Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

[Dan1988]

I didn't say your view HAS to line up with mine. And you're incorrect to say that I don't agree with anything you believe. You, as you've said, don't know that.

Maybe instead, just assume I'm a fellow Christian along side yourself, even if you and I don't see eye to eye on every aspect of the Bible. I'm sure that if we were to compare notes, we'd find some similarities in our respective views of faith since we both have our eyes on Jesus.

Thanks for pointing out those points. I've been debating this subject for a long time now, and I feel spiritually drained because there are so many opposing views from Christians. I haven't had any problems with the Atheists, they know what I believe and I know what they believe and there's a mutual respect there.
I can't say I've had the same experience with Christians, yet we're supposed to set the example for the non Christians. I admit I did get frustrated, with some people here and looking back I shouldn't have said some of things I said.
I hope you don't take anything personally, as I said I don't know you so I really shouldn't have categorized you. The Christian life is a journey, everyone is at different stages of the journey. So I can't expect everyone to see eye to eye on every issue.

 

[Job 33:6]

Here's a question for you, on the accountability topic of humanity, if you don't think sin was in the world before the fall, then what do you call Satan deceiving Eve?

Sounds like sin to me.

When God commanded Adam and Eve to subdue and rule, he's calling on them to essentially carry out a military-esque conquest. Something involving an armed struggle.

Sin was present in the world (as in the environment) but it wasn't until Adam that mankind became accountable. And therefore we sin because Adam first sinned. And sin has therefore entered the world and we are now all subject to it's repercussions (the penalty of sin).

The penalty of sin is not imputed where there is no law or accountability.

Does a cat or a dog get punished by God when they pee on the floor or steal food off your plate? No. Because they're just animals. They aren't held accountable to sin.

So sin existed, but was not counted. So how then did sin enter the world if it was already in the world?

‭‭1 Timothy 2:14 NIV‬‬
[14] And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

You can just read the Bible and see that sin was in the world before the fall.

But like I said before, sin was not counted where there was no law. Adam represents all of us. We all sin because he sinned. Sin came through him into the world, that is, to mankind.

But before Adams transgression, sin was present. Eve sinned. Satan sinned...

And Adams grandma would have sinned too.

 

[olgamc]

I don't,

Is it a limbo?, I agree it's about Adam and rather he left his parents and married a woman?. Or was it presto man and woman?. Did the nostrils come before the breath or at the same time?.

Was Eve from the same dna factory inside the bone of the rib where a lot of human dna is produced or the bone itself or something else like turned to soup and totally restructured like a butterfly?

So it wasn't dirt or bone but clay? Interesting.

I have, or should I impede on your conversation about clay?.

Respectfully, please state your point. What exactly did I say that you disagree with?

 

[olgamc]

‭‭1 Timothy 2:14 NIV‬‬
[14] And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Right. You become a sinner when you give in to temptation. Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted, but did not sin. Giving into temptation is sin. So technically the first person who sinned was Eve, but Eve was under Adam's authority as his wife, and therefore Adam was responsible. Adam also ate with her, so Adam was responsible personally as well as responsible as a leader.

You can just read the Bible and see that sin was in the world before the fall.


But like I said before, sin was not counted where there was no law. Adam represents all of us. We all sin because he sinned. Sin came through him into the world, that is, to mankind.

But before Adams transgression, sin was present. Eve sinned. Satan sinned...

And Adams grandma would have sinned too.

I think you are confusing terms a little bit. Let's define these words. Oxford languages:
evil - profoundly immoral and wicked
temptation - the desire to do something wrong or unwise
sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law
soul - the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal

So Satan was evil. Evil existed in the spiritual realm but Adam and Eve did not know it. They knew about it because of the tree, but they did not know it intimately. They knew good intimately, because they knew God intimately, but they did not know evil.

Agree?

Then God gives a commandment - do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As in do not learn how to be evil.

Eve is tempted - being tempted is not a sin. Eve gives into temptation, eats the fruit, and simultaneously sins and learns how to sin or learns what evil is and how to be evil. Adam does the same.

Agree?

