Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Job 33:6]

Some evidence that I find compelling for evolution are, of course from the fossil record. The Bible and the fossil record actually do not align. Because the Bible has birds and fish created before land animals. Whereas in the fossil record, birds post-date dinosaurs. Which are land based.

But the fact that there is a step by step series of transitions throughout the fossil record, I think is pretty good evidence that life has evolved over time.

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Seems reasonable to me.

Alright, proving evolution. I'll take it from the top.

We could start with the fossil record. Fossil life changes over time. The order of these changes does not match Genesis chapter 1, birds do not come before land animals in the fossil record. But that's ok because the Bible was written a long time before these discoveries, similar to calculus, so it's ok that the Bible doesn't talk about it.

It's not a reasonable conclusion that earth was created with fossils in it either. We have things like foot tracks and burrows, nesting sites, feeding trace marks etc. that indicate that fossil life was alive in the past.

I also don't view God as a restless being, "I'll make this, ill make that, no no, that's not right, ill make them go extinct and start over, over and over and over again.

And so the first point I would make is to point out that there is a fossil record. And from there we can look at why common descent is the best explanation for this, by far.

And my quoted post has a few examples images to help.

 

[olgamc]

Alright, proving evolution. I'll take it from the top.

We could start with the fossil record. Fossil life changes over time. The order of these changes does not match Genesis chapter 1, birds do not come before land animals in the fossil record. But that's ok because the Bible was written a long time before these discoveries, similar to calculus, so it's ok that the Bible doesn't talk about it.

It's not a reasonable conclusion that earth was created with fossils in it either. We have things like foot tracks and burrows, nesting sites, feeding trace marks etc. that indicate that fossil life was alive in the past.

I also don't view God as a restless being, "I'll make this, ill make that, no no, that's not right, ill make them go extinct and start over, over and over and over again.

And so the first point I would make is to point out that there is a fossil record. And from there we can look at why common descent is the best explanation for this, by far.
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And my quoted post has a few examples images to help.

Sure. You have come up with the best explanation for the origins of the human body. Now please prove that a complete bio-spiritual human evolved.

 

[Bobber]

So why would one want to believe in evolution seeing they'd know they'd have to stand before God and be reproved for their foolishness.

Of course I know everyone here will agree with my statement.

 

[Job 33:6]

Sure. You have come up with the best explanation for the origins of the human body. Now please prove that a complete bio-spiritual human evolved.

The theory of evolution doesn't have anything to do with spirits or the supernatural.

I don't see that as a reasonable request.

The question of if the theory of evolution is true, does not hinge upon the question of supernatural events, because the sciences don't deal with supernatural concepts. The sciences are neutral to these kinds of things.

It would be like going to a plumber and asking them to demonstrate the spiritual nature of building a water line. That just doesn't make any sense. Because plumbing has nothing to do with the supernatural.

 

[Job 33:6]

The theory of evolution doesn't have anything to do with spirits or the supernatural.

I don't see that as a reasonable request.

The question of if the theory of evolution is true, does not hinge upon the question of supernatural events, because the sciences don't deal with supernatural concepts. The sciences are neutral to these kinds of things.

It would be like going to a plumber and asking them to demonstrate the spiritual nature of building a water line. That just doesn't make any sense. Because plumbing has nothing to do with the supernatural.

And the theory of evolution of course doesn't say anything about evolution of spirits, because it doesn't deal with supernatural concepts, but also the Bible doesn't say such things either, so there is no biblical reason for needing to justify such an idea either.

So if the Bible doesn't say anything about spirits needing to evolve or having evolved, and the theory of evolution doesn't say anything about spirits evolving or needing to evolve, then why would anyone need to prove such a thing?

There's no reason to try to prove a claim that no one is making. The Bible doesn't say it, the theory of evolution doesn't say it, and I'm not saying it, so why would I need to prove it?

 

[olgamc]

And the theory of evolution of course doesn't say anything about evolution of spirits, because it doesn't deal with supernatural concepts, but also the Bible doesn't say such things either, so there is no biblical reason for needing to justify such an idea either.

So if the Bible doesn't say anything about spirits needing to evolve or having evolved, and the theory of evolution doesn't say anything about spirits evolving or needing to evolve, then why would anyone need to prove such a thing?

There's no reason to try to prove a claim that no one is making. The Bible doesn't say it, the theory of evolution doesn't say it, and I'm not saying it, so why would I need to prove it?

You need to prove it because you said you believe that people evolved.

As you have stated, evolution theory has nothing to do with the spiritual. So at best, evolution theory and
specifically the concept of macro evolution, even if proven to be a fact (which it hasn’t been yet), would only apply to a human body and not to a complete human. So for the spiritual part you turn to the Bible, which never mentions evolution of a human spirit. It does mention other things about the human spirit though. Can you use the Bible to prove that a human spirit evolved and that macro evolution, if it were true, must necessarily apply to humans?

