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What does this mean?I never said I don't believe Adam was created on the 6th day. And yes I agree it could of took 24 hours or 1.314 × 1013 hours
Show me in the bible it was instantlyNot according to this statement
In the beginning of creation or on earth today?What does this mean?
1.314 × 1013 hours
How many hours are in one day?
Right. You become a sinner when you give in to temptation. Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted, but did not sin. Giving into temptation is sin. So technically the first person who sinned was Eve, but Eve was under Adam's authority as his wife, and therefore Adam was responsible. Adam also ate with her, so Adam was responsible personally as well as responsible as a leader.
I think you are confusing terms a little bit. Let's define these words. Oxford languages:
evil - profoundly immoral and wicked
temptation - the desire to do something wrong or unwise
sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law
soul - the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal
So Satan was evil. Evil existed in the spiritual realm but Adam and Eve did not know it. They knew about it because of the tree, but they did not know it intimately. They knew good intimately, because they knew God intimately, but they did not know evil.
Agree?
Then God gives a commandment - do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As in do not learn how to be evil.
Eve is tempted - being tempted is not a sin. Eve gives into temptation, eats the fruit, and simultaneously sins and learns how to sin or learns what evil is and how to be evil. Adam does the same.
Agree?
So yes, technically Eve sinned first, but she was Adam's flesh and bone and she was under Adam's authority as his wife, so what she did Adam did. Adam is being held responsible for bringing sin into the world not only because he ate, but also because of his status as being Eve's husband. Just like the pastor of a church would be held responsible if the church decided to burn a witch, for example.
Ok, so Adam and Eve sin/learn how to be evil, and experience spiritual death - a separation from God. And that is the fate of every human being that has ever lived, we are spiritually dead and separated from God. We get to the judgement day, and God's like well, you're separated from Me, so no heaven for you. Except that God didn't want that. So He made a plan. Spiritual sin could be passed onto a physical body of a lamb, and the lamb could die a physical death, but the person would no longer have that particular sin, so the person would be made spiritually alive. Except that that only worked for one sin at a time. So He sent His own Son, who took a physical body of a human and died both a physical and a spiritual death in exchange for all of our sins at once, and that's how we can be raised both physically and spiritually to an eternal physical and spiritual life.
Agree?
And God also said that for those people who lived between Adam and Jesus there was an slightly modified path - all they had to do was believe in God, and it would be credited to them as righteousness because their sins would get paid for by Jesus anyway.
So far so good?
Ok. Now let's introduce Adam's grandma. Let's call her Lucy. Lucy is a person, with a soul because, like you say, a person is a person is a person. She lives without knowing God because, as you say, God had not had a relationship with humans. She also does not know how to be evil and she does not sin. She does not sin because there is no law. She does not know how to be evil, because Adam would have known it and he didn't. She dies. Adam and Eve sin. Dead Lucy who never disobeyed God and did not know how to be evil is now considered sinful because "all have sinned". By now she is dead, so she can't decide to believe in God. At judgement day, where does she go?
PS. This, by the way, has nothing to do with whether evolution is real. This has to do with whether God chose to create humans by evolution, or if God chose to just create them and give them a body of a mammal, but we don't know how exactly. What we are trying to do is see if we can use theology and logic to discover whether Lucy could have been Adam's ancestor.
On the sixth day. I never said it was instantly.Show me in the bible it was instantly
But are you speaking of adaptation or Darwinian evolution? Adaptation is falsifiable and demonstrable. Both can be observed. Darwinian evolution presents so many improbabilities that it is a black box theory. Now, in fairness, if we put creation under the same microscope as evolution, it also has improbabilities. From a purely human viewpoint, origins are obscure and not very well understood.Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?
Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution without believing in it. Let's talk about the utility of the theory of Evolution.
I am a Christian and worked evolution. I used the evolution model to implement AI programs. They are called evolutionary algorithms. You don't have to believe in evolution to work with it. If you search US patents in the last ten years, you will find many applications of evolution models. The theory of evolution has practical values. The US economy benefits from it. You cannot deny its utility.
Unlike other branches of hard sciences, there is not as much mathematical justification for Evolution. Nevertheless, it is a useful paradigm.
The Cheating Cell: How Evolution Helps Us Understand and Treat Cancer
If the theory works in daily practical life, there is no need to reject it. There is no need to believe in it either in the sense of spiritual faith.
See also
And I never said Adam wasn't of the 6th dayOn the sixth day. I never said it was instantly.
Is there a difference?In the beginning of creation or on earth today?
I use the term evolution biologically and technically. It describes the process by which populations of organisms change over time through successive generations. It is driven by mechanisms such as natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, and gene flow.But are you speaking of adaptation or Darwinian evolution?
Yes, all of these things also describe adaptation. But changing from a single-celled creature into a fully functional human is quite a different story. That would be akin to AI turning itself into a sentient entity without programmers' interference.I use the term evolution biologically and technically. It describes the process by which populations of organisms change over time through successive generations. It is driven by mechanisms such as natural selection, genetic drift, mutation, and gene flow.
