Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

I disagree, but ok, I am following your logic. On day 6 people are already there. What does that change in terms of evolution?

It means that the text doesn't say anything about biological origins because the people are already there.

Just like if I go next door to my neighbor and knock on the door, and I see that there are people inside, that doesn't inform me of the question of where they came from in a biological sense. The text deals with events after they are already there. Just like with the earth. It's already there. The text doesn't say where it came from and what kinds of mechanisms God used or didn't use to build it beforehand.

 

[olgamc]

It means that the text doesn't say anything about biological origins because the people are already there.

Just like if I go next door to my neighbor and knock on the door, and I see that there are people inside, that doesn't inform me of the question of where they came from in a biological sense. The text deals with events after they are already there. Just like with the earth. It's already there. The text doesn't say where it came from and what kinds of mechanisms God used or didn't use to build it beforehand.

Right. Did I say that the text talks about evolution or mechanism or how God created things? Did you read my explanation about the circle and the square?

Also, just fyi. I listened to the first bit of the lecture. Sure, let's go with "When God". Let me tell you a story of how I made breakfast this morning.

When I began to make tea and toast, the tea was colorless and flavorless and steam rose up from the cup and I was staring into water. And I said let there be a tea bag. And a tea bag appeared. (I am omitting the part of how I made the tea bag appear). And I dipped the tea bag in water and I said this is good. (now I am omitting the length of time it took to steep and the explanation of the steeping process).
And I said let it be sweet. And it became sweet. (I am omitting how I made it sweet).
And I said let the fridge produce milk, and let the milk be combined with tea. And it was so. (multiple things omitted and no, fridge did not just produce milk of it's own accord)
Then I said let me make toast just the way I like it. So I made toast with butter and honey, I made two toasts just the way I like them.
And I looked at my breakfast and I said it is very good.
And I sat on the couch and enjoyed my breakfast."

Question. When I began making breakfast this morning, did tea already exist? How about toast? Did I make anything before I said let there be a tea bag? Did I show up to a prepared breakfast and say "this warm brown liquid - I am going to make it my tea, and these two pieces of toast with honey - I am going to make them mine and I am going to choose to like them". I mean come on, this is just silly. And what does any of this have to do with evolution?

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. Did I say that the text talks about evolution or mechanism or how God created things?

The question of the thread is, "can you be Christian and believe in evolution?"

Did you read my explanation about the circle and the square?

Also, just fyi. I listened to the first bit of the lecture. Sure, let's go with "When God". Let me tell you a story of how I made breakfast this morning.

When I began to make tea and toast, the tea was colorless and flavorless and steam rose up from the cup and I was staring into water. And I said let there be a tea bag. And a tea bag appeared. (I am omitting the part of how I made the tea bag appear). And I dipped the tea bag in water and I said this is good. (now I am omitting the length of time it took to steep and the explanation of the steeping process).
And I said let it be sweet. And it became sweet. (I am omitting how I made it sweet).
And I said let the fridge produce milk, and let the milk be combined with tea. And it was so. (multiple things omitted and no, fridge did not just produce milk of it's own accord)
Then I said let me make toast just the way I like it. So I made toast with butter and honey, I made two toasts just the way I like them.
And I looked at my breakfast and I said it is very good.
And I sat on the couch and enjoyed my breakfast."

Question. When I began making breakfast this morning, did tea already exist? How about toast? Did I make anything before I said let there be a tea bag? Did I show up to a prepared breakfast and say "this warm brown liquid - I am going to make it my tea, and these two pieces of toast with honey - I am going to make them mine and I am going to choose to like them". I mean come on, this is just silly. And what does any of this have to do with evolution?

That's just a cup of water there, colorless and flavorless, with steam rising from the cup.

The text doesn't say that God took something that wasn't earth and made it into earth, water into tea. It says that the earth was already present.

 

[Job 33:6]

The question of the thread is, "can you be Christian and believe in evolution?"





That's just a cup of water there, colorless and flavorless, with steam rising from the cup.

The text doesn't say that God took something that wasn't earth and made it into earth, water into tea. It says that the earth was already present.

I would think of it more like, in the beginning when I made a home, now the home was disorganized and empty.

Then I said, Lets prepare these lights, one light will be for waking me up in the morning, and for night time when I sleep, so I made the two lights, one for waking me up and the other for nighttime.

Then I said, let the table separate the left side of the dining room from the right, and it was so.

Then I said, let there be a playroom for the kids, so walls were painted with cartoons.

Then the second 3 days are the furnishing of those rooms.

Then I said, let's put the lightbulbs in the holders.

Let's put the plates and dishes on the dining room table.

Let's put the toys in the kids room. Then I said, hey kids, take care of the home, and I made the kids like me so that they could organize and take care of things like I do.

And it was good.

Then on the 7th day, I rested on my recliner and embraced my home.

‭Psalms 132:14 NIV‬
[14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

 

[Job 33:6]

I would think of it more like, in the beginning when I made a home, now the home was disorganized and empty.