 

[Job 33:6]

You need to prove it because you said you believe that people evolved.

As you have stated, evolution theory has nothing to do with the spiritual. So at best, evolution theory and
specifically the concept of macro evolution, even if proven to be a fact (which it hasn’t been yet), would only apply to a human body and not to a complete human. So for the spiritual part you turn to the Bible, which never mentions evolution of a human spirit. It does mention other things about the human spirit though. Can you use the Bible to prove that a human spirit evolved?

Yes, people biologically evolved. I never said that people spiritually evolved.

"So if the Bible doesn't say anything about spirits needing to evolve or having evolved, and the theory of evolution doesn't say anything about spirits evolving or needing to evolve, then why would anyone need to prove such a thing?

There's no reason to try to prove a claim that no one is making. The Bible doesn't say it, the theory of evolution doesn't say it, and I'm not saying it, so why would I need to prove it?"

 

[sfs]

So at best, evolution theory and
specifically the concept of macro evolution, even if proven to be a fact (which it hasn’t been yet)

Sure it has, in the ordinary sense of the 'proven' -- that is, macro evolution, including human evolution, has been well enough established by a wealth of evidence that those who work in biology can treat it as simply being true.

would only apply to a human body and not to a complete human. So for the spiritual part you turn to the Bible, which never mentions evolution of a human spirit. It does mention other things about the human spirit though. Can you use the Bible to prove that a human spirit evolved?

Has anyone suggested that a human spirit evolved? If you believe that the human spirit is a distinct entity apart from the body (which is rather more Greek than Hebrew anthropology), then you can accept that evolution produced the human body (including its brain) and a supernatural act of God produced (or produces) human spirits. Lots of Christians who accept the evidence for common descent believe something like that. If you believe that 'spirit' is just a way of talking about an aspect of thinking, feeling, relating human beings, then the spirit isn't a distinct thing and asking for proof that it evolved makes no sense.

Either way, you seem to be arguing against some position that almost no one holds.

 

[olgamc]

Sure it has, in the ordinary sense of the 'proven' -- that is, macro evolution, including human evolution, has been well enough established by a wealth of evidence that those who work in biology can treat it as simply being true.

Has anyone suggested that a human spirit evolved? If you believe that the human spirit is a distinct entity apart from the body (which is rather more Greek than Hebrew anthropology), then you can accept that evolution produced the human body (including its brain) and a supernatural act of God produced (or produces) human spirits. Lots of Christians who accept the evidence for common descent believe something like that. If you believe that 'spirit' is just a way of talking about an aspect of thinking, feeling, relating human beings, then the spirit isn't a distinct thing and asking for proof that it evolved makes no sense.

Either way, you seem to be arguing against some position that almost no one holds.

Sure people hold it. People say that humans evolved. What do they mean by humans? Do they mean a complete person or just the physical body?

 

[olgamc]

Yes, people biologically evolved. I never said that people spiritually evolved.

"So if the Bible doesn't say anything about spirits needing to evolve or having evolved, and the theory of evolution doesn't say anything about spirits evolving or needing to evolve, then why would anyone need to prove such a thing?

There's no reason to try to prove a claim that no one is making. The Bible doesn't say it, the theory of evolution doesn't say it, and I'm not saying it, so why would I need to prove it?"

Ah. Ok. So you believe that homo sapiens evolved. Thank you for clarifying.

What do you believe about people then? Not just the biological body part, but a complete person, the bio-spiritual being? Did people evolve?

 

[olgamc]

Sure it has, in the ordinary sense of the 'proven' -- that is, macro evolution, including human evolution, has been well enough established by a wealth of evidence that those who work in biology can treat it as simply being true.

Has anyone suggested that a human spirit evolved? If you believe that the human spirit is a distinct entity apart from the body (which is rather more Greek than Hebrew anthropology), then you can accept that evolution produced the human body (including its brain) and a supernatural act of God produced (or produces) human spirits. Lots of Christians who accept the evidence for common descent believe something like that. If you believe that 'spirit' is just a way of talking about an aspect of thinking, feeling, relating human beings, then the spirit isn't a distinct thing and asking for proof that it evolved makes no sense.

Either way, you seem to be arguing against some position that almost no one holds.

And yes, I agree with you, that based on the physical evidence it is reasonable to conclude that macro evolution exists and applies to all biological life. But it wouldn’t stand up in court of law, because it doesn’t consider all of the available evidence. Like someone else said, imagine standing one day before God and arguing that macro evolution exist and always applies. And God says thank you very much for presenting all your evidence to support your case, but you ignored the key piece - I exist. I created evolution. I defined how it works. I put the limits on it as I saw fit, and I used it as a tool as I deemed necessary. What are you going to answer then?

 

[Job 33:6]

Ah. Ok. So you believe that homo sapiens evolved. Thank you for clarifying.