So yes, technically Eve sinned first, but she was Adam's flesh and bone and she was under Adam's authority as his wife, so what she did Adam did. Adam is being held responsible for bringing sin into the world not only because he ate, but also because of his status as being Eve's husband. Just like the pastor of a church would be held responsible if the church decided to burn a witch, for example.

Ok, so Adam and Eve sin/learn how to be evil, and experience spiritual death - a separation from God. And that is the fate of every human being that has ever lived, we are spiritually dead and separated from God. We get to the judgement day, and God's like well, you're separated from Me, so no heaven for you. Except that God didn't want that. So He made a plan. Spiritual sin could be passed onto a physical body of a lamb, and the lamb could die a physical death, but the person would no longer have that particular sin, so the person would be made spiritually alive. Except that that only worked for one sin at a time. So He sent His own Son, who took a physical body of a human and died both a physical and a spiritual death in exchange for all of our sins at once, and that's how we can be raised both physically and spiritually to an eternal physical and spiritual life.

Agree?

And God also said that for those people who lived between Adam and Jesus there was an slightly modified path - all they had to do was believe in God, and it would be credited to them as righteousness because their sins would get paid for by Jesus anyway.

So far so good?

Ok. Now let's introduce Adam's grandma. Let's call her Lucy. Lucy is a person, with a soul because, like you say, a person is a person is a person. She lives without knowing God because, as you say, God had not had a relationship with humans. She also does not know how to be evil and she does not sin. She does not sin because there is no law. She does not know how to be evil, because Adam would have known it and he didn't. She dies. Adam and Eve sin. Dead Lucy who never disobeyed God and did not know how to be evil is now considered sinful because "all have sinned". By now she is dead, so she can't decide to believe in God. At judgement day, where does she go?

PS. This, by the way, has nothing to do with whether evolution is real. This has to do with whether God chose to create humans by evolution, or if God chose to just create them and give them a body of a mammal, but we don't know how exactly. What we are trying to do is see if we can use theology and logic to discover whether Lucy could have been Adam's ancestor.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It's OK to put your case forward, but you will need more than just words to make a valid claim. Every court of law requires evidence, to support one's claims. I would abandon my faith right now, if anyone found a single shred of evidence to support that theory.

I'm quietly confident, that I won't ever be renouncing my faith but I have always put the challenge out there but nobody has been able provide anything other than empty words and fantastic theories. They make for good entertainment, but they nothing more to offer.

I have even offered my house to anyone who finds a single shred of evidence to support their faith in the fantastic theory

We can’t deny that there is evidence to support the theory of evolution because the fact is there is evidence to support it. Evidence and proof are two different things. Evidence can be supportive of false theories because it doesn’t have to prove the theory to be correct it just has to indicate that it is possible or likely.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. You become a sinner when you give in to temptation. Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted, but did not sin. Giving into temptation is sin. So technically the first person who sinned was Eve, but Eve was under Adam's authority as his wife, and therefore Adam was responsible. Adam also ate with her, so Adam was responsible personally as well as responsible as a leader.

Eve sinned before the fall. Which is really the bottom line. As did Satan. Sin was present prior to the fall. Before Adam did anything. That's why Eve is identifies as a sinner in the quoted passage

I think you are confusing terms a little bit. Let's define these words. Oxford languages:
evil - profoundly immoral and wicked
temptation - the desire to do something wrong or unwise
sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law
soul - the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal

So Satan was evil. Evil existed in the spiritual realm but Adam and Eve did not know it. They knew about it because of the tree, but they did not know it intimately. They knew good intimately, because they knew God intimately, but they did not know evil.

Satan was in Eden, in the garden alongside Adam and Eve, of earth. Not in a spiritual realm.

Adam and Eve were instructed not to eat of the tree, in which case, they knew God's intent and they knew what would be rebellious.

Then God gives a commandment - do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As in do not learn how to be evil.

Eve is tempted - being tempted is not a sin. Eve gives into temptation, eats the fruit, and simultaneously sins and learns how to sin or learns what evil is and how to be evil. Adam does the same.

Agree?

So yes, technically Eve sinned first, but she was Adam's flesh and bone and she was under Adam's authority as his wife, so what she did Adam did. Adam is being held responsible for bringing sin into the world not only because he ate, but also because of his status as being Eve's husband. Just like the pastor of a church would be held responsible if the church decided to burn a witch, for example.