Good point. See Adam, Eve, and Evolution and follow up there.Yes, all of these things also describe adaptation. But changing from a single-celled creature into a fully functional human is quite a different story. That would be akin to AI turning itself into a sentient entity without programmers' interference.
I'm not at liberty to speculate about something that actually contradicts what God has said. God said He created everything that exists in 6 days, so I have to take Him at His word and utterly reject all other theories. There is no wiggle room to allow any other viable possibilities to come into the pictureThere’s nothing wrong with speculation if it doesn’t contradict what is written but we shouldn’t even hold our speculations to be true but merely hold them as a viable possibility.
Yes I absolutely agree 100%, what I was referring to are things that are unclear according to the scriptures. There are a few things I hold as possibilities like annihilationism or eternal torment. The scriptures give evidence supporting both of these concepts and honestly I can’t determine which is correct. My compassion causes me to lean towards annihilationism yet I don’t treat the idea as truth because I can’t be sure if that’s what actually takes place or not. I’m a firm believer in saying “I don’t know”, sometimes that’s the best answer because it’s a lot better than giving a wrong answer. But on the subject of creation the scriptures are crystal clear. The only thing that causes them to be unclear is outside influence that is not coming from scripture.I'm not at liberty to speculate about something that actually contradicts what God has said. God said He created everything that exists in 6 days, so I have to take Him at His word and utterly reject all other theories. There is no wiggle room to allow any other viable possibilities to come into the picture
I'm not at liberty to speculate about something that actually contradicts what God has said. God said He created everything that exists in 6 days, so I have to take Him at His word and utterly reject all other theories. There is no wiggle room to allow any other viable possibilities to come into the picture
Ok. You entirely missed the difference between sin and evil. But ok. Let's say you are right and God created a world with evil in it and called it good because for whatever reason He did not care that the world was evil, He just cared that it worked. I very very deeply disagree with this, but fine.People can always be saved by Christ, even after death.
I know there are bible verses which seem to contradict others, but most theologians agree that there are no contradictions in the bible and the problem is misinterpretation. Every single verse in the bible must be in harmony and line up with the rest of the bible.Yes I absolutely agree 100%, what I was referring to are things that are unclear according to the scriptures. There are a few things I hold as possibilities like annihilationism or eternal torment. The scriptures give evidence supporting both of these concepts and honestly I can’t determine which is correct. My compassion causes me to lean towards annihilationism yet I don’t treat the idea as truth because I can’t be sure if that’s what actually takes place or not. I’m a firm believer in saying “I don’t know”, sometimes that’s the best answer because it’s a lot better than giving a wrong answer. But on the subject of creation the scriptures are crystal clear. The only thing that causes them to be unclear is outside influence that is not coming from scripture.
Paul is talking from Adam until Moses. Not before Adam. So from Adam to Moses there was sin (because of Adam) but no law (because no Moses). And sinning not in the same way that Adam - well, how did Adam sin? He ate the fruit. Nobody else was able to sin in the same way because we don't have access to the fruit. We sin in other ways - we lie, we murder, we have a sin of pride.Also, I would say that that's probably why Paul is talking about two different kinds of sin in verse 14.
Romans 5:14 NET
[14] Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed.
Here Paul refers to sin, but he says that it is not in the same way that Adam transgressed. He's saying that there were people who sinned, not in the same way that Adam sinned. Because some people sin under the law, and some people don't.
And then if we back up one verse again, we see that sin under the law is held accountable, and send not under the law is not held accountable.
And so Adam's grandma would fit the latter category. She would not have been a perfect being like Jesus, she would have sinned, but with no law, she would not have been held accountable. And she would have lived and died this way, unless she lived after the fall. But in this hypothetical I guess we're just thinking about people prior to Adam, who lived and died prior to the fall.
God has appointed men to teach and explain how to apply the whole counsel of God to our lives. Ordinary Church members don't have the time to study the Bible, because we're busy and committed to our work.Thing about Genesis is that the whole book is full of both literal and non-literal passages. On top of that a lot of the cultural context behind the text has been lost to history.
Thank you for the link. Some quotes from that article:Here's the gospel coalition:
The Origin of Sin
The question of the origin of Sin asks what was the cause of Adam’s sin, by which the human race fell from righteousness to condemnation.www.thegospelcoalition.org
They talk about Satan's sin prior to the fall.
Even answers in Genesis recognizes sin before the fall as well.
Very conservative organizations, and Bible scholars alike in academia, it's very common that you'll find the understanding that there was sin before the fall.
I don't think I'd refer to Adams grandma as evil. Though she was sinful. Sorry I'm not following here.Ok. You entirely missed the difference between sin and evil. But ok. Let's say you are right and God created a world with evil in it and called it good because for whatever reason He did not care that the world was evil, He just cared that it worked. I very very deeply disagree with this, but fine.
So following your logic, Lucy gets saved because she is a person. Let's keep going up the family tree. Lucy's grandma also gets saved because she is also a person? Lucy's grandma's grandma, who is an ape gets saved because she is a person? An ameba gets saved because it is a person? Surely there has to be a change from an animal to a person at some point in history?
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