Then I said, Lets prepare these lights, one light will be for waking me up in the morning, and for night time when I sleep, so I made the two lights, one for waking me up and the other for nighttime.

Then I said, let the table separate the left side of the dining room from the right, and it was so.

Then I said, let there be a playroom for the kids, so walls were painted with cartoons.

Then the second 3 days are the furnishing of those rooms.

Then I said, let's put the lightbulbs in the holders.

Let's put the plates and dishes on the dining room table.

Let's put the toys in the kids room. Then I said, hey kids, take care of the home, and I made the kids like me so that they could organize and take care of things like I do.

And it was good.

Then on the 7th day, I rested on my recliner and embraced my home.

‭Psalms 132:14 NIV‬
[14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

And we could adjust this in a handful of ways but really the story is more about organizing things, and moving things around and then filling up the rooms.

Like on day two, God reveals the dry land. It's not as though the drive land wasn't already there. It would be like me taking a mop, and cleaning up a bunch of water to reveal dry laminate flooring underneath.

And then another reason beyond this though, the text is pretty scientific anyway. Which is another reason why it doesn't contradict evolution.

‭Genesis 1:9-10 NIV‬
[9] And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

It's not that the land wasn't there, it's just that the land was revealed by the moving of water off of the top of it.

 

[olgamc]

The question of the thread is, "can you be Christian and believe in evolution?"

Correct. And when did I say that the text of the Bible contains anything about evolution?

That's just a cup of water there, colorless and flavorless, with steam rising from the cup.

Exactly. When I began to make tea, tea did not exist. Hence I began making it.

The text doesn't say that God took something that wasn't earth and made it into earth, water into tea. It says that the earth was already present.

If you ask me, "earth was formless and void" - that's not earth yet. Just like "tea was colorless and favourless" is not tea yet. When you begin making something it does not exist, and that is why you start making it.

 

[olgamc]

I would think of it more like, in the beginning when I made a home, now the home was disorganized and empty.

But that's not what it says. Not in the beginning when you made a home. If you are going to be particular, be particular. "When I began making a home". That means you didn't have a home yet. You may have had a house, but it wasn't a home yet.

"When I began building a house" - there is no house yet. Hence I begin building.
"When I began knitting a sweater" - there is no sweater yet. Hence I begin knitting.

Then I said, Lets prepare these lights, one light will be for waking me up in the morning, and for night time when I sleep, so I made the two lights, one for waking me up and the other for nighttime.

Right. If your house was completely empty, you had no lights. You had to go get them somewhere before you could designate roles to them. And you had to get appropriate lights for the roles you had in mind.

Then I said, let the table separate the left side of the dining room from the right, and it was so.

How did the table appear in an empty house? You had to go and get it, or maybe you already owned it. Either way, it had to be the appropriate size for your room and your purpose.

and I made the kids like me so that they could organize and take care of things like I do.

Good luck with that! If the kids you got are not like you to begin with, you can't make them like you. If you are a healthy and very organized person, and you happen to have a kid with adhd or a disability - there is no way you can make them like you. Just like you can't take a strawberry shortcake and make it be black forest cake.

And it was good.

Right. It was good because you had a vision to begin with. You purchased or built an appropriate house, big enough to have a playroom for the kids. You got the right lights for the job, not just some random ones. You got just the right furnishings, dishes, and toys that you wanted, to match the vision that you had. And you ended up with a nice home.

Ok, now imagine what would have happened if you did not create things to match your purpose. You show up to some storage facility full of random stuff and some cockroaches or pigeons. You try to make it into a home, but there are no rooms, so you designate the entire space as one large playroom. You designate ketchup for paint, random movie posters for cartoons, your morning lights are flickering, your night lights are industrial warehouse brightness, the dining table is a canoe, and for dishes you have to use plant pots and frizbees. Then you tell the pigeons to be like you and take care of the place.

Does that sound like you bara-ed a nice home that you have desired?

Then on the 7th day, I rested on my recliner and embraced my home.

‭Psalms 132:14 NIV‬
[14] “This is my resting place for ever and ever; here I will sit enthroned, for I have desired it.

In short, you can't get out of the fact that God started with nothing and created everything according to how He wanted it. Including us. So what does the scope of Genesis 1 have to do with evolution or no evolution?

 

[olgamc]

It's not that the land wasn't there, it's just that the land was revealed by the moving of water off of the top of it.

Sure, I don't have a problem with that. God made earth, earth was land with water on top, then God said let the water be gathered in one place so that the land can emerge. What does that have to do with evolution or no evolution?

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure, I don't have a problem with that. God made earth, earth was land with water on top, then God said let the water be gathered in one place so that the land can emerge. What does that have to do with evolution or no evolution?

Again, the text says that God created the heavens and the earth, but of course the earth is already there. Which means that creation is not related to material origins. At least not in the context that it's to used in Genesis. Bara, is not about material origins. And it's context of Genesis.

 

[Job 33:6]

But that's not what it says. Not in the beginning when you made a home. If you are going to be particular, be particular. "When I began making a home". That means you didn't have a home yet. You may have had a house, but it wasn't a home yet.