Satan sinned, then Eve, then Adam.

And so sin was present prior to the fall. Prior to Adam doing Anything.

So you can play word games however you want. But sin was occuring prior to Adam doing anything. Sin was unfolding prior to Adam even eating of the apple.

"sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law"

This is wrong.

‭‭Romans 5:13 NET‬‬
[13] for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law.

Before the law was given, sin was in the world. Paul can't say it any more plainly. The law is not required for sin to exist, because Paul says it very plainly, before the law was given, sin was in the world.

The difference is that it just wasn't accounted for. People were not held accountable, because they did not know the law, but they could still sin.

Ok, so Adam and Eve sin/learn how to be evil, and experience spiritual death - a separation from God. And that is the fate of every human being that has ever lived, we are spiritually dead and separated from God. We get to the judgement day, and God's like well, you're separated from Me, so no heaven for you. Except that God didn't want that. So He made a plan. Spiritual sin could be passed onto a physical body of a lamb, and the lamb could die a physical death, but the person would no longer have that particular sin, so the person would be made spiritually alive. Except that that only worked for one sin at a time. So He sent His own Son, who took a physical body of a human and died both a physical and a spiritual death in exchange for all of our sins at once, and that's how we can be raised both physically and spiritually to an eternal physical and spiritual life.

Agree?

This sounds fine.

And God also said that for those people who lived between Adam and Jesus there was an slightly modified path - all they had to do was believe in God, and it would be credited to them as righteousness because their sins would get paid for by Jesus anyway.

So far so good?

Sure.

Ok. Now let's introduce Adam's grandma. Let's call her Lucy. Lucy is a person, with a soul because, like you say, a person is a person is a person. She lives without knowing God because, as you say, God had not had a relationship with humans. She also does not know how to be evil and she does not sin. She does not sin because there is no law.

I agree up until that last sentence, Paul says that there is sin where there is no law, it's just that it's not counted.

She does not know how to be evil, because Adam would have known it and he didn't. She dies. Adam and Eve sin. Dead Lucy who never disobeyed God and did not know how to be evil is now considered sinful because "all have sinned". By now she is dead, so she can't decide to believe in God. At judgement day, where does she go?

People can always be saved by Christ, even after death. But that's kind of a side topic. There's really no limit to win Christ can save someone. So, the answer here is that we don't know where she went. But I would say just as an opinion, that is subjective that, because she didn't know evil, and didn't know God, God whatever introduced himself and giving her the opportunity to receive him, even after death.

PS. This, by the way, has nothing to do with whether evolution is real. This has to do with whether God chose to create humans by evolution, or if God chose to just create them and give them a body of a mammal, but we don't know how exactly. What we are trying to do is see if we can use theology and logic to discover whether Lucy could have been Adam's ancestor.

Yes that's fine.

 

[Job 33:6]

Right. You become a sinner when you give in to temptation. Being tempted is not a sin. Jesus was tempted, but did not sin. Giving into temptation is sin. So technically the first person who sinned was Eve, but Eve was under Adam's authority as his wife, and therefore Adam was responsible. Adam also ate with her, so Adam was responsible personally as well as responsible as a leader.


I think you are confusing terms a little bit. Let's define these words. Oxford languages:
evil - profoundly immoral and wicked
temptation - the desire to do something wrong or unwise
sin - an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law
soul - the spiritual or immaterial part of a human being or animal, regarded as immortal

So Satan was evil. Evil existed in the spiritual realm but Adam and Eve did not know it. They knew about it because of the tree, but they did not know it intimately. They knew good intimately, because they knew God intimately, but they did not know evil.

Agree?

Then God gives a commandment - do not eat the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. As in do not learn how to be evil.

Eve is tempted - being tempted is not a sin. Eve gives into temptation, eats the fruit, and simultaneously sins and learns how to sin or learns what evil is and how to be evil. Adam does the same.

Agree?

