Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

NBB · Feb 11, 2024

We have a soul inside that works with our bodies, our intelligence comes from it, that alone destroy evolution as told today.
We were not some amoebas that alone with this process produced every life on earth, that is totally false, God had in mind what to do a made it happen because he planed everything.
Intelligent design is more close to the truth than evolution.

public hermit · Feb 12, 2024

sfs said:
Instead of asking all of these questions, why not just explain what you meant by saying that theories can have more or less mathematical justification? The propositions you're offering are pretty much meaningless without a context.

sfs said:
Scientific theories are never justified mathematically; mathematics is used in scientific theories to model behavior of systems. The more complex the system, the harder it is to model mathematically. Since evolution concerns extremely complex systems, it's harder to model than, say, elementary particles.

What is the relation between theory and mathmatics? I thought mathematics justified theories so long as the math was validated by some form of observation. But I think I see what you're saying. Evolution is hard to justify or model mathematically because of complexity. Is there a theoretical possibility it could be modeled mathematically, e g., genetics or computers? I'm an idiot so this is an honest question.

sfs · Feb 12, 2024

public hermit said:
I thought mathematics justified theories so long as the math was validated by some form of observation.

My point is that math only makes predictions about observations in the context of the rest of a theory -- that's needed to connect terms in equations with observable phenomena. Math is just a way of conceptualizing the theory.

tonychanyt · Feb 12, 2024

sfs said:
Instead of asking all of these questions, why not just explain what you meant by saying that theories can have more or less mathematical justification?

justification in the sense of corroboration and support, i.e., the more mathematical support, the more solid the science. It is not justification in the sense of full proof.

Kokavkrystallos · Feb 12, 2024

From the message I just finished yesterday "THE INFINITE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD" -

Romans 1:20: "For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."
The depths of Gods knowledge are literally astronomical: it's endless, it's infinite, and that's hard for us to comprehend; but seek Him and His knowledge, and the knowledge of Him, and how His plan and His will is woven intricately throughout history, and visible in creation. The top left photo here is of "Laminin" - Laminin is a very complex adhesion protein that regulate multiple cellular activities and signaling pathways. The other photos are of the "Cross" in the center of the M51 Whirlpool Galaxy, and the Galaxy itself:

"The "X" is due to absorption by dust and marks the exact position of a black hole which may have a mass equivalent to one-million stars like the sun. The darkest bar may be an edge-on dust ring which is 100 light-years in diameter. The edge-on torus not only hides the black hole and accretion disk from being viewed directly from earth, but also determines the axis of a jet of high-speed plasma and confines radiation from the accretion disk to a pair of oppositely directed cones of light, which ionize gas caught in their beam. The second bar of the "X" could be a second disk seen edge on, or possibly rotating gas and dust in M51 intersecting with the jets and ionization cones."
Lots of scientific jargon there to say they really don't know, basically, but we know that from Psalm 19:1, "The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge."
As for Laminin, it possess three different chains (α, β and γ): it is a THREEFOLD CORD. "a threefold cord is not quickly broken." (Ecclesiastes 4:12)
Proverbs 9:10, "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."
Below are diagrams of bacterial flagellum. It's literally a little rotary motor. This design defies evolution! No way something so complex could come about by random chance, mutation, or "natural selection." Intelligent design is the ONLY RATIONAL explanation.

Darwin raises several questions on his own evolutionary theory when he wrote: : "Organs of extreme perfection and complication.—To suppose that the eye, with all its inimitable contrivances for adjusting the focus to different distances, for admitting different amounts of light, and for the correction of spherical and chromatic aberration, could have been formed by natural selection, seems, I freely confess, absurd in the highest possible degree."
"Have we any right to assume that the Creator works by intellectual powers like those of man?"
"The electric organs of fishes offer another case of special difficulty; it is impossible to conceive by what steps these wondrous organs have been produced;..."
- chapter 6, On the Origin of Species"
I wish he could have seen the bacterial flagellum motor, but that wasn't confirmed to be a rotary motor until the early 1970s, over 100 years after Darwin.
Here, let's look at Samuel: 1 Samuel 2:3, "Talk no more so exceeding proudly; let not arrogancy come out of your mouth: for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed."

The proud and the wise of this world are foolish to God. They think they know so much, but the more they learn, the more questions they have, and many more academics are starting to admit the universe is finely tuned as if by design. Just the fact life exists on a planet teeming with such varieties of species is proof enough: We're just the right distance from the sun; there's the exact amount of gases in the atmosphere to sustain all the life forms. The odds of this all coming about by "natural selection" are way too big to be realistic, especially considering the 2nd law of thermodynamics: the law of entropy - things degrade over time and become more disorderly, rather than evolve into more complexities. Yea, but Christ is "upholding all things by the word of his power" (Heb 1:3), and "by him all things consist" (Col 1:17) "Consist" is "synistemi" in Greek, meaning: to place together, set in one place, bring, band, or unite together.

