I'm not sure there's any god that fits that description.

If you're referring to Jesus, the stronger historical case would suggest he either didn't exist at all, or was simply some breakaway Jewish cult leader.

My money would be on that Jesus never existed.

 

[Dave Ellis]

It did make the news. We have four biographies declaring the good news as well as 23 other documents directly sharing this news.

How is it that you've missed this news? Are you illiterate?

A) "Biographies" written many decades after the supposed events, by anonymous authors who never met Jesus do not count as proof
B) Written words are not proof of anything. Proof would come in the form of some evidence that would show those words are truthful.

 

[Dave Ellis]

The proof has been shown. You choose to live in the Matrix you've created for yourself. That's your problem, not mine.

Actually, if you knew the Bible, you would recognize it is your problem.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

The bible commands you to always be prepared to give answers when they are asked of you. We are asking to see proof of your claims, and you are refusing to provide it. You are violating the commandments within your holy book.

 

[MennoSota]

Actually, if you knew the Bible, you would recognize it is your problem.

1 Peter 3:15 - But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect

The bible commands you to always be prepared to give answers when they are asked of you. We are asking to see proof of your claims, and you are refusing to provide it. You are violating the commandments within your holy book.

You've proved my point and answered the OPs question.

 

[Dave Ellis]

You've proved my point and answered the OPs question.

How do you figure?

 

[bhsmte]

How do you figure?

Clearly you didnt.

Thatnis his way of exiting the discussion.

 

[Rajni]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

As someone who sees God as permeating everything, as
well as going infinitely beyond that (panentheism), I find
the concept of "without God" rather challenging to grasp
to begin with.



-

 

[Dave Ellis]

You've proved my point and answered the OPs question.

So, your failure to live up to biblical commandments proves that atheists can't be good?

I fail to see how that works.

 

[MennoSota]

So, your failure to live up to biblical commandments proves that atheists can't be good?

I fail to see how that works.

All humans fall short of obeying God's moral laws. This is why we all are in need of God's pardon by virtue of Yeshua, Jesus, atonement for sin.
There is no other way by which humankind can be saved.

 

[ToddNotTodd]

All humans fall short of obeying God's moral laws. This is why we all are in need of God's pardon by virtue of Yeshua, Jesus, atonement for sin.
There is no other way by which humankind can be saved.

Curious... in your everyday life, do you ever call an act by a person (regardless of theistic beliefs) good?

 

[Dave Ellis]

All humans fall short of obeying God's moral laws. This is why we all are in need of God's pardon by virtue of Yeshua, Jesus, atonement for sin.
There is no other way by which humankind can be saved.

And how do you know that is true?

 

[Davian]

All humans fall short of obeying God's moral laws.

From what I gather, those laws boil down to "anything goes, as long as you believe".

This is why we all are in need of God's pardon by virtue of Yeshua, Jesus, atonement for sin.

Of course, as you are not using the word "good" in the common vernacular; for you in your theology, "good" means "believe".

There is no other way by which humankind can be saved.

Knock Knock

• Davian
• Jan 1, 2015

 

[HitchSlap]

A: No, you cannot. God is the definition of good and in order to be good without God you'd have to have good coming from outside of itself, a logical impossibility. God is the source of good and therefore everything that God proclaims and does is good by definition. Nothing morally good can come from any source outside of God and therefore nothing can be morally good unless God defines it as such. Human beings do not define what moral goodness is; God does.

God knows the true difference between good and evil because God is, by definition, the most intelligent being that there is. Everyone else is of less intelligence, so we should trust what God says about good and evil above everyone else.

Thoughts?

I think I'm good without god.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I think I'm good without god.

I am good without god.

 

[Davian]

Show me another god that can be proved to have come to earth, displayed his deity and arose from the dead to physically eat with humans again.

Another god? Show me one, period, that "can be proved to have come to earth, displayed his deity and arose from the dead to physically eat with humans again."

It's interesting to watch you squirm in your own sins.

Without gods, there is no sin.