So yes, technically Eve sinned first, but she was Adam's flesh and bone and she was under Adam's authority as his wife, so what she did Adam did. Adam is being held responsible for bringing sin into the world not only because he ate, but also because of his status as being Eve's husband. Just like the pastor of a church would be held responsible if the church decided to burn a witch, for example.

Ok, so Adam and Eve sin/learn how to be evil, and experience spiritual death - a separation from God. And that is the fate of every human being that has ever lived, we are spiritually dead and separated from God. We get to the judgement day, and God's like well, you're separated from Me, so no heaven for you. Except that God didn't want that. So He made a plan. Spiritual sin could be passed onto a physical body of a lamb, and the lamb could die a physical death, but the person would no longer have that particular sin, so the person would be made spiritually alive. Except that that only worked for one sin at a time. So He sent His own Son, who took a physical body of a human and died both a physical and a spiritual death in exchange for all of our sins at once, and that's how we can be raised both physically and spiritually to an eternal physical and spiritual life.

Agree?

And God also said that for those people who lived between Adam and Jesus there was an slightly modified path - all they had to do was believe in God, and it would be credited to them as righteousness because their sins would get paid for by Jesus anyway.

So far so good?

Ok. Now let's introduce Adam's grandma. Let's call her Lucy. Lucy is a person, with a soul because, like you say, a person is a person is a person. She lives without knowing God because, as you say, God had not had a relationship with humans. She also does not know how to be evil and she does not sin. She does not sin because there is no law. She does not know how to be evil, because Adam would have known it and he didn't. She dies. Adam and Eve sin. Dead Lucy who never disobeyed God and did not know how to be evil is now considered sinful because "all have sinned". By now she is dead, so she can't decide to believe in God. At judgement day, where does she go?

PS. This, by the way, has nothing to do with whether evolution is real. This has to do with whether God chose to create humans by evolution, or if God chose to just create them and give them a body of a mammal, but we don't know how exactly. What we are trying to do is see if we can use theology and logic to discover whether Lucy could have been Adam's ancestor.

Also, I would say that that's probably why Paul is talking about two different kinds of sin in verse 14.

‭‭Romans 5:14 NET‬‬
[14] Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed.

Here Paul refers to sin, but he says that it is not in the same way that Adam transgressed. He's saying that there were people who sinned, not in the same way that Adam sinned. Because some people sin under the law, and some people don't.

And then if we back up one verse again, we see that sin under the law is held accountable, and send not under the law is not held accountable.


And so Adam's grandma would fit the latter category. She would not have been a perfect being like Jesus, she would have sinned, but with no law, she would not have been held accountable. And she would have lived and died this way, unless she lived after the fall. But in this hypothetical I guess we're just thinking about people prior to Adam, who lived and died prior to the fall.

 

[d taylor]

Can you be Christian and believe in evolution?

Sure, but you don't have to. You can assume evolution without believing in it. Let's talk about the utility of the theory of Evolution.

I am a Christian and worked evolution. I used the evolution model to implement AI programs. They are called evolutionary algorithms. You don't have to believe in evolution to work with it. If you search US patents in the last ten years, you will find many applications of evolution models. The theory of evolution has practical values. The US economy benefits from it. You cannot deny its utility.

Unlike other branches of hard sciences, there is not as much mathematical justification for Evolution. Nevertheless, it is a useful paradigm.

The Cheating Cell: How Evolution Helps Us Understand and Treat Cancer

If the theory works in daily practical life, there is no need to reject it. There is no need to believe in it either in the sense of spiritual faith.

See also

• Adam, Eve, and evolution
• How old is the earth?.

-

​

No, as a Christian is defined as one who follows Christ. Now a person may be a believer and also believe in evolution, as believing has no other requirements than believing in Jesus. That He, Jesus is the resurrection and the life, the promised Messiah/Son of God

 

[BeyondET]

Respectfully, please state your point. What exactly did I say that you disagree with?

I would have to repost everything I already posted to you, just forget about it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thanks for pointing out those points. I've been debating this subject for a long time now, and I feel spiritually drained because there are so many opposing views from Christians. I haven't had any problems with the Atheists, they know what I believe and I know what they believe and there's a mutual respect there.
I can't say I've had the same experience with Christians, yet we're supposed to set the example for the non Christians. I admit I did get frustrated, with some people here and looking back I shouldn't have said some of things I said.
I hope you don't take anything personally, as I said I don't know you so I really shouldn't have categorized you. The Christian life is a journey, everyone is at different stages of the journey. So I can't expect everyone to see eye to eye on every issue.