What do you believe about people then? Not just the biological body part, but a complete person, the bio-spiritual being? Did people evolve?

How the physical human body receives it's spirit, is something that has been debated for centuries. Some early church fathers have suggested that spirits may be eternal and may enter the body at birth. Others have believed that spirits may be created at the time of conception or later on.

Biological organisms evolve because we have DNA. Spiritual wouldn't have DNA, so I wouldn't think of them as evolving things.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And yes, I agree with you, that based on the physical evidence it is reasonable to conclude that macro evolution exists and applies to all biological life. But it wouldn’t stand up in court of law, because it doesn’t consider all of the available evidence. Like someone else said, imagine standing one day before God and arguing that macro evolution exist and always applies. And God says thank you very much for presenting all your evidence to support your case, but you ignored the key piece - I exist. I created evolution. I defined how it works. I put the limits on it as I saw fit, and I used it as a tool as I deemed necessary. What are you going to answer then?

... I'd probably say something like, "Oh, Lord! Surely you know! Please forgive me, but You left us with so much diversified evidence for the scientific theory of evolution that we eventually couldn't help but notice, and we tried and tried and tried to see your Handiwork as it was, but among all of the available scientific evidence, we found very few of what may have appeared to be Your fingerprints.... that and Peter Enns' book, The Evolution of Adam, seemed somewhat compelling to me ... "

 

[Job 33:6]

... I'd probably say something like, "Oh, Lord! Surely you know! Please forgive me, but You left us with so much diversified evidence for the scientific theory of evolution that we eventually couldn't help but notice, and we tried and tried and tried to see your Handiwork as it was, but among all of the available scientific evidence, we found very few of what may have appeared to be Your fingerprints.... that and Peter Enns' book, The Evolution of Adam, seemed somewhat compelling to me ... "

Pete Enns wrote a book on the evolution of Adam? Haha. That actually sounds interesting.

 

[olgamc]

The theory of evolution doesn't have anything to do with spirits or the supernatural.

I don't see that as a reasonable request.

The question of if the theory of evolution is true, does not hinge upon the question of supernatural events, because the sciences don't deal with supernatural concepts. The sciences are neutral to these kinds of things.

It would be like going to a plumber and asking them to demonstrate the spiritual nature of building a water line. That just doesn't make any sense. Because plumbing has nothing to do with the supernatural.

Actually, it's more like going to a plumber who is installing a horizontal line and telling him to consider gravity. And the plumber saying why would I - I am a plumber, not a physicist.

 

[olgamc]

How the physical human body receives it's spirit, is something that has been debated for centuries. Some early church fathers have suggested that spirits may be eternal and may enter the body at birth. Others have believed that spirits may be created at the time of conception or later on.

Biological organisms evolve because we have DNA. Spiritual wouldn't have DNA, so I wouldn't think of them as evolving things.

Right... so you don't believe that humans evolved? Or you do? Or you don't really know the origin of humans - i.e. how complete humans came to exist?

 

[olgamc]

... I'd probably say something like, "Oh, Lord! Surely you know! Please forgive me, but You left us with so much diversified evidence for the scientific theory of evolution that we eventually couldn't help but notice, and we tried and tried and tried to see your Handiwork as it was, but among all of the available scientific evidence, we found very few of what may have appeared to be Your fingerprints.... that and Peter Enns' book, The Evolution of Adam, seemed somewhat compelling to me ... "

Right. So in order that we don't have to face that conversation, the Lord didn't just give us nature. He gave us the Bible as well. He gave us both - nature and Bible. He told us everything we needed to know. He gave us the book of Genesis, where He said that it was Him who created us special, with unique attributes of being made in His image. And He gave us a book of Job where He told us not to be presumptuous and think that we know all of His ways. Not to mention the book of Romans, which says that all creation manifests His eternal power and divine nature, and warns us against exchanging the truth about Him for a lie.

This is the point that I've been trying to make. We can't just study science and ignore the Bible. And we can't just study the Bible and ignore science. God gave us both - the Word and the world. We need to study both. Not as separate disciplines, but both together. If we are going to make a theory, we need to validate it with both the text and the physical evidence.

 

[Job 33:6]

Actually, it's more like going to a plumber who is installing a horizontal line and telling him to consider gravity. And the plumber saying why would I - I am a plumber, not a physicist.

Gravity isn't supernatural.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right... so you don't believe that humans evolved? Or you do? Or you don't really know the origin of humans - i.e. how complete humans came to exist?

In a biological sense, yes, humans evolved. But you won't find this in the Bible, because the Bible is not a science textbook.

Remember, the original post of this thread is about biological evolution. It's not about the evolution of spirits or anything like that.

 

[sfs]

Sure people hold it. People say that humans evolved. What do they mean by humans? Do they mean a complete person or just the physical body?

At a minimum, I mean that the biological organisms that are humans are the product of evolution. That's what lots of Christians reject and it's important to me as a biologist.