This comes from the Gemini Observatory: "Many galaxies in the young Universe are not behaving as expected some 8-11 billion years ago.
The surprise: these galaxies appear to be more fully formed and mature than expected at this early stage in the evolution of the Universe..
Theory tells us that this epoch should be dominated by little galaxies crashing together. We are seeing that a large fraction of the stars in the Universe are already in place when the Universe was quite young, which should not be the case. This glimpse back in time shows pretty clearly that we need to re-think what happened during this early epoch in galactic evolution."
Why do Galaxies in the Young Universe Appear so Mature?

Or, consider most scientists claimed the age of the universe to be about 13.7 or 13.8 billion years old, until the James Webb telescope discovered galaxies farther out, so now some estimate it's 26.7 billion years old. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second, and that's a constant: not faster, not slower. Please explain then the fully formed galaxies at the very edge of our viewing distance?

Job 38:19-20 explains, "Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof, That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?" The boundaries and the paths of light and darkness: the light was created en route in the beginning. It did not "travel" from stars to all points outward, but light was created before the stars according to Genesis 1:3-4, on day one, whereas the sun, moon & stars are created on day four.

In the beginning God created..." (Genesis 1:1) "Berashit bara Elohim" בראשית ברא אלהים . "Bara" means "created" ברא . Bet ב is the first letter in the word "Ben" בן , which means "Son." Resh ר is the first letter in the word Ruach רוח which means "Spirit." Aleph א is the first letter in the word "Ab" אב which means "Father." The total number of Hebrew letters in Ben Ruach Ab בן רוח אב is 7, the sacred number of Creation, a symbol of completion and perfection. בן רוח אב translated means "Son of a Fathers Spirit," which we know is Jesus Christ.

Psalm 27 · Feb 12, 2024

sfs said:
False.

You've violated site rules

sfs · Feb 12, 2024

Psalm 27 said:
You've violated site rules

Which rule?

th1bill · Feb 12, 2024

To believe Trash Science is to disarm Yahova in one manner or the other and He compels absolute faith in him. No matter who tries to tweak the distance between verses one and two of the Genesis Account, it does not say Yahova created the Earth and then created a Primordial Pool that spewed out a worm that evolved into Adam... Oh, and then He took a rib and created Eve. That is just not what the Scriptures say to any Holy Ghost Indwelt man or woman. The question cannot be settled over the Internet but, the question is, "Is the other person fully relying on the Spirit of Yahova to read the Holy Scriptures?"

Psalm 27 · Feb 13, 2024

Jesus taught in luke 16:31
"if they do not believe Moses and the prophets, they will not be persuaded, even though one rises from the dead".

tonychanyt · Feb 13, 2024

th1bill said:
To believe Trash Science

Define Trash Science operationally.

th1bill · Feb 14, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Define Trash Science operationally.

Not Emperical Science

tonychanyt · Feb 15, 2024

th1bill said:
Not Emperical Science

reference?

Jipsah · Feb 25, 2024

sfs said:
Scientific theories are never justified mathematically

You need to reexamine that idea, mate.

sfs · Feb 25, 2024

Jipsah said:
You need to reexamine that idea, mate.

Why? What theory do you think has been justified by its math?

Fervent · Feb 25, 2024

The question boils down to, essentiallly, a matter of hermeneutics rather than a matter of science. If we believe the Bible must be taken completely literally and presents a completely accurate account of history, then we cannot believe the theory of evolution by natural selection and maintain consistency in our thinking. One of those things has to give. However, viewing the Bible as a literal history is not the only option available to us as Christians and to some extent has not been the normative practice of Christians historically up until about the 18th century emergence of fundamentalism. So whether or not one can believe in evolution and maintain Christian faith is entirely dependent upon how literally Christianity requires us to take the Bible, rather than any modifications on how we hold evolutionary theory.

tonychanyt · Feb 26, 2024

Fervent said:
If we believe the Bible must be taken completely literally and presents a completely accurate account of history, then we cannot believe the theory of evolution by natural selection and maintain consistency in our thinking. One of those things has to give.

Are you saying that they contradict?

Psalm 27 · Feb 26, 2024

tonychanyt said:
The Cheating Cell: How Evolution Helps Us Understand and Treat Cancer

Still no cure for it is there?...
Did evolution help find the cure for aids?

tonychanyt · Feb 26, 2024

Psalm 27 said:
Still no cure for it is there?...

Right, not yet.

Psalm 27 said:
Did evolution help find the cure for aids?

Let Proposition P1 = Evolution is the cure-all.

True?

Neostarwcc · Feb 26, 2024

There's a reformed Christian Youtuber named Reformed Zoomer who believes in evolution and still is a Christian in every sense of the word based on the videos he posts so yes, it's possible. I personally think evolution is incompatible with the Biblical accounts but not every Christian is going to or should ever agree with me.

Fervent · Feb 26, 2024

tonychanyt said:
Are you saying that they contradict?

Yes, a literal reading of Genesis and the theory of evolution are incompatible for a number of reasons. For example, in evolution death has to have entered the picture long before human beings whereas according to Genesis death follows the first sin. Evolution can only happen in a world that is already fallen, so the fall would have to predate human beings. Unless we modify either the theory of evolution, or our understanding of what Genesis is telling us the two accounts are incompatible.

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

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