Well, I know we all get frustrated at times. You're right, though, the Christian life is a journey. I firmly believe that.

 

[BeyondET]

I personally don't think that speculation about what method God used to create everything, is helpful. If God wanted us to know, He would have told us. He deliberately hid many such things from us and I believe He has a good reason for doing so.

Speculation can result in a wrong worldview, we have an abundance of things to learn about God. We can't even learn everything about the things He has revealed in on lifetime, let alone things He hid from us.

The world is full of people with different theories and ideas, we can easily get lost in the maze of differing opinions about every single subject. How does one, decide who possesses the truth. Some charlatans can be very good at their craft, they have been known to deceive very intelligent people.

The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion, so I believe the enemy causes all the confusion we see around us.

I told you about information to rebuild one animal to another are within cells its even in organs so there is no confusion. You just don't want to believe it was part of creation in the beginning and still is no need to be blind about it.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I told you about information to rebuild one animal to another within cells. There is no confusion. You just don't want to believe it was part of creating in the beginning and still is.

There's the possibility you may be right, but what might have to happen, as is usually the case, your interlocutor will need to also engage your sources and/or related scholars from which you've drawn your conclusions. This in addition to taking your word for it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you know the steps God created man from dirt or does scripture describe the process, took afew hours or minutes or seconds, possibly instantly, where's the contradiction located?

What does it matter that we don’t know if Adam’s creation process took a few hours, minutes, seconds, or if it was instantaneous? All of those time references are plausible because they don’t contradict the fact that the scriptures say that he was created in one single day and that particular day was the sixth day of creation. That’s where your contradiction resides because you don’t believe that Adam was created on the 6th day of creation. How long it took is irrelevant as long as it took place from beginning to end on the 6th day.

 

[BeyondET]

There's the possibility you may be right, but what might need to happen, as is usually the case, your interlocutor needs to also engage your sources and/or related scholars from which you've drawn your conclusions. This in addition to taking your word for it.

I don't have a need to interlocutor

 

[BNR32FAN]

I told you about information to rebuild one animal to another are within cells its even in organs so there is no confusion. You just don't want to believe it was part of creation in the beginning and still is no need to be blind about it.

Yeah well, some people actually believe what is actually written in the scriptures, and some don’t. Thats what’s going on here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I don't have a need to interlocutor

What? So, you think you can simply come onto a public forum and expect people to be convinced all by your own rationalized lonesome?

Surely not. And by the way, an "interlocutor" (noun) is simply a discussion partner, whomever he or she may be.

 

[BeyondET]

What does it matter that we don’t know if Adam’s creation process took a few hours, minutes, seconds, or if it was instantaneous? All of those time references are plausible because they don’t contradict the fact that the scriptures say that he was created in one single day and that particular day was the sixth day of creation. That’s where your contradiction resides because you don’t believe that Adam was created on the 6th day of creation. How long it took is irrelevant as long as it took place from beginning to end on the 6th day.

I never said I don't believe Adam was created on the 6th day. And yes I agree it could of took 24 hours or 1.314 × 1013 hours

 

[BeyondET]

Yeah well, some people actually believe what is actually written in the scriptures, and some don’t. Thats what’s going on here.

So do I believe

 

[BNR32FAN]

I personally don't think that speculation about what method God used to create everything, is helpful. If God wanted us to know, He would have told us. He deliberately hid many such things from us and I believe He has a good reason for doing so.

Speculation can result in a wrong worldview, we have an abundance of things to learn about God. We can't even learn everything about the things He has revealed in on lifetime, let alone things He hid from us.

There’s nothing wrong with speculation if it doesn’t contradict what is written but we shouldn’t even hold our speculations to be true but merely hold them as a viable possibility.

 

[BNR32FAN]

So do I believe

Not according to this statement

Because a presto super sonic speed creation Isn’t logical. Even though its possible with God.