"When I began building a house" - there is no house yet. Hence I begin building.
"When I began knitting a sweater" - there is no sweater yet. Hence I begin knitting.

Right. If your house was completely empty, you had no lights. You had to go get them somewhere before you could designate roles to them. And you had to get appropriate lights for the roles you had in mind.

How did the table appear in an empty house? You had to go and get it, or maybe you already owned it. Either way, it had to be the appropriate size for your room and your purpose.

Good luck with that! If the kids you got are not like you to begin with, you can't make them like you. If you are a healthy and very organized person, and you happen to have a kid with adhd or a disability - there is no way you can make them like you. Just like you can't take a strawberry shortcake and make it be black forest cake.

Right. It was good because you had a vision to begin with. You purchased or built an appropriate house, big enough to have a playroom for the kids. You got the right lights for the job, not just some random ones. You got just the right furnishings, dishes, and toys that you wanted, to match the vision that you had. And you ended up with a nice home.

Ok, now imagine what would have happened if you did not create things to match your purpose. You show up to some storage facility full of random stuff and some cockroaches or pigeons. You try to make it into a home, but there are no rooms, so you designate the entire space as one large playroom. You designate ketchup for paint, random movie posters for cartoons, your morning lights are flickering, your night lights are industrial warehouse brightness, the dining table is a canoe, and for dishes you have to use plant pots and frizbees. Then you tell the pigeons to be like you and take care of the place.

Does that sound like you bara-ed a nice home that you have desired?


In short, you can't get out of the fact that God started with nothing and created everything according to how He wanted it. Including us. So what does the scope of Genesis 1 have to do with evolution or no evolution?

God didn't start out with nothing, the earth was already there. The lands was already there, it just had some water on it.

 

[olgamc]

God didn't start out with nothing, the earth was already there. The lands was already there, it just had some water on it.

LOL Ok, have it your way. How does that change the argument about evolution or no evolution?

 

[Job 33:6]

LOL Ok, have it your way. How does that change the argument about evolution or no evolution?

Again, the text says that God created the heavens and the earth, but of course the earth is already there. Which means that creation is not related to material origins. At least not in the context that it's to used in Genesis. Bara, is not about material origins. In it's context of Genesis.

 

[olgamc]

Again, the text says that God created the heavens and the earth, but of course the earth is already there. Which means that creation is not related to material origins. At least not in the context that it's to used in Genesis. Bara, is not about material origins. In its context of Genesis.

All of Genesis is about physical creation. But ok, have it your way.

So you think that evolution created us physically, without God, and God chose the animal called Homo sapiens that had no spiritual attributes and said hey homo, I choose you to be like Me spiritually?

So like, you just happened to come across a square and you said ok square, I am going to give you a purpose. You are now a round wheel. Like that?

 

[Job 33:6]

All of Genesis is about physical creation. But ok, have it your way.

So you think that evolution created us physically, without God, and God chose the animal called Homo sapiens that had no spiritual attributes and said hey homo, I choose you to be like Me spiritually?

So like, you just happened to come across a square and you said ok square, I am going to give you a purpose. You are now a round wheel. Like that?

I never said "without God". How many times do we have to cover this? Theistic evolution has God at the helm. It's just that the book of Genesis isn't about physical origins. The earth was already there for example. It's not the story of where earth or humanity biologically came from.

 

[olgamc]

I never said "without God". How many times do we have to cover this? Theistic evolution has God at the helm. It's just that the book of Genesis isn't about physical origins. The earth was already there for example. It's not the story of where earth or humanity biologically came from.

Ah, so God did create humans? Biologically? I mean, you never said you actually believe that God created humans. You keep saying bara means not physically, so I just want to make sure. Did God create humans physically or did He not?

 

[Job 33:6]

Ah, so God did create humans? Biologically? I mean, you never said you actually believe that God created humans. You keep saying bara means not physically, so I just want to make sure. Did God create humans physically or did He not?

Yes, with use of evolution. but not in Genesis. Just like God physically made the earth from things like accretion of debris of a supernova. But in Genesis, the earth is already there. That's just not what the story is about.

 

[olgamc]

Yes, with use of evolution. but not in Genesis. Just like God physically made the earth from things like accretion of debris of a supernova. But in Genesis, the earth is already there. That's just not what the story is about.

Ok, I understand that that’s what you think. So no biological creation in Genesis. Got it.

So what are you trying to prove exactly? What difference does this make to the evolution or no evolution argument?

 

[Job 33:6]

Ok, I understand that that’s what you think. So no biological creation in Genesis. Got it.

So what are you trying to prove exactly? What difference does this make to the evolution or no evolution argument?

The Bible isn't contradicting evolution if it's not speaking of biological origins.

 

[olgamc]

The Bible isn't contradicting evolution if it's not speaking of biological origins.

You did not read my argument, did you? And you ignored what I said about the circle and the square. Ok, suit yourself.

 

[Job 33:6]

You did not read my argument, did you? And you ignored what I said about the circle and the square. Ok, suit yourself.

I've responded on the circle and the square. What did you want to say about it?